Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 6.2K All Categories
- 3.1K Everything Achaea
- 1.5K North of Thera
- 26 Archives of the Terraformer
- 257 The Matsuhama Arena
- 885 The Golden Dais of Creation
- 299 The Scarlattan Theatre
- 149 The Blank Canvas
- 2K Getting Help
- 412 General Questions
- 258 Quick Class Questions
- 1.3K Tech Support
- 313 Client Help
- 486 Curing Systems and Scripts
- 841 Off-Topic
- 255 The Wander Inn
- 586 The Universal Membrane
- 298 Class Discussions
- 298 Individual Class Sections
- 20 Alchemist
- 9 Apostate
- 30 Blademaster
- 9 Depthswalker
- 14 Druid
- 4 Infernal
- 20 Jester
- 19 Magi
- 34 Monk
- 11 Occultist
- 8 Paladin
- 7 Priest
- 29 Runewarden
- 18 Sentinel
- 26 Serpent
- 20 Shaman
- 9 Sylvan
Comments
Targossas' (or at least the Harbinger's) approach to HR is.. really god damn tedious. I got to skip a bit because I'm not a complete twit, and also level 100, but.. You have to go through the Academy to learn about Good. Which is already a pain enough in the ass to make you go "GOD DAMNIT". You've gotta learn to hunt, etc etc. All while Targ gets raided and you're told to go cower and hide, or some other equivalent. Not necessarily a bad thing, but whatever.
HR1-3, in Cyrene, is literally the newbie steps (was the same for like. Merchants too). You get to HR3 for just not sucking. Which, sure, not exactly an issue, but it also gives a basic history/knowledge of the city and house in general. Sweet, you may think. Well...
Targossas teaches that in the academy (probably). Harbingers you get to HR1. need to get 3 points to get to HR2. leading prayers, collecting books that the city/house doesn't already have, possibly having a theological debate (which is
Not that there really is any incentive to do so besides "SLIGHTLY CHEAPER CREDITS!!!" Which is in and of itself, an issue. There's no real damn incentive besides raising in house rank outside of slightly decreased prices of credits, with bound being ultimately cheaper. The hours I can put in working between HR4 and HR5 will likely be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 8-10 hours of work. 8-10 hours of work that I could just put in hunting. Not that that isn't tedious to do now that I hit level 99.
Now, this isn't to say that I'm hating on the Harbingers. They're really sweet, it's just god damn awkward of a transition between Cyrene to Targossas where the Houses are forced to teach people shit vs the Academy, which holds no real ground outside of the newbies. Which I mean. Hey, that''s kinda nice. It just has DAMN HARSH requirements to raise up in the house. Also city ranks are different, but you have to work your ass off to keep them, as compared to Cyrene's one-and-done sort of ordeal unless you fuck up and get city disfavoured and 4 months of work just gets destroyed in and instant because you killed a city mate who asked you to be killed.
All in all, houses give a lot of busy work for no real damn reason. The difference between being in a house, and not being in a house, is there's a bit of immersion to be gained from having other people to talk to, and even goof off with. Generally leading to cities being divided in half, or into thirds, and folks liking to hang out more-so with their buddies in their half/third over folks with-out. Course, just going houseless causes you to get a bit less in the way of credits, but you hang out with everyone and just sort of not have to worry about house deadlines looming over your head like a wicked game of whack-a-mole.
In fairness to Targ, I've heard a lot of Targ players say that they think the city would be better off with two houses than three, but I don't really interact with it enough to know more than that.
- With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
- (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
- Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
- Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."
@Frederich any time you want to debate look up Bade, he doesn't debate much but loves discussing different points of view, just try and convert him.
The Harbingers have really taken off in my time being there. Not for lack of @Xaden trying to steal people away for happy fun times with the dawnblade.
ALso, @Vesios / @Bade I'm sooooo down. I'll need to set it up w/ Torinn but lemme it set up
Oh this, so much this. I'm semi-retired these days, but fancied a bit of fun and usually, for me, that involves playing a bit at House and city level. But you can't even really get started, with the House at least (which I was more interested in) until you finish the reqs up to HR5. One of which is getting a city aideship. And I tried, man. I really did, I put in a good couple of weeks messaging ministers, then trying to meet up with them, or trying to get a convo by message or whatever. And eventually I just gave up, it's too hard. Like, I'm prepared to do a fair amount of interviewing, proving myself, make-work, essays or whatever but spending a couple of weeks trying to even get the opportunity to do all of that? That's just too much.
And, in general, there's just nothing going on. Ever. CT, HT are dead. Even trying to spark a bit of debate in the middle of the Black Wave usually failed. I know that EU timezones were never popping, but they never (to me anyway) felt as dead as they are now. It honestly feels like the whole of Ashtan just waits around for Jhui and team to go raid somewhere for reasons. And that's what we do. (And yes, I know, some of that is timezone related, but only some of it).
So now I bash. That's pretty much it. And it's quite relaxing, and I idly ponder making dragon, but it's not the game I grew up playing or really a game I like playing all that much. I certainly wouldn't stick around now if I was a proper newbie. Nostalgia is all rose-tinted glasses I know, and I try not to get lost in it, but when I properly started, people descended on me with help, and RP, and training. Guilds felt tight, like a group that properly would all look out for each other. Eh, I dunno. I'm not really in a place to know enough to offer solutions any more, but it does feel like a shame.
got gud
- With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
- (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
- Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
- Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."
[ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]
I actually kinda agree with this. I wish we only had two Houses and the Luminai was a high clan that you had to "earn" your way into, and could overlap with membership in one of the two Houses. I'd be all over that Dawnblade-spy action, and I think it'd allow the Luminai to be a lot more than what they are as a House (because I think people in the other two Houses could contribute a lot to the Luminai mission). Plus just general population of Targ not big enough for three Houses.
I wish we could incorporate more old Church stuff too, rather than fixating on being "new" and "different." Love the church lore and the Harbingers should be like the old Priests, with Dawnblade like the Templars, without the class basis and devotion to Honour and whatnot though.
I think the Admin and Renaissance founders were really trying to avoid (among other things) the infighting that plagued some cities due to ideological differences between their Houses. Certainly that can be counterproductive, and maybe it was time for a "reset" to clear out some of the 20-year-old baggage, but I'm of the opinion that these ideological differences are what makes a city feel alive. Just like pre-Renaissance Cyrene was interesting because it had its hawkish Wardens and pacifist Mojushai under the same roof learning to coexist, there should be factions within Targossas/Mhaldor that have different interpretations of Good/Evil and disagree with each others' application of their shared mores. Maldaathi vs Naga, Dawnstriders vs Guardians, in the past your choice of Guild/House drastically altered your game experience even though they resided in the same cities, and entire character identities were built on these different Guild/House cultures. People don't care about new Houses because new Houses aren't different enough to matter, just gilded facades painted over the obvious city culture. When you switch from Insidium to Legates, the only thing that really changes is the names on HW.
When House culture is that shallow, what is there to fall in love with?
-
One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
I think that's partially a function of smaller population. I've said before that I don't think Targossas can reliably sustain 3 houses. The Luminai might be fine if it was merged with the Harbingers instead of dividing the "non-combat" players between the two. Mhaldor's Houses both doing reasonably well seems to support this theory.
Add people like me and Antidas, as well as people like Talamond and Torinn, all into the mix, without taking us all from our current Houses, and I think we'd have something really cool.
The Kin seems to be a combination of the Sylvan and Druid houses, which I think is perfectly fine as there was a lot of overlap between those two houses pre-Renaissance. But the Scions, from a house less perspective anyway, really do just seem like Sentinels 2.0 without "Sentinels" in the name. Eleusis in general is a fighting city so I think it would've been cool if army stuff was merged into the village in general, or if it was made a clan or something. As it stands it doesn't really seem like the Scions add anything that isn't already there, not when you have almost everyone participating in raid defense, no matter their house.
@Frederich yes advancement in later stages in the house gets to be more grindy but quite often people are promoted to full membership through awesome RP activities, teaching, creating rituals, the like. The points are there for guidance and as a goal, but I will always always reward awesome stuff. You want to do a debate? Heck yeah. You feel like being a traveling preacher? Love it. Whatever interests you the most you should do it, and progression will come. Maybe the scrolls should be edited to reflect that more.
No there isn't a big mechanical benefit for increasing in rank but I doubt there was one in the old system either. In both cases it's "bragging rights". Proving to others via your rank that you know what you're doing. I progressed because that's what my character wanted not for cheaper credits. I like long and impressive titles, having the new people look at me and go "ooooh I look up to him". This game is what we make of it, so if there isn't something you like then help us fix it.
That said, I still believe in the potential of the Renaissance. The Houses just need time and the right people to build a distinct culture. I think the Mhaldorian Houses are putting in the right effort, with good, motivated people to do just that.
I really think it'd dilute the identity of the Harbingers and promote a division between the Dawnblade and the rest of the city if we tried to just cram the Luminai into the Harbingers and make it "combat" house vs "everything that's not combat" house.
Luminai should be a network that connects and facilitates both Houses. Ties into the lore where they were a sect of the church with people from both templars and priests and would function most optimally.
Would love it.
Agreed, the Harbingers have finally hammered out a definitive identity within the city and just cramming the Luminai in would destroy that.
I do quite like the idea of the Luminai being a connecting web within the city, I think that would help unify the rift, for lack of a better term, between the combatants and non-combatants.
Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM
It's going to be hard to get Cobra/Flair etc. levels of initiative to lead a drive for these things, especially against people that are resistant to perceived stability. The houses can probably find a way on their own, but it will take a fair amount of time, and people probably need to try and redefine them as institutions to begin with, as houses has too many connotations with what they used to be. Which was more like a middle school.
Sure, some houses became communities but they could get very closed very fast, rather than being accommodating. I imagine that houses should be more like universities, places of higher learning, where you give people your ethics from the get go and then let them do what they want, and reward them for promoting your ideals. Rather than shoving things down their throat and then examining them, or making them take tests, or requiring them to find mentors, or talk to people.
Of course communication is important, and proving yourself to others is important, but there should also be ways of advancing that doesn't require you to login at 3am in the morning to meet a novice aide, to stand in front of them to talk about how you can be a better Achaean.
Someone's work shouldn't be legitimised by oversight either. Too many times I see tasks that require someone's presence, things that can easily and obviously be done. I should be able to hold a sermon and tell someone I done it, or fight someone and tell them I done it, or write a joke and tell them I wrote it via message or letter without having to until unholy o clock to complete it.
Seems like integrity is a big requirement, which I think is a bit condescending.
Anyway I am mad because my Jester has been HR1 for like 3 months or something.
-
One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
That said, I think one thing that is often forgotten is how much time and work went into each of these organisations to make them as memorable and nostalgic as they are to many. When the guilds first came out, in many cases, they were little more than class dispensaries. That could be said even more so for the Houses when they shifted to them. It took a lot of sweat, tears, and frustrated arguments to hash out compelling identities for these organisations that kept people coming back and staying engaged. I feel the hardest part is not necessarily the requirements, but the effort leaders want to put in to 're-doing' the culture of these Houses.
I can't blame anyone, though, for not wanting to throw out 15 years worth of effort and start from scratch. That SUCKS and I know from my short time as HoN of the Dread Legates that it is extremely hard to say, "Let's come up with a compelling identity that completely avoids coming off as any of the old Houses, while still keeping Evil at the forefront but being a special snowflake." Personally, I am trying to give the Houses time to create their culture. Most of the Houses are a couple years or less old at this point. It is going to take a lot of time to really create something meaningful in ANY of them (as a general rule), and even more time for that meaning to stick and pervade the game's culture on a global level.
-- Edit: @Nataliia, get outta my head.
People are continually comparing houses (and I'm guilty of having done this or thought this too) to old guilds. Well, old guilds had to start somewhere too, they didn't just suddenly crop up in Achaea chalk full of identity and purpose and drive! Houses are pretty green, considering they all got changed within the last year-ish? Add to that the whole nostalgic desire to make new houses more like old guilds, to recycle identities, etc., because God knows it takes too much work to be original. I mean don't get me wrong, why change a good thing if it's truly a good thing right? But still, the admins obviously wanted to shift the game, so they did. It's the player resistance that's making houses lackluster. People spend all their time on the forums whining about how directionless they are and how awful they are, instead of doing something about it IC. Instead of looking at them as a blank slate that's ripe for new imaging we're still lamenting what was, and seeing the old picture. Time to move on.
I think the Harbingers have a pretty strong identity. There's even some room for some of what Aerek was talking about in terms of differences of opinion and approach, just in a different way.
Harbingers: ritualists/teachers/healers; believe all can be redeemed; duty is to heal and lead others back to the Light
Dawnblade: warriors/protectors, recognize the reality that not all will be redeemed; cut away that which is beyond redemption
There's potential for these to align, where one redeems those who can be redeemed and the other destroys those who cannot. But there's also potential for tension in the varying beliefs as to who can be healed and cleansed and who should just be destroyed.
Theoretically, the Luminai are the ones who gather and analyse information in order to determine who needs healing/conversion and who needs destruction. There just aren't enough people to justify this warranting a separate House.
Welp, wrong thread
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
That is, um, kind of the point of Darkness
I've always been a proponent that the House should be a faction that works directly for the benefit of the City. One of the big issues that we had back in the day was when the Houses were allowed to prioritise themselves over the City and taught their novices to do the same. That causes ruptures that ultimately holds up even the most basic decision making processes. I do think they attempted to address that with the Renn but now people are complaining that the Houses have 'lost their purpose/uniqueness'.
Having said that, I do think that one of the indications of whether a Renn has been successful is if the city's population has been noticeably redistributed as a result of it.
For example, if you tear down the Sentinels, Sylvans and Druids, and remake into the Heartwood and Scions... But nearly all the Sentinels go back to the Scions anyway and the Sylvans and Druids huddle together as Heartwood, then all we've got is just a new name plastered over an old House.
It's certainly not a definitive way of looking at things, but I do think it tells a bit.