House Vendors

Jarrod

Pretty simple, House Vendors should not be able to be set to only sell to House members, or another mechanic should be put in to enable non-members to purchase from all House vendors. I think anyone should be able to buy from them, as many classes have ways to break into a House Hall and get things from a vendor. If not something like that, let pickpocketing House vendors give a chance to lift some random item the denizen sells, with a decent chance they see the Serpent and 'call for help' over HT.

There's no 'RP' reasoning to why they shouldn't. If your argument is 'Oh, they would just not sell to people who aren't in the House!', then explain why you can't kill the vendor and simply take all the items they had for sale.

Iocun

Jarrod said:

There's no 'RP' reasoning to why they shouldn't. If your argument is 'Oh, they would just not sell to people who aren't in the House!', then explain why you can't kill the vendor and simply take all the items they had for sale.

I'm not sure what I still need to say in reply to your post since you stated the entire argument against it yourself. The argument that you might kill the vendor otherwise is quite meaningless because it's a different scenario. Just because I can't explain IC why there's a mechanical barrier that prohibits you from killing them and taking their stuff doesn't mean we should just open up a new thing we can't explain IC either.

I understand where you're coming from, with trespassing nowadays being much harder and still not very profitable, but just removing a sensible RP option for the sake of this would be a wrong solution to the issue.

If you want to argue that vendors should rather drop certain items on being killed - well, that's something I'd find discussable.

Jarrod

You could also say, with the classes that can illusion, and the existence of the Staff of Illusions, House Vendors could easily be tricked into thinking they -were- selling to House members.

Iocun

Sure, we can dig for explanations for it. But in the end, what it will appear like is still removing an aspect of sentience and realism from those denizens and turning them once more into vending machines.

Trust me, I'd have absolutely no issues with an enemy getting away with purchasing from a house vendor if they planned it as an elaborate scam, dressed in a house novice's uniform, crafted a bit of tricky magic and approached the denizen with a well-roleplayed theatrical act to obtain said goods. But obviously that's not what's going to happen. Rather, people will concentrate on the mechanical possibility of buying their stuff while otherwise being quite blatantly trespassing enemies who wear their Naga clothing, get hit by house totems, and storm into the room to buy every item off the denizen without speaking a single word. And I don't see why we should seek to reward that kind of approach by a change like this.

Orklanishkal

I kinda like the pickpocketing idea Jarrod proposed. Think it's a fair middle ground and doesn't destroy the sentience of house tutors. If I walk into a room with a house tutor as of now, they're not reporting it via HT, so it wouldn't detract by making them any less aware.

Iocun

Oh, didn't even see the pickpocketing idea when I first read the post. I could get behind that, sure.

Jarrod

I would figure assign them a relatively high level (Vertani, maybe?) to detect you, if they detect you you can't re-pickpocket them for a certain amount of time, and they report to HT based on how badly the pickpocket failed.


"Someone has just attempted to steal my wares!" vs "Jarrod has just attempted to steal my wares!"

Beya

I could get behind this.

Organisational raiding should have an equivalent of city raiding. A reward for the criminal as well as an easy to repair loss to the victim. This is a good step towards that sort of ethos.

Sherazad

What is this?! Our house vendor sells to anyone. ( Jarrod knows. 

Trey

LOL to Jarrod's first statement about Tutors selling to everyone. Sure-why-not to the pickpocket idea.

Rispok

One thing that's not mentioned is that house tutors are incredibly exceptional beings. My own house tutor is at the moment transcended in 31 skills (but really every single skill in the game, because that's how it works), and we only permit 4 classes in my house. I don't know the mechanics behind pickpocket, but I don't think 'Vertani' is an appropriate level for theft success on somebody who can cataclysm and vivisect you in viridian, while making a puppet as well.

Jiraishin

I don't know about your House, but our tutor and vendor are two separate denizens.

Sherazad

From what I remember, Merchants tutor also sells house stuff.

Rispok

She does. She was also one of the primary forces that noticed the whole green barrier in the north moving, when Istarion and Jeramun were found. I don't think you're going to fool her with a staff of illusions, or a newbie robe.

Nizaris

No to selling, yes to pickpocketing.

Delphinus

Tyrandiel and Epicurus aren't all-powerful beings, they're scholars. Just because a tutor knows something, that doesn't mean they can practice it.

OP: Yes, pickpocketing or something sounds fine. No, selling would be bad for the reasons Iocun listed.

Blujixapug

How does anyone get into your guildhall any more, now that they can't prism in? If they manage to do so - not easy - who seriously cares if they manage to lift a few vials or whatever as a prize. House wares refresh infinitely, so you aren't being deprived of goods. The indignity of having some messy-haired Serpentlord walking around with a dozen is the punishment for members of your House not practising security countermeasures before entering the estate. And it's a very light punishment.

Creating increasingly specific game mechanics to preserve "suspension of disbelief" - ie. why is the Ashura tutor selling to a dribbling, lisping, bulging-cheeked Naga who obviously shouldn't be there - is a futile endeavour. In the words of a wise not to mention handsome and charismatic man, "Pull not the thread lest the sweater unravel." There are always going to be things that don't hold up to scrutiny, that don't make sense. The proper course of action is to ignore them - not to attempt to smooth every single thing out. Otherwise you're implementing inventory weight limits to prevent people carrying around thirty mammoths, and then a realistic physics engine that reacts accordingly to dragons landing in the treetops, and then holocaust orbs unwisely stacked in retardation are causing nuclear fission and Tasur'ke is uninhabitable for the next thousand years.

Jiraishin

Blujixapug said:

Creating increasingly specific game mechanics to preserve "suspension of disbelief" - ie. why is the Ashura tutor selling to a dribbling, lisping, bulging-cheeked Naga who obviously shouldn't be there - is a futile endeavour.

I think you are thinking of the Serpentlords, not the Naga. We are all devastatingly handsome.

Chryenth

Blujixapug said:

...holocaust orbs unwisely stacked in retardation are causing nuclear fission and Tasur'ke is uninhabitable for the next thousand years.

I really want to try this. Not on Tasur'ke, though.

Maybe Hashan.

Delphinus

@Blujixapug: Nothing important ever came of mammoth corpses, but in games like this, "Why did our merchant supply those items?" becomes the elephant in the room. It's the unique and sometimes awkward place of interactive fiction, where the characters themselves are forced to make excuses for a plot hole. You can't explain every possible detail, of course; the trick is to explain the things that most people care about.

To use Captain Reynolds' example, no one cares about cell phone emergency lock whatever because it's unneeded fluff. But if a loyal merchant is just blindly selling things to an enemy? That's kind of a huge deal. It's possibly treason. Everyone has a vested interest in that, and it's frustrating when there's no real answer in sight.

For me, the best solutions address things from both sides. I'd actually like to be able to loot a few of the wares from fallen NPC merchants, though this would probably make some expensive items far too easy to obtain.

Xith

Sounds like unanimous yes to pickpocketing house tutors. I vote yes too even though I don't have a personal stake in it.

Iocun

edit: ignore.

Favonius

I like the idea of serpents being able to pickpocket items from denizen vendors in general - perhaps with increasing risk for higher value items.

A serpent thief trying to steal maps from Captain Maelstrom - and, likely as not, getting curbstomped for their trouble - well that would add a lot of RP-consistent flavour to the class.

Trey

Delphinus said:

For me, the best solutions address things from both sides. I'd actually like to be able to loot a few of the wares from fallen NPC merchants, though this would probably make some expensive items far too easy to obtain.

Great. Now all I can picture is some asshole stabbing a stablehand repeatedly and then rummaging through his pockets screaming "GIVE UP THE FOOZLING PEGASUS!"

Chord

Another yes to pickpocketing items from denizen vendors. No to selling to non-House members, though.

Hermaldo

I like the idea of pickpocketing from any denizen that sells items, just a small chance. Kinda adds to the thief living off his craft roleplay...

Someone wants to romance a lady..pickpocket Lisagia or whatever that flower girls' name is
Want to get drunk, pickpocket a barkeep...
Someone wants to write a book, steal a manuscript from that atavian bookbinder guy or whatever
Want to sell house items for a profit, steal from a tutor...

I like the idea of a semi-low chance(25%? and then an even chance of all the items they carry?) to actually palm an item off a denizen that carries items.

Sherazad

If the change to pickpocketing a house denizen goes through, Mhaldor might have a use for shards again. 

Ruth

This is back when I was HL of Black Lotus. Seems standards are a little off.

   5332  Artemis      12/20/3:53
 Kai-Shen now only sells to those of the Black Lotus, though others who ask him wares will see that
he sells things - they simply won't see anything listed.

Compare that to when I asked Keresis if I could set the items for EF members only, I got told that I couldn't. This was the reason and I expect (or rather it was my perception) it should have been a game-wide regulation.

p 13482  Keresis      12/09/0:29
 It will cost 50,000 gold to have a bin created to serve only members of the KOJ clan. It will not
be necessary to have one created for all members of the House as you are expected not to be foolish
enough to allow outsiders to enter. If they do get in, then your punishment shall be to see your
items in the hands of the heathens.

So I'll say yes to fixing it so even non-House members can purchase items off House vendors. Also allow a chance % of lifting house items off them.

Otha

I agree with Ruth.  The problem, as with 99% of house specific things, are that they aren't consistent across divine.  SS whips, SL scalemail, Druid househall, etc.  There needs to be some evaluation and standardization across all of the houses.

Back on topic: Pickpocket for sure, and selling universally one way or the other.  No one-off houses.

Iocun

Those OP whips and scalemail were shut down pretty quick when it was publicised though, no?

And the druid househall only has increased security because it (along with the CIJ one) is the only one that doesn't have further security from being in a city.

Generally, most house patrons do seem to be following similar standards and I get the feeling that the administration is now enforcing standards more rigidly than they used to, after that SS whip thing came up.

Otha

So why, then, are the CIJ estate and Druid not equivalent?  99% is a massive overstatement, I will give you that.

I realize there is a desire for unique little items, but mechanic differences should not be allowed.  Is it still a problem?  Yes.  To the extent as it was, as often as it was?  No.

AFAIK the SL scalemails only were noticed when I ran off with them, and they were made to decay.  The SS whips were leaked to the forums and they (as well as all the other items) were rapidly addressed.