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Messages and Concerns
Message #2157 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:06 Yeah, I feel like pressured to do shit when i'm hardly around. So I just like wake up and work.
Message #2159 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:08 Hrm maybe I should then. Like, this feels like chores ya know? Do this, do that. Get this level, read this, make a poster. Like dude, I just wanna play and have fun. Not petty chore work. We're not all into gaining social rank.
Message #2166 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:10 //I'm not sure how making people do a bunch of trivial tasks will help keep anyone interested though.
Message #2179 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:17 //the chore stuff? It's retarded. We had them in all guilds* but usually once you attain guild rank 3 you're good. You can progress if you wish to attain leadership positions.
Message #2184 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:23 //Yeah? It's kind of dumb if you ask me. While I get it's useful to help novices, beyond a point it becomes work. People play games to not work.. generally.
Message #2186 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:25 //It's kind of a trend I've noticed a bit here at least. It's almost like most substance isn't there, so it's compensated with mindless work. LIke there's conflict, but it's very generic.
Message #2187 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:26 Like between targ and mhaldor. I evil, you good.. we fight. That kind of generic conflict. Whereas personal grievences and clan wars are rare. I'd love to see more of that. Like a faction rise out of nowhere and wage war against another with some agenda that's not strictly "You are evil, I must destroy you."
Message #2189 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:28 Like control of an area or land. Taxing people who pass through it, while it may be dickish it's viable and roleplay. Opens the door for another clan to rise up fighting off the marauders. Maybe i'm alone in thinking that sort of thing is fun.
These messages were sent to me as part of a longer conversation, and... while I don't feel it's my place to reveal the person who sent them, I do encourage this person to reveal themself, and will acknowledge if/when that happens. I'm posting them here because I think there are some points made that are worth discussing. The only edits I made were to redact the name and add an asterisk for a footnote. Speaking of which:
*They were talking about Lusternian ones.
2017/1/23/23:06 Yeah, I feel like pressured to do shit when i'm hardly around. So I just like wake up and work.
Message #2159 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:08 Hrm maybe I should then. Like, this feels like chores ya know? Do this, do that. Get this level, read this, make a poster. Like dude, I just wanna play and have fun. Not petty chore work. We're not all into gaining social rank.
Message #2166 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:10 //I'm not sure how making people do a bunch of trivial tasks will help keep anyone interested though.
Message #2179 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:17 //the chore stuff? It's retarded. We had them in all guilds* but usually once you attain guild rank 3 you're good. You can progress if you wish to attain leadership positions.
Message #2184 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:23 //Yeah? It's kind of dumb if you ask me. While I get it's useful to help novices, beyond a point it becomes work. People play games to not work.. generally.
Message #2186 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:25 //It's kind of a trend I've noticed a bit here at least. It's almost like most substance isn't there, so it's compensated with mindless work. LIke there's conflict, but it's very generic.
Message #2187 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:26 Like between targ and mhaldor. I evil, you good.. we fight. That kind of generic conflict. Whereas personal grievences and clan wars are rare. I'd love to see more of that. Like a faction rise out of nowhere and wage war against another with some agenda that's not strictly "You are evil, I must destroy you."
Message #2189 Sent by [redacted]
2017/1/23/23:28 Like control of an area or land. Taxing people who pass through it, while it may be dickish it's viable and roleplay. Opens the door for another clan to rise up fighting off the marauders. Maybe i'm alone in thinking that sort of thing is fun.
These messages were sent to me as part of a longer conversation, and... while I don't feel it's my place to reveal the person who sent them, I do encourage this person to reveal themself, and will acknowledge if/when that happens. I'm posting them here because I think there are some points made that are worth discussing. The only edits I made were to redact the name and add an asterisk for a footnote. Speaking of which:
*They were talking about Lusternian ones.
Miin-aan baash kimini-sij-i-gan bitooyin sij-i-gan-i bukwayszhiigan = blueberry π
0
Comments
2017/1/23/23:08 Hrm maybe I should then.
I asked them to talk to someone who might could help with this stuff.
I've played as a rogue for the longest time, and found it incredibly difficult to find a character I enjoyed playing long enough to keep them as my "main".
Oxy was one of the first characters I made (thus how old she is yet how weak, given I've made a couple of characters in the time in-between to try out different classes and the such), and after 80 IG years of experiencing Achaea I can't say I'm fond of any of the organizations presently available.
Beyond how good the writing for major conflict may or may not be, making advancement in cities and houses be all about chores is increeedibly discouraging. I completely agree that coming home from work or school to do more tasks has always been the weakest aspect of Achaean RP.
I feel like most large conflicts are on the hands of the Divine. And that's honestly not fun. It doesn't help that most Divine still around are... Mostly assholes, honestly. No big objectives are player-driven, they're all handed on silver platters and give little to no wiggle room. Always railroaded.
I feel like most organizations have the same objective. We're correct, they're wrong. Kill them. This is... Incredibly boring to anyone who wants to have a character with the smallest bit of empathy for others.
I miss Divine like Lady Selene, whose Order was unique and full of incredible RP opportunities that showed the Divine as more than capricious warlords.
I feel like there's lots of wasted potential, and I wanted to make this post as constructive and least-whiny as possible, but I might've failed colossally. I'd be more than open to try and discuss ways to fix this, or otherwise be proven wrong on some of the things I said that might be more personal. I feel like many that agree with Boosteya('s friend) would agree with some of this, though.
Regarding guilds/houses/chores/monotony:
100% agree with anon here, though this discussion is one that's been touched on many, many times here on the forums. Issue is multifaceted imo, on one hand you kinda need those checklists to help the genuine newbies who're probably completely lost, stumbling around the MUD. They need that guiding hand and those scrolls to give them a sense of direction until they get their feet on the ground and figure things out. On the other hand it's like you have a second job and all of your bosses know each other and if you don't follow things word for word, good luck to you see ya whenever, etc.
This is part of the reason the old guilds and houses were overhauled and redone from scratch.
Being completely honest here, while there are reasons my character ICly hasn't joined a house since I came back, on an OOC level I haven't joined a house purely because I absolutely do not want to do the novice program again, period, end of discussion. Thankfully, the rules regarding house membership in Eleusis are lax enough that I can get away with staying houseless.
Recently I've come of the opinion that there's nothing wrong with recommending the grindy parts/homework as a form of generalized house guidelines, but they should stay just that - recommended guidelines. They shouldn't be requirements. House rules should be lax enough and allow enough leeway for those obvious alts (or genuine novices who have picked up on things quick enough) to advance through the novice program via alternative means. Stuff like intensive roleplay, rituals, combat theory for their class if it's a combat house, stuff like that. You can use the checklist guidelines as a "here's some stuff to look over given your current level and strength" fact sheet, instead of what existed prior: you need to do all of these things and write these three essays and fight this many people and then prepare for a three hour interview to test whether you truly know this stuff, etc. etc.
I think the hellish novice programs may have had/still has an effect on retention rates, now that I think about it.
Regarding combat:
I agree to a point. I don't think most conflicts are Divine-inspired and I do think PKers are largely responsible for organizing their own fights and raids/defenses. Are the conflicts in the names of the Divine? I mean, probably, yeah, in most cases. Shouting the name of your god to the high heavens as you cut down the blasphemous infidels kinda comes with the whole "ultra-violent religious zealots" territory, which five of the six cities almost certainly qualify as.
I do think there may be a bit too much mindless slaughter and not enough preaching/attempting to convince the other side, though. I know there's been some of that on the public news section recently and I love it, but more is always better given how big an influence combat currently has in Achaea's geopolitics. I'd like to see more face-to-face challenges of theology and beliefs, especially before or after combat. During would be even better but that'd be sorta hard for obvious reasons. The lack of said discussion may be why anon feels Achaean conflict is so generic. I will say that all the factions (some more than others) are quite deep and complex when it comes to their various beliefs and views. The issue is, again, the heavy stuff is rarely publicized out in the open and is mostly contained nowadays to news boards. Less talking, more bashing of skulls, etc. And when those deep talks do happen you won't really see the parties going around proclaiming "Hey guys, soandso and I just had a REALLY INTERESTING conversation on EVIL vs GOOD!", etc.
There are also personal vendettas that occur on the regular, but they stay just that: personal; this stuff is usually part of a character's personal story arc or whatever and are rarely publicized unless the metaphorical shit hits the metaphorical fan and multiple third parties get involved on either side. I do admit I've rarely heard of/seen inter-clan conflict, though, mostly because family members usually stay within their own bubbles (i.e. clt chat) and talk sass when nobody else can hear them.
So on the whole, yeah, there's always some good and some bad. Like others have always said, your experiences within the game will mostly stem from how well you can weed out the stuff you dislike and focus on the stuff you're interested in, and whether you can find like-minded people to join in on what you find interesting and create roleplay centered around said stuff.
Sorry if this was superduper word-soupy/train of consciousness, I'm tired as hell and my brain shut down like two hours ago.
I'd even go as far as saying I feel like most city people don't even get involved with their own city's depth, let alone anyone else's. And that is indeed what bugs me. I don't like being part of a city that is going to criticize another's point of view without even fully understanding their own.
Excuses to fight, I feel like they are, sometimes.
However I am very interested in this depth you mention, and have had Oxy ponder this a lot lately. She feels like she doesn't belong in any city, but like she can learn something from all of them (and in all her years, has). So perhaps, regarding my personal issue with this topic, it's time I DO something about it in-character rather than just complain.
It isn't just about leading prayers, and rituals, though they do give a healthy bit of bonuses to your 'score' for the rank you're currently in. They also give points for writing books, having and joining in discussions, etc. It's an entirely interesting sort of thing that I can genuinely say I like.
I gave @Torinn a book about the Bal'Met saga written from the perspective of a Mhaldorian. It's entirely intriguing, because we attempt to learn why the other people have the culture that they do, and get to understand things from their view. Sure, we do also try to convert people, but Targossas genuinely believes what they're doing is the best thing for everyone involved. In a way, it is!
It's a lot more than "Lawful Stupid" that I originally thought of whenever I was in Cyrene, and a LOT less grinding out house tasks left and right... Then again. I'm a dragon, and that means I can die 4-5 times and lose 1% so...
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
mahldur believes you're all pansies and existence is out to get you, row row fight the lung cancer power
targewsas loves you and WILL drag you to the prayer services, no matter the cost
a(team)shtan doesn't really give a fuck, embrace the chaos!!!!!!!!! life's a roller coaster man, here have some drugs
i still don't know what hashan's about
and cyrene has art and a mall
got gud
[ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]
It's a difficult balance to make advancement meaningful without also making it feel like work, and I encourage anyone who has feedback to not be afraid of suggesting alternatives ICly (if it makes sense, looking at you slaves) or OOCly to the people in charge. Even if your idea can't be implemented, at least leaders will know how you feel about it and/or could try to work on a compromise with you.
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
Interested in joining a Discord about Achaean RP? Want to comment on RP topics or have RP questions? Check the Achaean RP Resource out here: https://discord.gg/Vbb9Zfs
As for Houses. Never liked them much, and I like them even less now. I honestly dont see a point in joining one, unless it is a novice seeking to learn the ropes of achaea life. I much much more prefer roguing it out.
Edit: To add, in some IRE the guilds/houses have more meaning and definition to them and I believe my favorite would have to be Lusternia. Join the priesthood of faith for your org? Go to the Guardian archetype guild and get closer with the 'divine' beings that represent it, as well as maintain the 'plane' they exist on. Want to enhance the culture of your org? Go to the Bard archetype guild and get access to the stage. Want to get nurture and protect your woods? Join the Druid archetype guild and keep an eye on the forests, carve up totems, and help the plants grow. etc. etc. I suppose it really all gets down to how closely their classes are tied to their guilds in general, not in the mechanical sense but more of the flavor and source, as well as the tasks that come with the duties.
Firstly, having the little work that our novices do in the house gathering cures, learning how to get places, and writing a few sentences means that (hopefully) they will not be dying all the time from either lack of knowledge or laziness of getting their required items. Learning their way around, they find their way to our house shops which is not super exciting but essential, and writing the few sentences required lets us get to know them a little. So getting from rank 1-3 in the Merchants is fairly easy and helps the novice or reborn and helps their fellow Merchants get to know them a little. Now after rank 3 is where a lot of people get stuck, no one wants to move up. There is more work to be done, but that is where we really teach you about what we know as Merchants. So if you actually joined the Merchants house with the intent to learn what we know, you will pass from rank 3-5. If not well... we have quite a few of those that just sit at rank 3.
I don't know how other houses are run, I don't know how those systems are, but honestly I think the way ours is, while I'm sure it can and will be tweaked and changed and has been, well it works. The problem is with people who get to rank 3 or to rank 5 and expect to be just handed the golden keys and not have to do anything else and think well, I'm a full member I should know everything and get to do everything, where as there have been people that have been in the house for hundreds of years who will just laugh at you and say get to work.
While yes I realize that some people don't like to go to their real life jobs, then come home and get on achaea and work. Some people don't always see this as work. I get to choose when I do the work in the game, I get to step away if I don't want to do the work in the game, if I'm stressed or annoyed I can step away... so its not really work? real life if I did that I would get fired. I can also tell people how I really feel in achaea... real life I would get fired
Though I do understand the point of view of wanting more interesting types of conflict out of the game. I think some people are very happy with what they have... just saying.
I can say that I am also totally on the same bandwagon of "God this feels a lot like real life work/homework, and damn am I over it!" I mean, after you've been playing IRE for years upon years the whole song and dance of show your interviewer how to find the bank, the post office, etc. and get to level 60 and have at least 50 of each curative, 2 health vials, 2 mana vials, and at least one of every other salve and elixer is kind of boring and overly redundant. It's great for true noobs but if you switch houses and stuff and it's obvious you've been there, done that, doing it again sucks and is a huge deterrent from wanting to do it for the billionth time.
Props to @Yzarin who made it possible for @Israyhl and I to do tasks that weren't the typical ones for the Somatikos. She took time to talk to both of us, ask what our strengths and enjoyments are, and devised some tasks around that which would play on said strengths/enjoyments while also benefiting the house and city. Would that more HoNs would do something like this.
Edit: The point was to note that out of all of the types and flavors of tasks, a points based system is my favorite given that it allows for a lot of different play style. If someone really wants to write a book, go knock yourself out. If you don't want to research or pen a novel but do want to lead a group hunt, great. I'm happier with having direction, but having it still have some option base to it.
So many of these houses are so new that they've not really had the opportunity to fine tune advancement processes to a point of perfection. The DB's point system first came into being when I was HR3 (circa dec 2015). And ever since then it has evolved constantly.
There was a divine mandate that all Targ houses were to be focused solely on carrying out their purpose and not get bogged down in the checklist nature of old house/guild requirements.
It was great, in theory, but then you have the issue of true novices, how do they learn to fight? (I believe there were similar issues in the other houses, but tbh I have no idea what they do still so gonna stick with the DB).
So there was massive amounts of work put into the Targ Academy and a preparatory path for each house was devised, allowing people to understand what was required of each house and actually sample each house if they so wished.
It was tonnes of work on the part of the Divine and the players. Now we're in a place whereby if you want to join a house (and you're under no obligation to do so) there's a way for people to learn what they need to know in their own time, in their own way, and once they join the house they'll basically only have to do stuff that they enjoy doing.
Essentially now, to join the DB you just have to have all your equipment and be willing and able to fight. From there, just fight people whenever you want to and you advance.
I believe, after a massive slog, the city is now in a position to cater for all types and make the housing experience fun for everyone.
I feel what he/she is saying. I need to get HR5 to get into Artemis per-order, if I wouldn't have had that for motivation I probably would never have went for HR5.
It's quite a lot of work, learn about the how and why of Patrons, learn about the other house you did -not- join, make posters (or anything that feeds the factional propaganda), get feedback, improve, feedback, improve more, get approval, buy blanks, produce posters, hang them everywhere (which was actually the fun part, getting them in Hashan/Mhaldor). I've spent quite some time on it already and it may all be in vain if I get zero response to my propaganda, which is highly likely since it's factional and the other side is probably just going to mushroom my work anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there shouldn't be requirements. But I can relate to what anon says about it, you have to go through a lot of shit just to be rewarded with full membership. While having these requirements help you understand more about your faction/RP (it did in my case), the opposite is driving people away by making it nearly impossible to achieve. But I guess that's the issue, isn't it? You'll always have people that will be like 'fuck this I'm out' and 'I wish we would be focusing more on lore and tasks'.
Maybe we could just scrap the set-in-stone requirements and leave it to a persons mentor to judge if someone has a grasp of what the house is about? Or maybe a mentor/HoN person can decide on per-person tasks to be done by a HR5-? Just thinking out loud here.
I, for example, play between 6am to 10pm GMT so wouldn't see a huge amount of what happens during the night. Cailan, who's our HoN has a more scattered log in time, but definitely wouldn't see everything either.
So what happens there is it puts an obligation on senior house members to report or verify peoples claims, and that's just not going to happen.
It's INCREDIBLY EASY to set out to create advancement tasks for an org, with the best intentions of making them fun, engaging, character-building, personalised, and in line with the org's theme, only to end up with tedious crap like essay-writing or lecture-giving that most players are not only bored with but actively disinterested in. Even if you're aware of these pitfalls, it's really hard to avoid them.
Seriously, what tasks do you make? You need so much perspective and awareness of how this game works, what players can and cannot do, how to incorporate existing mechanics, what is fun, the player types and what sort of things they enjoy (eg. not writing, for 80% of them). Also how to future-proof your tasks against charmless aides giving the evaluations, or regime changes that risk turning your joy factory into a Kafkaesque nightmare.
Thought #2 relates to this: Achaea is a game where... it's not that you cannot change the world, but you can only do so in specific ways. I don't want this to come across as a complaint, because it's just the way the game is, and every game in any medium has limitations. Every IRE game has the same limitations - and they're miles ahead of other MUDs. If you want to blow up that village and build a lemonade stand on the rubble, you just can't do that. If you want to seize control of an area and tax the people who pass through (as Anon suggests) you can sorta kinda do that, but you have to be prepared to accept the limitations of how you'll be able to enact it, and play along with the pantomime.
This connects with thought #1 because those limitations of what you can do in this persistent world directly affect the types of advancement tasks you can design. If you're dealing with newer players - anyone not a veteran, honestly - then you have to assume they haven't yet learned the unspoken rules of the pantomime, you kind of have to stick to concrete mechanically achievable tasks, or tasks where the 'your words go here' parts are very clearly underlined. You can tell someone to go plant a tree, or to go hypnotise a rival to reveal their secrets, and although those are things that it's quite possible to roleplay out, it's going to confuse the shit out of anyone who hasn't been playing the game for months already. This is why tasks tend to roll back around to things like essay-writing.
Third thought: having fun is the most important thing. This is a game. It's easy to fall into the bureaucratic trap of key performance indicators, but that's crap compared to having a group who enjoy themselves and do so because of the environment you provide. That said, a lot of people are introverts who burn out on trying to create that environment and be outgoing and fun. There's a reason so many Houses (or guilds, elsewhere in IRE) have such dramatic ebbs and flows around the leadership of specific players. People create standardised tasks for a reason: it's easier.
First, outside of novice-level requirements meant for actual newbies, advancement in your House should come through activities that you would be doing regardless of house tasks. Fighting, exploring, bashing, designing, writing, etc. You should never get assigned boring shit work. If it's not something you would do without somebody forcing you to do it, you shouldn't force anybody else to do it.
Second, your tasks shouldn't require an audience. That is to say, you should not require your house members to give a lecture to a group or anything like that. Two reasons for that. The first is that it forces their advancement to wait until they can get together an appropriate audience. The second is that it forces/guilts the rest of the house into dropping what they're doing and going to the performance. Literally the only complaint I have about Targossas is that all their prayer rituals are fucking unbearable. Long, slow, boring, repetitive. Performed by rote with the ritualist literally copy-pasting the entire thing line by line. Don't inflict this shit on your members.
Third, you should never place your members in a position where they will feel compelled to sacrifice quality in favor of quantity. If you make the requirements too grindy people will stop caring about how good their submissions are and start just caring about making the numbers.
-
One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
HOUSE COMBAT SPAR <person>
Then if you win, you get a token which can be redeemed at a house tutor as proof you've met the requirements.
Same could be done with various other tasks too.
Just a thought.
-
One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
From what I saw/heard New houses were explicitly told this. Putting deadlines puts an unfair amount of pressure on the casuals and those that get pulled away because life. No longer can you get kicked from a house as a novice for not completing tasks in a certain time. It's rather nice.
2) If you are under House rank 5 expect lots of questions about how you are doing about your tasks.
And it's not the people putting pressure on you because you aren't doing your tasks. People usually ask because there is genuine concern that you may need some extra guidance to complete them but may be to shy to ask, don't know who to ask or may be ready to complete them but never seen an appropriate person to assess the task. They aren't telling you to hurry up but that they are around if you have questions. Unless they are directly telling you to hurry up, then they are just being/rping an asshole.
3) Best way to stop them asking is being honest.
when they ask how your tasks are going if you say 'yeah I'm working on them' the next time they see you they'll probably check in again to see how work progressed. These constant contact might be seen as pressure. Instead just tell them up front your taking some time to chill and relax with whatever your doing sand they'll usually let you go about your business and may throw some un task related tips your way to help you anyway.
- Pressure to do tasks is usually built up in the head of the task doer. If your feeling it take steps to allieviate it.
All this caused from experiencing very bad situations involving house requirements and those players that oversee/enforce them.
I had a grand time with the Merchants, but all the crap and drama I've gone through with the Consortium to get to HR5 pretty much brings up every bad memory I had experienced with guilds and was precisely why I never wanted to be part of a House.
My character serves the city that she is a part of, and everything centres around that. When I log in, I really hate that I need to figure out what all needs doing and to prioritise my time for what feels like two very different organisations when I just want to log in and relax, and doing things to enjoy myself.
Tasks and requirements, if they are a necessity, ought to reflect upon the age and the knowledge of the person needing to do them. The Merchants were really great about this and I finished everything I needed to do with the Merchants in about 2 RL days because they took into consideration how long my character had been around, the positions she held, what she was already capable of doing and didn't need to be taught. I wish all Houses were like this.
Advanced past HR5 should be something engaging, but I get the feeling of "Why bother?" that most people get when they read HR3. Once you get full membership, where is the incentive to do anything more for a House? I'm already asking myself that because in my case, I find myself waiting to hear back from a single person about the possibilities of progression, and that single person is in a different timezone to me, so I either need to be waking up at 4am to play Achaea before I get ready for work, or I just find other things to occupy my time because it's just not worth getting fussed over.
I'd really, really like if advancement was entirely automated. Much like how the City task system is set up. Do this, this, and that, and automatically advance without needing to wait around for human interaction, or having to awkward time zones. I'd probably find that a whole lot more enjoyable than the way things currently are. I'd like to be able to log in, decide I want to work on a house rank, complete a bunch of pre-determined tasks and feel like I'm actually achieving something.
- With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
- (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
- Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
- Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."
got gud