House Vendors

Zeon

I like having differences between the houses like this. Standardization reminds me that I'm in in a game world, small changes like differences between house structure really make things feel less scripted and more dynamic/realistic.

Also I always really liked Gods playing an active role in the lives of their followers. Especially Gods with a combative ideology. They should be bias towards their own end so it makes sense that they would do things to buff those that serve them.

Without completely unbalancing things. Active favours, oh getting perks like mounts, free resurrections when your God is around, etc etc. I always loved that.

Rispok

I dislike this regulation and normalcy, because I was shut down when I came up with the best idea ever.

Instead of buying furniture for our conference room which we rarely wind up using, magical chairs and table that would appear when you clap your hands together and say, "Bibbidy Bobbidi Boo"

Aerek

I don't like standardization across the board, but I do think there needs to be an even playing field across house estates and house items. First, every house estate should be susceptible to break-ins. I was 100% behind the no-prism change, because prism break-ins were annoying and just too easy, but you should be able to follow anyone into their estate if they're just that careless. If you can't do that, classes other than Serpent start to be the better second-story men.

Second, I don't remember why the SL scalemails or the SS items were crazy, but I actually don't mind border-line "OP" house items, as long as it's within reason and any House has an opportunity to get something like that for their own classes. It would be another concrete reason to favor housed players over rogues, and would make the stigma and paranoia about people getting your House items make sense. Right now, people flip out if some thief gets away with a bunch of Warden pipes or scabbards, and I just can't get myself worked up over it. If they got away with a bunch of stat-buffed Warden broadswords or special Warden falcon enhancement pellets, something that gave a mechanical advantage instead of just flavor, then I could get into the outrage and hunt them down.

Last, I don't like this idea that House vendors should just sell to anyone. That reinforces the mindset that NPCs are just mindless game mechanics, and I don't like that in a roleplaying game. Expecting Sir Phineus, the oldest surviving Runewarden, to sell his goods to just anyone who wanders in is a major breach of common sense, and I'm surprised that anyone would try to justify how it "makes sense". I think tutors'/vendors' wares being pick-pocket-able is a fantastic idea, and I'd even be okay with intruders buying our items if they came from shop-style WARES kiosks instead of our denizens, (The "attendants" are easier to hand-wave away) but expecting our loyal house denizens to sell to intruders is strange and foolish in my mind.

Sena

Aerek said:
Second, I don't remember why the SL scalemails or the SS items were crazy, but I actually don't mind border-line "OP" house items, as long as it's within reason and any House has an opportunity to get something like that for their own classes.

The scalemail was 68/53 (which is amazing, significantly better than even average splintmail), the whips were 74/150/205 (which, aside from the crappy to-hit, was amazing and far better than artefact whips (this was before lashes)), and both were really cheap.

Talonia

I agree with the points @Aerek and @Zeon made about standardization depriving us of some of the interesting flavor.  I also agree that it's a fine line between useful/interesting and really powerful, and so propose that if the items boost combat ability, they be minor boosts, but anything involving utility is fair game...here are some ideas for what kind of stuff should be more commonplace:

1. Give elder Phaesteans (like, the top five most highly ranked members of the Order) special flagons engraved with a hammer which automatically refill with ale.
2. Give consecrated Empyreal priests an amulet with the ability to do something like a CALL TO PRAYER which touches the hearts of all those who wear the devotion blessing and informs them a sermon is beginning in the area name where the priest who issued the prayer is standing.
3. Give Spiritwalkers a spirit rattle which, when shaken, restores like 1k willpower (and can only be shaken once per month).     

I also think you should either tie these to essence/shrines in the case of Orders (so have them be either accessed through rituals or as more frequently-used Order powers) or rituals/quests in the cases of Houses. 

Darklyre

I absolutely support the idea of letting serpents pickpocket denizens for items as well as gold. I'm also in support of not letting house vendors and denizens sell to everyone (except maybe the Crown Merchants, because they're supposed to sell to everyone), because it really does seem silly to let a Warden house tutor just sell to a random Naga who manages to get inside. I don't mind having HR requirements for various items, and in fact support expanding it, with maybe HR8 and above getting expanded selections, for example, to reward longevity and service.

While the idea of special house equipment with enhanced stats makes me iffy, I do like Aerek's idea of having special items that differ mechanically instead of just cosmetically. The problem is that each house has to make unique items, and they have to then not be crazy-overpowered for that house's unique set of classes. Nigh-artie weapons are definitely too much, and unique weapons/armor in general are troublesome because not all classes in a house can use them. SS whips, for example, if brought back, would be useless to the jesters in the SS house. Therefore, any unique house items with mechanical effects must either be non-weapon/armor, or each house would have to make a unique item for each class, which would present further difficulty if a house changes the classes it accepts.

Phaestus

@Talonia, my order isn't about ale, damn it all. Can't they have crafters folders+10 or something? Sewing kits? Jewellers pliers? Smithing aprons? Pottery wheels? Wood chippers to put Nerai in?

 

What is this thread about anyway?

 

Sorry... drunk...

Tvistor

Naga estate is 100% impossible to infiltrate at the moment if you make one alias, keep deafness up, remove your brazier and don't enter while someone has a puppet of you.

Silas

Just going from Keresis's message, the reason she refused to have the house vendor sell to only house members is an obviously IC one. There was no suggestion that it's garden standard to do this. Maybe the Mhaldorian tutors sell items to enemies to remind people not to be lax in their security.

Plus, not all Patrons are Thoth.

That said, I could easily get behind serpents being able to pickpocket House wares, with a sizeable chance of failure, so that there's some chance of a token of their break-in.

Aerek

Sena said:

Aerek said:
Second, I don't remember why the SL scalemails or the SS items were crazy, but I actually don't mind border-line "OP" house items, as long as it's within reason and any House has an opportunity to get something like that for their own classes.

The scalemail was 68/53 (which is amazing, significantly better than even average splintmail), the whips were 74/150/205 (which, aside from the crappy to-hit, was amazing and far better than artefact whips (this was before lashes)), and both were really cheap.

That's a little absurd, but I'm not completely against things like this as a rule. Maybe not 68/53, but if the Serpentlords had better-than-average scale mail, the Shadowsnakes had better-than-average whips, and the Naga had better-than-average darkbows, etc, as unique House draws, I'd be okay with that.

Edit: @Phaestus changed his avatar from the creepy smiley face. My year is ruined.

Iocun

Silas said:

Just going from Keresis's message, the reason she refused to have the house vendor sell to only house members is an obviously IC one.

Which strikes me as very weird to begin with. The wording of the last sentences is clearly an IC one, yet it's quite hard to justify an IC stance of "I'm fine with that denizen selling stuff to enemies and I'm not going to cut his head off for betrayal, because of some weird stuff that's called 'making bins'". Seems like a case of lacking IC-OOC separation to me.

Silas

Probably Keresis is next up for Bal'met now you pointed that out.

Good job, Iocun.

Darklyre

Aerek said:

Sena said:

Aerek said:
Second, I don't remember why the SL scalemails or the SS items were crazy, but I actually don't mind border-line "OP" house items, as long as it's within reason and any House has an opportunity to get something like that for their own classes.

The scalemail was 68/53 (which is amazing, significantly better than even average splintmail), the whips were 74/150/205 (which, aside from the crappy to-hit, was amazing and far better than artefact whips (this was before lashes)), and both were really cheap.

That's a little absurd, but I'm not completely against things like this as a rule. Maybe not 68/53, but if the Serpentlords had better-than-average scale mail, the Shadowsnakes had better-than-average whips, and the Naga had better-than-average darkbows, etc, as unique House draws, I'd be okay with that.

But again, there's the problem of there being multiple classes per house. Give the SS better-than-average whips and what do their jesters get? Or do you make separate items for serpents and jesters, in which case you get the MMO syndrome of "I don't care what it looks like as long as it has MOAR DPS?" Let's say that the SS gives out better-than-average whips and the SL gives out better-than-average scalemail and the Naga gives out better-than-average darkbows and the Dawnstri...anyways, what you're going to get is this:

Aerek

I don't see either of those as real issues. Houses can choose what items they sell to fit whatever classes they choose to, (or none at all if they're in to that whole Mojushai fairness thing) and they can describe them however they want. And unlike other MMOs, if you don't like the way your gear looks, you can pay to customize it.

House items will always be at the discretion of the Patrons, I was just saying that I don't think that actual, mechanical advantages should be automatically taboo in House items.

Darklyre

Aerek said:

I don't see either of those as real issues. Houses can choose what items they sell to fit whatever classes they choose to, (or none at all if they're in to that whole Mojushai fairness thing) and they can describe them however they want. And unlike other MMOs, if you don't like the way your gear looks, you can pay to customize it.

House items will always be at the discretion of the Patrons, I was just saying that I don't think that actual, mechanical advantages should be automatically taboo in House items.

No, what I'm saying is that if you have mechanical advantages in items, then the playerbase will naturally gravitate towards getting the ideal combination of those items. You're going to see people walking around with SL scalemail, SS whips, and Naga darkbows, when they belong to none of those houses. While rogues with house items (black market or former house member) is one thing, seeing every single serpent go for that combination of items (or any other class aiming for similar combinations) is going to be a bit OOC.

Jarrod

I personally think the whole 'denizens would never sell to enemies thing that'd be immersion breaking' is just people not wanting their House items spread about. There are plenty of easily RP-believable ways that the denizen could be tricked into selling or stolen from (pickpocket or murder), so why not just have them sell?

The immersion level is simply what you make it, and if your House vendor selling things to someone you didn't even know was inside is the breaker for you, sorry, but that's just silly.


Edit: Brief aside, on uniquely slightly better House items. In the example above, only the scalemail is worth anything in the end, as you could hypothetically upgrade to an artifact whip, and artifact bows would crush the custom House darkbow, but the scalemail would be an invaluable advantage. It's probably just not worth the hassle of balancing. The 'best' solution would be to have slightly -below- average items stat-wise that are customized to be RP-significant to the House, so you can have a cheaper alternative to item customization. I wouldn't care if a House had access to say, 56/23 scalemail that was customized for them. It would simply be something that looked cool that would be cool to obtain if possible, instead of something that gave them a mechanical advantage over every person forging scalemail in the game.

Aerek

If someone can manage to break into 3 separate house estates for their items, or pay someone do it for them, then more power to them. I don't see it as any more OOC than people going for the "best" artefacts, or that we all wield darkbows even though some of us don't like Hashan. When word gets out that someone builds a better mousetrap, and you're in the market for mousetraps, is it OOC to want one?

Tvistor

Yes.

No one actually uses suicidemice IG, Aerek.

God, learn to RP.

(But seriously, let them buy the items, whatever. Congregation/everyone don't seem to be crippled post break-in)

Lianca

I love the way the Sentinel items customisation works. You buy your spear and chainmail and one of their House denizens had a small storyline arc that now allows her to sentinelise these items if you give them to her. (I think for a cost, can't remember.) So you get nifty looking armour or weapon, still decays as normal, and not limited stats wise.

Jarrod

You can do the same thing with calvary shields, SoAs, and scalemail (not 100% positive on scalemail) from the Congregation's vendor.

Iocun

Jarrod said:

I personally think the whole 'denizens would never sell to enemies thing that'd be immersion breaking' is just people not wanting their House items spread about.

Trust me, I really couldn't care less if my house's items were spread out over all of Sapience. I never felt any sort of attachment to them. Nor did my character, really.

Rispok

Lianca said:

I love the way the Sentinel items customisation works. You buy your spear and chainmail and one of their House denizens had a small storyline arc that now allows her to sentinelise these items if you give them to her. (I think for a cost, can't remember.) So you get nifty looking armour or weapon, still decays as normal, and not limited stats wise.

It's a house NPC you can buy, costs like 50k or 100k, pretty cheap. Can be done once per item type per 5 ig years, I think each item takes 10k to do. You can have it done for anything your heart desires and your patron is willing to put in. Mercs have a gold rapier or something. I wouldn't let the vendor touch my rapiers with a 33 1/3 foot pole, though, not that I'm sure it would work on artefacts anyhow.

Tvistor

Silas said:

Probably Keresis is next up for Bal'met now you pointed that out.

Good job, Iocun.

...

God damn it.

Delphinus

Tvistor said:

Silas said:

Probably Keresis is next up for Bal'met now you pointed that out.

Good job, Iocun.

...

God damn it.

All the dying to ormyrr was just to distract from his true intent. :O

Silas

Called it again.

Tarkor

Phaestus said:

@Talonia, my order isn't about ale, damn it all. Can't they have crafters folders+10 or something? Sewing kits? Jewellers pliers? Smithing aprons? Pottery wheels? Wood chippers to put Nerai in?

 

What is this thread about anyway?

 

Sorry... drunk...

Damn it, we're not?

Nobody ever told me, and now I've been doing it wrong all that time!

Awan

Otha said:

There needs to be some evaluation and standardization across all of the houses.

Back on topic: Pickpocket for sure, and selling universally one way or the other.  No one-off houses.

I definitely agree with this. It shouldn't be that some house hall/order estate vendors will sell to anyone, but others get free trespasser-proofing because their vendor won't sell to any but housemates. There really ought to be more rules across the board for basic features like that.

I'm fine with the idea of House vendors selling special items which might give special bonuses in some fashion, so long as it's not excessive (like the SS whip). Houses have lots of options to differ from one another and for leaders and patrons to be creative, and they should. But there's no *interesting* variation to be had from the fact that some House vendors will sell to outsiders and some won't. In both cases everyone recognizes it as an OOC mechanic, not something with meaningful IC significance related to your House tutor's intentions or abilities. It's just a frustrating inequality.

My own vote would be for having all house hall vendors sell to anyone who shows up. Breaking into a House estate isn't that easy anymore; there should be a reward for doing it. Plus, if your tutor will only sell to housemates, the only way for people to get goods from your House tutor is to make an alt, buy everything, and switch sides, or to bribe newbies/alts into buying the goods and selling them. Since it is still going to be possible, I'd rather it be possible through non-stupidly annoying means.

Jiraishin

Awan said:

My own vote would be for having all house hall vendors sell to anyone who shows up. Breaking into a House estate isn't that easy anymore; there should be a reward for doing it.

I think this is a fair reason.

Awan said:

My own vote would be for having all house hall vendors sell to anyone who shows up. Plus, if your tutor will only sell to housemates, the only way for people to get goods from your House tutor is to make an alt, buy everything, and switch sides, or to bribe newbies/alts into buying the goods and selling them. Since it is still going to be possible, I'd rather it be possible through non-stupidly annoying means.

I think this is not.

Jacen

What if we did something completely different? House tutors only sell to house members, but pickpocketing the tutor gives a ~20% chance of lifting a key to a locked chest in the room where the tutor's wares are stored? Killing the tutor woulf force the tutor to drop the key 100% of the time. Key either resets in a short time or dissolves upon use.

Antonius

Awan said:

My own vote would be for having all house hall vendors sell to anyone who shows up. Breaking into a House estate isn't that easy anymore; there should be a reward for doing it.

I don't see why there should be a tangible reward for doing it, personally. Not everything has to have an additional reward attached to it after all.