Org Alliances Not Valid Unless Mutual

Kogan

Okay, so recently I had issued to get the org name for Iskadar to ally them to Kongol Drak, the dwarven high clan, so that we could defend them. The response is below:

2017/4/06/17:19 Greetings! In regards to your issue#79344: The org is iskadarpriests. Though do note 

that Kongol Drak has no reason to defend Iskadar unless Iskadar mutually agrees to the alliance. If 

you have any further questions or concerns, please file them through an ISSUE ME!

So this has got me questioning some other relations I see across the board and I'd also like to give a fair warning to people who defend areas not mutually allied. I'll give one example using Ashtan, and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone as I have definitely enemied people to Kongol Drak for hunting areas not mutually allied and was ready to defend if need be. Just wanting to get everyone's opinion on it and perhaps some clarification. Ashtan is allied to Thera. Just Thera. Yet defends Maim which by all technicalities is a different area entirely (Maim's Mansion). Maim's is not on CITY RELATIONS ASHTAN. It's only bothersome when you consider the number of people who have been attacked or in the worst case been enemied to Ashtan for it. All this when by going off my issue... should not be allowed. So I'm looking to get a feel on how everyone interprets it. Plenty of other cities/orgs/clans have defended areas that are not even mutually allied at all. A good example to look at is Mhaldor. They're mutually allied to all the places I'd expect them to defend and not just a one-way ally. I don't believe in stalling city/org/clan RP until the Garden can set up a neat RP event for you in which the area/org accepts or declines the alliance, but I also don't believe in just letting people have RP opportunities wiped away with a whole city because relations are not being used correctly and they made a mistake. I'd like to think common sense could be used and if someone is an ass after a warning they might as well expect to get enemied/attacked, but we all know there are those people who will get technical and issue and I'd rather not be on the losing end of one. 

I do recognize that everyone's Patron/Divine may not be readily available to help out with the mutual ally status or any RP events that may or may not be a part of the process. If anyone has any ideas for a more streamlined process that is not prone to being abused for lolpk opportunities I'd love to hear.

Farrah

Well, to clarify, cities can enemy for anything they want. They could literally say "All people who do not live in our city will be enemies."

The issue response was about defending, as in, actually attacking people who hunt the place.

Shirszae

Cities can enemy for whatever reason they feel like. And Occultists (Ashtani ones, at least. Maybe?) probably have enough RP reason to attack you for attacking Maim.

Eta: Farrah is op ninja.

Kogan

Farrah said:

Well, to clarify, cities can enemy for anything they want. They could literally say "All people who do not live in our city will be enemies."

The issue response was about defending, as in, actually attacking people who hunt the place.

Sure, clarifies that. I guess I should only be asking in the context of defending then. Too late to edit though. 

Shirszae said:

Cities can enemy for whatever reason they feel like. And Occultists (Ashtani ones, at least. Maybe?) probably have enough RP reason to attack you for attacking Maim.

Eta: Farrah is op ninja.

Sounds legit. I used it as a rough example though there are many cases where RP reasoning would likely not apply. I'm not sure how I would not have a RP reason to attack those killing off my race considering in the High Clan there are dwarven clans/families if you will (some of which denizens are a part of as well!).

Asmodron

Yep cities can enemy for anything. It comes down to whom is in charge and how they run things. With the current mentality of those in charge in ashtan, you'll just be outright enemied and none will blink an eye.

Maim is a famous occultist, so attacking her will just draw the ire of the chaos inclined Ashtan. They dont need or even ask for mechanical reasoning behind it. You hit someone that is connected to their alignment, it is good enough for them.

Their connection to Thera is pretty old and ancient and frankly most there probably dont even remember why they are allied. It is something that predates the current renaissance changed Ashtan. They will still use it to their advantage to pk those that are attacking guards.

Ryzeth

Kogan said:
 I'm not sure how I would not have a RP reason to attack those killing off my race considering in the High Clan there are dwarven clans/families if you will (some of which denizens are a part of as well!).

You don't have an RP reason, because your clan isn't mutually allied with them. Kinda simple really. Your comparison also falls short as well, you're just arguing semantics there. Maim's Mansion is a part of Thera; just because it shows differently on SURVEY that doesn't mean it's not part of Thera. Much like the Tsol'aa Village is still part of Aalen Forest.

Kayeil

I don't think he really has a problem with Ashtan doing so, it was just an example. What about an Order like the Gaians who allied to Genji, but Genji didn't ally back? And why can't Kongol Drak defend dwarves if they are the racial high clan and have relatives in those denizen areas? I don't think Kogan has an issue at all with what Ashtan has been doing forever now, more that it sucks Kongol Drak is being halted in what it was doing because now the admins are telling him Kongol Drak cannot do this without a mutual alliance. At what level is the mutual alliance needed? High clans only? Orders? The general consensus so far seems to feel that cities are immune to this. 

Ryzeth

Kayeil said:

And why can't Kongol Drak defend dwarves if they are the racial high clan and have relatives in those denizen areas?

Just because you're the same race, doesn't mean you're related. Sorry. Ryzeth's atavian, has been his entire life. Doesn't mean he's related to Arcadia or Genji atavians.

The Org type isn't a factor. It's whether or not you've actually got a REAL background surrounding why you should be allied. Ashtan killing people hunting in Thera = legal. Mhaldor killing people in Enverren/Blackrock = legal. People in Kongol Drak clan killing dwarf hunters = illegal. Follow the process that GoM did with Moghedu if you want the same rights.

Asmodron

Technically based on pk rules, he has RP reasoning behind assaulting those he sees attacking dwarves and heck can even choose to enemy. He just has to also handle the repercussions of being hired on. Any issue would likely fail against him if he gave fair warning beforehand and showcased why he has RP reasoning behind his assaulting.


As for attempting to ally, the only thing you can do is keep up your attempt and show you are persistent to see it through. Speak to dwarves there, send letters to the head. Someone will eventually notice.

Kogan

Ryzeth said:

Kogan said:
 I'm not sure how I would not have a RP reason to attack those killing off my race considering in the High Clan there are dwarven clans/families if you will (some of which denizens are a part of as well!).

You don't have an RP reason, because your clan isn't mutually allied with them. Kinda simple really. Your comparison also falls short as well, you're just arguing semantics there. Maim's Mansion is a part of Thera; just because it shows differently on SURVEY that doesn't mean it's not part of Thera. Much like the Tsol'aa Village is still part of Aalen Forest.

Asmodron said:

Maim is a famous occultist, so attacking her will just draw the ire of the chaos inclined Ashtan. They dont need or even ask for mechanical reasoning behind it. You hit someone that is connected to their alignment, it is good enough for them.

Yeah, and some dwarf denizens are quite influential within the clan and Phaestus' order as well. That's why I don't understand the idea that I can't find a RP reason to defend them. High Clan aside. If I'm a like minded dwarf I fail to see the issue as long as its not lolpked and can actually be justified.

Kayeil

Ryzeth said:

Kayeil said:

And why can't Kongol Drak defend dwarves if they are the racial high clan and have relatives in those denizen areas?

Just because you're the same race, doesn't mean you're related. Sorry. Ryzeth's atavian, has been his entire life. Doesn't mean he's related to Arcadia or Genji atavians.

The Org type isn't a factor. It's whether or not you've actually got a REAL background surrounding why you should be allied. Ashtan killing people hunting in Thera = legal. Mhaldor killing people in Enverren/Blackrock = legal. People in Kongol Drak clan killing dwarf hunters = illegal. Follow the process that GoM did with Moghedu if you want the same rights.

This isn't the same for Kongol Drak. The family clans in which they join have actual denizen relatives throughout realms.

Kogan

Asmodron said:

Technically based on pk rules, he has RP reasoning behind assaulting those he sees attacking dwarves and heck can even choose to enemy. He just has to also handle the repercussions of being hired on. Any issue would likely fail against him if he gave fair warning beforehand and showcased why he has RP reasoning behind his assaulting.


As for attempting to ally, the only thing you can do is keep up your attempt and show you are persistent to see it through. Speak to dwarves there, send letters to the head. Someone will eventually notice.

I'm in contact with the head of the clan on the matter. I'm just trying to figure out at what point am I just flat out wrong. I always warn people we protect before doing anything. Was a bit surprised to be told in an issue that as a dwarf in a high clan that defends dwarves I have no reason to defend them when Phaestus' set up some of the "clans within the High Clan". One of which, that I happen to be in, was the first combat clan created by Phaestus.

Ryzeth

Asmodron said:

Technically based on pk rules, he has RP reasoning behind assaulting those he sees attacking dwarves and heck can even choose to enemy. 

Sure, he can enemy. Orgs can enemy for whatever the hell they want. Based on PK rules he can't kill them though, if you want to bring that up. Org Relations exist for a reason.

Kogan said:
<Asmodron quote>

As I already said, Maim's Mansion is a part of Thera. Being an Occultist isn't the reason they use for defending her. She is Theran. Also if the Admin are directly telling you that you have no justifiable reason, then chances are you don't. Just saying.

Accipiter

@Kayeil Yeah, but the clan itself doesn't have blanket protection because Iskadar hasn't allied to the Clan.

I am sure on an individual basis players have RP reasons to defend specific denizens but without admin saying 'Yeah, we are OK with this' you don't get to choose an entire area to PK freely in.

Kogan

Ryzeth said:

As I already said, Maim's Mansion is a part of Thera. Being an Occultist isn't the reason they use for defending her. She is Theran. Also if the Admin are directly telling you that you have no justifiable reason, then chances are you don't. Just saying.

That's exactly why I said some of the denizens. Not just all of them. If you're hunting one specifically affiliated with our clan in one of these areas I do not see the problem.

Ryzeth

Kogan said:
That's exactly why I said some of the denizens. Not just all of them. If you're hunting one specifically affiliated with our clan in one of these areas I do not see the problem.

If, when you LOOK at them, it does not show up as 'He/She is loyal to <anything your clan is allied with>.' then that is the problem, when it comes to defending them.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Kogan

Ryzeth said:

Kogan said:
That's exactly why I said some of the denizens. Not just all of them. If you're hunting one specifically affiliated with our clan in one of these areas I do not see the problem.

If, when you LOOK at them, it does not show up as 'He/She is loyal to <anything your clan is allied with>.' then that is the problem, when it comes to defending them.

What is so hard to understand about that?

She is loyal to Maim's Mansion. <--- I don't know maybe this while you're at it. 

Just as her line says Maim's though she's Theran. Some of these say Sirrocian Dwarves in dwarven camp... but are part of clans we also belong to.

He is loyal to Siroccian Dwarves.

Adalgar, chieftain of the Siroccian encampment says, "We are of Clan Orcsplitter, sworn to bring down the orcs for their crimes against the dwarves, but we don't get to hunt them down nearly often enough."

What is so hard to understand about that?

Asmodron

Ryzeth said:

Asmodron said:

Technically based on pk rules, he has RP reasoning behind assaulting those he sees attacking dwarves and heck can even choose to enemy. 

Sure, he can enemy. Orgs can enemy for whatever the hell they want. Based on PK rules he can't kill them though, if you want to bring that up. Org Relations exist for a reason.

Kogan said:
<Asmodron quote>

As I already said, Maim's Mansion is a part of Thera. Being an Occultist isn't the reason they use for defending her. She is Theran. Also if the Admin are directly telling you that you have no justifiable reason, then chances are you don't. Just saying.

Pk rules say if you have a justifiable rp reason to attack someone, you can. This was part of the big change in the past that pushed us away from cut and paste pk rules to the more realistic version we have now.

Being part of the dwarf clan that seeks to protect and commune with all dwarves, and attacking those that assault dwarven homes, seems pretty damn justifiable...

He just needs to also handle the repercussions that come with it

Accipiter

Kogan said:

What is so hard to understand about that?

Nothing is hard to understand about it, we just disagree with your conclusions. Maim is a single denizen with a couple of friends hanging around her home, you can kill the zombies and stuff in her labyrinth all you want as far as I know. Not every dwarf denizen in the world. If you have a specific favorite dwarf and tell people that if they kill it you will kill them, probably justifiable. If you say 'Anyone killing any dwarf will be killed' well that is probably along the lines of 'Being a psychopath is not a valid RP reason to kill people'.

This is of course a middle ground, but the admins make certain areas for bashing, some of those areas have dwarves. If they don't want to let an entire High Clan kill anyone who uses the area for the specific purpose it was designed for, that is their choice to make.

Kogan

Accipiter said:

Kogan said:

What is so hard to understand about that?

Nothing is hard to understand about it, we just disagree with your conclusions. Maim is a single denizen with a couple of friends hanging around her home, you can kill the zombies and stuff in her labyrinth all you want as far as I know. Not every dwarf denizen in the world. If you have a specific favorite dwarf and tell people that if they kill it you will kill them, probably justifiable. If you say 'Anyone killing any dwarf will be killed' well that is probably along the lines of 'Being a psychopath is not a valid RP reason to kill people'.

This is of course a middle ground, but the admins make certain areas for bashing, some of those areas have dwarves. If they don't want to let an entire High Clan kill anyone who uses the area for the specific purpose it was designed for, that is their choice to make.

I threw that in there because I'd explained it already so it came across as condescending when he asked me the same question prior. I get it. I was not asking to try and pk every dwarf killer without being mutually allied. I was asking about particular dwarves as mentioned in an earlier post when I said some of the dwarves are in fact influential. I would not expect to win an issue for pking someone who was hunting a dwarf miner (unless mutually allied and warning prior), but I think I'll be okay if I decided to pk someone hunting a named dwarf denizen that has relations to the high clan after warning them to stop. 

Frederich

There are certain dwarves that are A-Okay to kill (from an IC perspective; the ones in Creville need to be released from their suffering).

Going after the tribes of dwarves, however, considering there are... three tribes???  Iskander, Inbhir Ness, Siroccians (Orc Cutter??? or something)... I think it'd be relatively safe to say that he's pretty justified if that's his character to go murder folks that he catches in the act at those places.  Especially Inbhir Ness.  It can lead to a strong RP front for his character if he decided that he, himself, is from any of those clans and defends his home.  Just like how Frederich will kill people that he sees hunting his hometown.

Shirszae

In the end, all you were told is that using the reasoning that your clan is allied to those places is invalid ford defending them. You can always try to claim you have some other valid RP reason that does not hinge on organizational alliance and see how it goes.  Just remember to always give ample warning and such to people before any attack is made.

Klendathu

As a player whose character committed Dwaven Genocide, I'd be perfectly OK with being attacked in Iskadar by a member of the Kongol Drak clan on the following conditions:

1. I was warned by the individual
2. I was enemied to the Kongol Drak clan
3. I was still attacking dwarves

These are the same rules I apply for Arcadia and Erymanthus (people attacking atavians, not dwarves, pedants )

Kayeil

I will say Kongol Drak does NOT protect every single dwarf out there, neither do the Phaesteans. You won't see them come running to save a Blackrock dwarf's hide. As mentioned before, I don't think they protect Creville dwarves either. There are 3 very specific denizen areas they focus on.

Also, based on what I've heard Eril and Faur tell Kogan... he does warn and explain beforehand, then observes what they do next. If they continue they get enemied, then potentially attacked. I have yet to see Kogan just full on attack someone without ample warning and explanation of what is going on. Most of the time they move on and hunt elsewhere, but a few have said that it is okay to enemy them.

Asmodron

I dont know about you guys but I would love to see zealous dwarves attacking in a frenzy to defend their brethen.

Ahmet

So, the issue I see here isn't with enemying. Cities can enemy for whatever they want. So can clans. Even OOC clans.

The problem is, why does Ashtan have RP reason to attack people hunting Petra, but Kongoldrak doesn't? (Ashtan is mutually allied with Thera, so that's out the window)
Or, do they not?

Krypton

Ashtani can't defend Petra.

Bann

Krypton said:

Ashtani can't defend Petra.

Last time I checked, Ashtan DOES defend Petra.

Krypton

Then point out they're not mutually allied. It's the same issue as Kogan wanting to defend Iskadar -- if there is a supportable RP stance, it isn't (currently) found via ORG RELATIONS.

Bann

I mean I'm not trying to fite you bro. I see what you're saying. All -I'm- saying is that they DO.

Krypton

Lmao, I know you're not

I'm just connecting the dots:
Ashtani defending Petra ≠ Ashtani have reason to defend Petra