Org Alliances Not Valid Unless Mutual

Jonathin

I don't understand. Try to connect with Iskadar and see if they want to be mutual allies?

Aegoth

you should defend blackrock first

Frederich

P. sure KongolDrak & Phaestians as a whole do not defend the Blackrock dwarves and are perfectly fine to murder them.

Melodie

I'mma murder your face.

Frederich

Bring it, man stealer.

Asmodron

Frederich said:

Bring it, man dwarf stealer.

FTFY

Asmodron

As for Ashtan defending Petra, that too is part of the previous old alliance Ashtan had with Petra...which was dissolved some time ago when the events took place that made Petra into the ghost-town it currently is. It really does feel like someone has simply not updated Ashtani about their alliances.

Ahmet

Back when I joined Kongol Drak I was told explicitly not to hunt Blackrock and that they were protected. I dunno if that changed or if I was lied to.

Marisella

What if the Dwarves of Iskadar don't want to be defended and want to rely on their own strength to push out invaders? I think that's the reason for the necessity of mutual org alliances. They are pretty strong by themselves already. Have you ever asked them if they wanted to be protected?

Krypton

Certainly for a while, if not still, Kongol Drak encouraged showing Blackrock mercy/compassion, so that they might one day "see the light" and return to worshiping Phaestus.

Kyrra

Ashtan still offers Petra protection but since it's not mutual, we're basically just told not to hunt there. It's not defended in the way Thera is because of that status and Petra wants to look after itself.

The Atavians racial clan has squat to do with any city or organisation but there's always been policies in place to enemy people that hunt Atavians. It's also a massively dead and somewhat outdated clan in general, and I don't think people remotely care about an enemy status with that clan.

Taryius

If you have roleplay justification to protect an area, I think it's fine to do so. 

But there is a big difference between jumping people in Iskadar like it's Annwyn, and defending it. Give a warning, tell people to cease their actions before taking up arms. If they continue to hunt, or you've warned them in the past go right ahead.

Also, some might disagree with me, but I don't think you'd have reasonable cause to jump someone days later for where they hunt. Don't warn someone, and then next friday gank them with 3+ people while they're hunting moghedu because they killed some Iskadar dwarves.

Krypton

Taryius said:

Also, some might disagree with me, but I don't think you'd have reasonable cause to jump someone days later for where they hunt. Don't warn someone, and then next friday gank them with 3+ people while they're hunting moghedu because they killed some Iskadar dwarves.

Heh. If they disagree with you, they'd be flat-out wrong.

Denizen Alliances clearly states you can only attack on the denizen grounds you're defending. Ashtan can only pursue/defend within Thera; Mhaldor can only pursue/defend within Blackrock; etc. Once your target leaves the area, getting them to leave is already your "victory"... you cannot pursue them anywhere else anymore. Even if you've warned them.

Nicola

@Marisella hit the nail on the head, every denizen village, outpost, town, settlement has their own way of doing things and their own beliefs (and even interpretation of beliefs). Players can only claim reason to defend a denizen group if the denizen group requests it of them (or accepts the offer of defence).

To look at the Genji situation, they're only allied by the Gaians and don't reciprocate it in return because they feel a kinship with some of the Gaian teachings, and want to pay homage to Gaia and Her ways without actively following Her and miring themselves in the perpetual broil of struggle that is Nature faction versus the world. They were very concerned as a group that formally allying with Gaia's order would paint a bigger target on their little village and didn't want to borrow more trouble than they already experienced.

The Iskadar dwarves don't traditionally follow and revere Phaestus in the ways that Siroccian or the Inbhir Ness Dwarves do, although they do hold the DwarfFather in high esteem. There are some really interesting reasons for this and the way their society has developed and I'll not spoil the joy of finding out why here. Safe to say you can't just say they're dwarves, they love us and want to be part of the clans of the world. They have and hold their own history, hangups, and opinions.

Antonius

But if you're already ignoring the need for mutual alliances because you have "roleplay reasons" to defend that area, why would you bother following any of the other rules involved?

Kogan

Antonius said:

But if you're already ignoring the need for mutual alliances because you have "roleplay reasons" to defend that area, why would you bother following any of the other rules involved?

I'm not sure if you were asking me or just in general, but to be honest I was not aware of the need for mutual alliance until the issue. I haven't attacked anyone for hunting in Iskadar or any dwarf area for that matter yet. I've been ready to, but have not and do not plan to unless I'm within the rules. My question to @Nicola is about specific dwarves like Adalgar in the Dwarven camp for example. He happens to be a part of the Dwarven clan Orcsplitter and will even mention that if you say Orc/Orcs around him. So do many adventurer dwarves though. Would that be justifiable RP reasoning for them to defend him if they were not allied mutually? After have received clarification I would not defend a dwarf that was outside of my actual clan unless a mutual ally with the clan existed. I'm not here to break the rules at all and that's why I asked here instead of just going out. Could have asked in another issue, but I've known other orgs to defend places not mutual so brought it here. 

Nicola

As far as I'm aware with Kongol Drak no outside dwarven denizens are affiliated with the clans setup within (if I remember right some of the clans setup inside the overhead of the Dwarven Highclan were in terms of lore deemed to be destroyed centuries before the modern era.)

Kogan

Nicola said:

As far as I'm aware with Kongol Drak no outside dwarven denizens are affiliated with the clans setup within (if I remember right some of the clans setup inside the overhead of the Dwarven Highclan were in terms of lore deemed to be destroyed centuries before the modern era.)

We still have Orcsplitter which still has an adventurer Chieftain and members within it. The same clan as Adalgar by name.

Edit: From the wiki because lazy but is factual -  Adalgar, chieftain of the Siroccian encampment is a warrior from Clan Orcsplitter, a clan of Dwarves devoted to combating orcs.

Also - The Orcsplitter clan is one of ten clans of the Kongol Drak, which comprise Dwarven civilisation.

Nicola

@Kogan Right, that doesn't necessarily mean that Adalgar ever recognised these clan subsets within the player only organisation, he was a clan member, and the clans existed long before Kongol Drak became a thing and no one asked him or the other dwarves who their chieftains should be or if they should all join under the Kongol Drak flag. AFAIK Kongol Drak is (currently) separate from the denizen clans unless an active clan patron works things otherwise.

Kogan

Nicola said:

@Kogan Right, that doesn't necessarily mean that Adalgar ever recognised these clan subsets within the player only organisation, he was a clan member, and the clans existed long before Kongol Drak became a thing and no one asked him or the other dwarves who their chieftains should be or if they should all join under the Kongol Drak flag. AFAIK Kongol Drak is (currently) separate from the denizen clans unless an active clan patron works things otherwise.

Thanks! Will seek to RP then to find out more about these denizen clans who happen to share a clan name given by Phaestus Himself! If only we could ask Him directly!

Krypton

I think Nicola's post pretty much insinuates that outside of mutual alliance, there are no "acceptable roleplay reasons" to defend denizens.

Players forget that, from an IC RP standpoint, denizens are living, breathing, thinking, capable independents. If they want your help, they can decide that autonomously. Adventurers are outsiders to their thoughts, and would only know what a denizen community really feels/wants when that community discloses it expressly.

Even sharing a last name or family clan with a denizen doesn't make you privy to their desires.

Asmodron

This doesnt seem to make much sense in relation to acts of the past.

I'm pretty sure Moghedu defends itself, as can be seen by the amount of guards and knights they have stationed at the entrance to their tunnel, yet the 'Guardians of Moghedu' clan had went out of their way to attack those hunting there. We even saw mini-events focused in Moghedu where the mhun not only became more militaristic but also barely 'condoned' the presence of GoM. Are you telling me these same mhun had asked GoM to defend them? I find it hard to believe..


Additionally in the past, I recall when atavians and loyalists to Vastar would defend Arcadia from attackers. Arcadia is pretty well-fortified and able to handle itself, but we were allowed to defend it. Arcadia didnt ask for us to defend it, but it was merely in association that it is an Atavian home (and at the time the major home) as well they worshiped Vastar (unlike Genji, for Vastar loyalists). Perhaps because this had a divine influence mixed into it that made it different? Not sure, but it seems pretty similar to what was mentioned above, and we were not only allowed to defend Arcadia but commended for it.


So I have to say im pretty confused when this rule appeared that only if the Org specifically asks you to defend it, are you allowed to...

Shirszae

Well. Just because we are not privy to the reasons for both those villages accepting help doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, they just need to accept the offer to help. For whatever reason. Theoretically, even if they think they can defend themselves, they might accept it for some reason.

Antonius

@Kogan My post was specifically in response to Krypton's explanation of the rules regarding following, etc. when defending a mutually allied area, though Nicola posted in between so some of the intended context was probably lost.

With regards to the Guardians of Moghedu, as far as I know (and I'm not even close to an expert), the clan was explicitly set up to defend Moghedu, and they had at one time a mutual alliance with Moghedu explicitly to make their defending legal and legitimate. That alliance does indicate acceptance of said defence on the part of Moghedu, since it was literally all the GoM was offering.

Ryzeth

Pretty sure Vastar expressly asked His order to defend Arcadia. Need @Klendathu to verify that though... Slight difference there between them and the GoM high clan, where they actually have RP justification for defending Arcadia (they might very well be mutually allied too, I'm not in the order to see that)

Krypton

All alliances are public information.

ORG RELATIONS ALLIED

Organisational Alliances
MUTUALLY ALLIED:
Moghedu and Gom
Vastar and Arcadia

Ryzeth

Well shit, I didn't even know you could check public relations. Guess that further goes against Asmo's comparison then, with Kongol.

Keorin

Am I the only one a little sad about how many codified rules go into what makes up an "rp reason" to attack someone?

Ahmet

Keorin said:

Am I the only one a little sad about how many codified rules go into what makes up an "rp reason" to attack someone?

Yes. You are the only one. People stretch things, pull reasons out of thin air, and come up with bullshit wayyyy too often as-is. They don't need more.

Keorin

That people are upset whenever mass-murdering communities of npc's has repercussions makes sense from the perspective of achaea as a video game. In-world, it seems pretty silly that Keorin couldn't defend the place of her birth from rampaging murderers that the denizens can't handle.

In some games, your character can be killed permanently as long as there's some sort of roleplayed reason for it. In achaea, you lose 5% of your level, and you basically have to gotten pvp flagged or people will get upset and bring in admins. Can't say it makes much sense to me.