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The State of Bashing

Aegoth
Aegoth Member Posts: 2,936 @@ - Legendary Achaean
edited January 2017 in North of Thera
IT's been some time since the inception of battlerage bashing, and numerous balancing tweaks to classes. In spite of numerous attempts to tone down certain classes and buff others in order to form an "equilibrium" for bashing, where all classes are supposedly equal, we are a far cry from anything like that.

Knight (except snb), specifically Runewarden is still king.

Artied serpent is second to none by an immense gap.

Dragon is considered superior to all but these two classes. 

SnB, BM, magi, jester, monks (oh god, those poor fucking fools), and other classes are horrendously subpar compared to Runie/artied serpent. The gap is entirely too large, EVEN WHEN ARTIED, and makes bashing a truly disparaging event where a few classes blow away everyone else.

The main culprit is damage resistance. Runies laugh at damage, and that matters when it now takes half an hour to kill an orc. As a lv 3 artied mage, an UNARTEFACTED runewarden can handle areas that I would easily get decimated in. This is not good, nor is it healthy for the game, especially when efforts have been made to "normalise" bashing.

The second culprit is speed. Serpents who have the proper artefacts can blow through an entire zone in half the time it takes anyone else, and this is immensely important as well: especially if you want to compare gold/hour against any other class. 

Should there be advantages to certain classes? That's up to the dev team. The problem is that the dev team has been advertising "normalised" bashing, and so far has had extremely problems with delivering that promise.  I hope that there are changes we can look forward to. I mostly just made this thread because I hate bashing, and if I ever see another mhun again, I swear to god I will burn down Moghedu. Thanks, everyone!

Edit: tags for @Nicola @Makarios @ThatOtherDude?
DridenLiyaneAereidhnaBadeQuisse
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Comments

  • Sarathai
    Sarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    In fairness, Dragon is functionally a bashing reward - I don't see why it shouldn't be superior to many classes for bashing.

    I would say that Bard is also up there though.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    ExelethrilValariaNataliiaPrythe
  • Aegoth
    Aegoth Member Posts: 2,936 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    True. Dragon should really be the optimal bashing class, imo. But admin efforts have made it clear they don't really want this to be the case because credit market blah blah. This was back when Tecton was admin though, so idk if that stance has changed at all
  • Omor
    Omor Member Posts: 756 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I generally agree with everything Aegoth is saying, except the artied Serp speed. From what I remember, bashing was 'normalized' across unartied specs.
    However, the sole reason I picked up a second class as soon as I hit 80 (Runie btw) is because monk bashing was so god damn awful that I knew I wouldn't make it any further in the game if I didn't switch. I literally would have quit playing if I weren't willing to make the credit purchase to trans another class. I don't think that's healthy for the game, but maybe that's just a me thing.
    Omor Ceberek - Targossas

    got gud
    LiyaneShaydeAereidhna
  • Liyane
    Liyane Member Posts: 103 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2017
    As someone who is on the beneficial end of this spectrum (2h runewarden), the huge discrepancy makes me really uninterested in picking up any second class, even dragon. Why play something else where it would be slower bashing? Why kill myself to rush dragon when it's not even better really than what I have already?

    [Edit] I will add that I originally planned to do SNB and picked it as my spec and was horrified to find I did less damage as SNB with longsword/buckler than I did unspecced with the starting short sword to the same exact mobs. I quickly spent the lessons to switch specs.
    AereidhnaNataliia
  • Issam
    Issam Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 217 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I can't comment too much on other classes, but bashing as a pretty well-artefacted monk feels pretty awful. There's a lot of mana- and willpower-intensive upkeep that would probably not be viable at baseline that I feel is necessary to survive, and the attacks feel like I'm slapping things to death, strength and knuckles and all. I would definitely be doing better with things like the cape, but compared to short stints as other classes, it really feels like a chore.

  • Jhui
    Jhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    monk feels terrible
    image
    IssamFrederichIsmay
  • Frederich
    Frederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    Gotta agree with Jhui on this one.

    Monk DOES feel terrible.  I hunt in lesser in areas where I can tank (which is a healthy chunk with 7k hp in lesser)...

    Areas that I can't tank though feel horrendously slow if I have to go dragonform..
  • Vesios
    Vesios Member Posts: 243 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2017
    Don't have enough experience with other classes to comment on how druid compares, but I will say that unartied, mauling tickles. Every day I miss jaguar's reflexed mauling. Picking up a crit pendant was probably the best bashing-related decision I made, and at most I feel it moved things from subpar to utterly mediocre. 

    Tanking doesn't feel that bad, but that's mostly because vigour, staff flail and panacea are bae, and vitality gives you some breathing room if things get needlessly hairy. 

    Also I think I speak for every druid when I say please let wreathe mauling do bonus damage to denizens yes plsthx. 
  • Minifie
    Minifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    i feel like dragon should be 100% the best with minimal arties but falls to one of the worst with a near-full to full, offensively.

    dragon defensively should be solid, it should still be a very good choice if you hunt much bigger places.
  • Nataliia
    Nataliia Member Posts: 385 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Liyane said:
    As someone who is on the beneficial end of this spectrum (2h runewarden), the huge discrepancy makes me really uninterested in picking up any second class, even dragon. Why play something else where it would be slower bashing? Why kill myself to rush dragon when it's not even better really than what I have already?

    [Edit] I will add that I originally planned to do SNB and picked it as my spec and was horrified to find I did less damage as SNB with longsword/buckler than I did unspecced with the starting short sword to the same exact mobs. I quickly spent the lessons to switch specs.
    This. So this.

    When I started Achaea with Nataliia I began as a Blademaster. That's what I was really interested in for style because I was going to RP Nataliia as more of a... well... this describes it better than I could I think? Spunk? Sass? I dunno.




    The whole Knight thing really has never fit the mercenary/samurai character feel I intended to mold Nata in the image of. It was never (and still isn't) my intention to have her be this staunch, upstanding, chivalrous sort. I took Runie after getting supremely frustrated with how godawful BM hunting was (because I'm one of those freaks who actually enjoys bashing and would have gouged out my eyeballs trying to bash as a BM).

    I love the utility of other classes for other reasons, but just haven't ever been able to justify picking up another because I love 2H Runewarden for fighting (because it's not so incredibly complex to the point I-- as a green fighter-- feel like I can't learn it) AND hunting. Sometimes I even opt to stay as a 2H Runewarden even though I have dragon because the crits are better, provided I'm not trying to bash somewhere I want to tank in ezmode (or the catacombs and slugs. Damn those trucks slugs. They should drop dragon pieces.) I think the only thing better at this point would be the disgusting combination of Serpagons (that would be Serpents with a L3 dirk that dragons use instead of their intended attacks).

    To be honest, I miss when battlerage wasn't a thing. I think it unnecessarily complicated bashing in general, is only useful for a small handful of classes, and really lackluster for others. Plus, personally, I don't particularly enjoy having to add on other attacks to feel like I'm optimizing my damage, and 99% of the time I don't have enough battlerage to shatter mob shields when I need to anyway if I'm using the other offensive abilities.

    P.S.
    Sorry about the huge pictures! I don't know how to do the whole spoiler thing. :confounded:
    IsrayhlValariaAdrakShirszae
  • Israyhl
    Israyhl Member Posts: 198 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    As a heavily-artefacted Bard, I will say that Serpent is not -that- much faster than I am when it comes to clearing an area. They hit faster (@Cooper once said he hit with a lash at 1.4 versus my 1.8?), but I have more tankiness (hello harmonics), thus I need run less than they to make up for the difference in 'speed'. 

    That said, I think a lot of classes do need improving to make bashing more 'enjoyable' - or at least tolerable. Blademaster has always been absolute garbage with large endurance drains (supposedly fixed) and only Mir in the form of defensive. I feel too many classes use too many resources to bash comfortably now, where Knight classes, especially Runewarden, can mostly sit back and just jab their bashing key over and over with a little bit of battlerage sprinkled in to spice things up. 

    Bashing is one of the main reasons I play. I enjoy it, and will always enjoy it to some degree. But when I played an un-artefacted character, even a Priest, it felt more like a chore than something I could zone into and enjoy. 
    Nataliia
  • Nazihk
    Nazihk Member Posts: 993 @ - Epic Achaean
    I don't mind heavily artifacted professions being better than dragon, as long as it is not excessively better; this is a pay for perks game and when I buy my text sword I expect that text sword to be awesome. I mostly view dragon as a nice way to even up the scales. 

    It establishes a baseline level of strength at the high end of things and helps even things out between the artifact whales and the plankton. When you run an event you can scale things around the dragon and be confident that a large amount of your playerbase will be able to handle it. It gives unartifacted people a useful and durable chassis during group fights. It's honestly one of my favorite things about Achaea, and I really think that Achaea is the only IRE mud to get their endgame right.

    Nataliia said:
    99% of the time I don't have enough battlerage to shatter mob shields when I need to anyway if I'm using the other offensive abilities.
    Carve is so strong in PvE that I feel like you really shouldn't be wasting rage on the shield break regardless.
    LiyaneBrean
  • Nataliia
    Nataliia Member Posts: 385 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Nataliia said:
    99% of the time I don't have enough battlerage to shatter mob shields when I need to anyway if I'm using the other offensive abilities.
    Carve is so strong in PvE that I feel like you really shouldn't be wasting rage on the shield break regardless.
    I wasn't talking about when I'm a Runie bashing, I was talking about when I'm Dragon bashing and don't have carve. 
    IsrayhlLiyane
  • Sarathai
    Sarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Minifie said:
    i feel like dragon should be 100% the best with minimal arties but falls to one of the worst with a near-full to full, offensively
    Disagree. I do think that if you go the whole hog when artied out in a lesserform class you should be reasonably comparable to dragon offensively for bashing, but it shouldn't fall to one of the worst, particularly if the dragon is also artied out. That defeats the purpose.

    As it is, you won't catch me bashing in Druid over Dragon unless I'm literally just screwing around. Even if I am, I won't be using Maul to do it, that's just painful.

     @Nataliia the Tfang-dragon combo has gotten repeated nerfs over time, it's no longer what it once was.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • Nataliia
    Nataliia Member Posts: 385 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sarathai said:
    Minifie said:
    i feel like dragon should be 100% the best with minimal arties but falls to one of the worst with a near-full to full, offensively
    Disagree. I do think that if you go the whole hog when artied out in a lesserform class you should be reasonably comparable to dragon offensively for bashing, but it shouldn't fall to one of the worst, particularly if the dragon is also artied out. That defeats the purpose.

    As it is, you won't catch me bashing in Druid over Dragon unless I'm literally just screwing around. Even if I am, I won't be using Maul to do it, that's just painful.

     @Nataliia the Tfang-dragon combo has gotten repeated nerfs over time, it's no longer what it once was.
    While I'm sure this is true, it is still used more than the intended dragon attacks by those who have Serpent and the Tfang, which tells me it's still good enough. I, as a Runewarden, can't use my Runeblade-Dreadblade. Just always thought it was a sick combination to use an artie dirk to bypass dragon attacks (which, as everyone knows, eat through EQ/WP unless you invested credits into a WP circlet or END ring and philosophy/fitness), and is faster than typical dragon attacks.

    But this is a whole can of worms in and of itself, and I'm not looking to wage a forum war against serpents who might be offended by the idea of Tfang+dragon being wrong and something that just feels like it was kinda an oversight.
    Israyhl
  • Israyhl
    Israyhl Member Posts: 198 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Thankfully, I can still use my Songblessed Soulpiercer at a 1.8s balance in Dragon so long as I keep it wielded. Plus, it is fun to jab for 1600. 

    -- Yes, I did bug it, and no, I don't really use it. 
  • Minifie
    Minifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    Sarathai said:
    Minifie said:
    i feel like dragon should be 100% the best with minimal arties but falls to one of the worst with a near-full to full, offensively
    Disagree. I do think that if you go the whole hog when artied out in a lesserform class you should be reasonably comparable to dragon offensively for bashing, but it shouldn't fall to one of the worst, particularly if the dragon is also artied out. That defeats the purpose.

    As it is, you won't catch me bashing in Druid over Dragon unless I'm literally just screwing around. Even if I am, I won't be using Maul to do it, that's just painful.

     @Nataliia the Tfang-dragon combo has gotten repeated nerfs over time, it's no longer what it once was.
    Dragon has a time investment of about 6 weeks on average to gain, I may do a hardcore 6 week bash session to test how many credits I could get, but for dragon you get better defensive bonus from arties, a weaker bonus from offensive arties (+3 str is all you need). It should be, defensively, the best, but surrenders offensively go heavily artied classes, because almost any class will require a much more than 6 week bashing investment to be better. 

    I'm not saying dragon should be awful, if I was +3 con and str and defensive artied 2h dragon should be better, but throw in a level 3 sword, 3 embrasure artied armour set for hunting, that's a hell of an investment, and being about 15% squishier than dragon and 25% offensively stronger would be fair. 

    Edit: druids need bashing buff tho.

    Liyane
  • Nataliia
    Nataliia Member Posts: 385 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I have +2 str, +2 con, +1 int (from the wheel), +2 reserves (boost to overall mana/health), +1 health sip, +2 health regen, +1 mana regen, and a (L3) Dreadblade.

    Even with all that I don't feel like it's as good as dragon for bashing. I definitely can tank more as a dragon, especially with having the SoA as an aside. I have a L2 crit pendant which I get way more use out of as a 2H Runie than I do as a Dragon, but it's still useful to both.

    I bring this up because 2H Runie keeps getting brought up, but as one I can definitely say you still have way more survivability as a dragon due to resists and overall health. With my cape maxed out I can get to 12.5k health as a dragon and only 9k or so as a Runie (with runes). So just because someone's a whale doesn't mean they're gonna be better off out of dragon. I can't tank stacks in the catacombs as an artied Runie and can in Dragon, for instance.
    Liyane
  • Sarathai
    Sarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    Minifie said:
    I'm not saying dragon should be awful, if I was +3 con and str and defensive artied 2h dragon should be better, but throw in a level 3 sword, 3 embrasure artied armour set for hunting, that's a hell of an investment, and being about 15% squishier than dragon and 25% offensively stronger would be fair.
    Dragons can wear cloth armour. All they miss is the "dedicated" L3 weapon nowadays, along with access to Nimble/Quick-Witted in dform for that valuable speed boost.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • Minifie
    Minifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarathai said:
    Minifie said:
    I'm not saying dragon should be awful, if I was +3 con and str and defensive artied 2h dragon should be better, but throw in a level 3 sword, 3 embrasure artied armour set for hunting, that's a hell of an investment, and being about 15% squishier than dragon and 25% offensively stronger would be fair.
    Dragons can wear cloth armour. All they miss is the "dedicated" L3 weapon nowadays, along with access to Nimble/Quick-Witted in dform for that valuable speed boost.
    Then shouldn't they be defensively the best, but middle of the road offensively? If anything give dragon's nimble and rebalance offensive capabilities based on defense, readjust the defensive powerhouses to be defensively weaker against denizens and up their strength if they are as weak as buttons. I only bash in dform myself due to pierce and the ability to not get stomped when a huge group swarms me.
    Liyane
  • Tahquil
    Tahquil Member Posts: 4,546 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    If you are a dragon and you can wear cloth armour you are bugged. Dragons should not be able to wear any armour.

    Tagging @Makarios because this still seems to be a thing.
    KyrraLiyane
  • Asmodron
    Asmodron Member Posts: 3,145 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    If you are a dragon and you can wear cloth armour you are bugged. Dragons should not be able to wear any armour.

    Tagging @Makarios because this still seems to be a thing.

    I also thought this, as did others, but apparently it is suppose to be a thing... it was very confusing
  • Asmodron
    Asmodron Member Posts: 3,145 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As for Blademaster bashing.


    For the longest time, committed Blademasters have been trying to make Blademaster bashing more on par with other classes. After many rejections in Classleads, we -finally- got one thing we were really hoping for: Building Shin from hitting mobs. As someone who used Blademaster to get to Dragon (I avoided the high tier areas and stuck to outer islands), I am really excited about the upcoming changes (if they are still going through of course..)


    The reasons for previous refusal were based on players trying to use this to get full shin to enter groups...which frankly is already easy as is (just ask Jhui). Thankfully this has finally been accepted.


    What does building shin help with? It opens up a lot of doors for abilities that could be great for bashing as  Blademaster, but required shin. These are:


    Bind: Will return some health (very little) upon every slash, if the blademaster has 100 shin

    HealthTrans: Will be able to transfer some Shin into health

    Phoenix: In rare circumstances, if a Blademaster finds themselves in a near death situation, they can phoenix and hope to get out.


    Admittedly being able to use Strike Sternum against a mob with a slash would be a great, but i'll take what I can.
  • Antonius
    Antonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Asmodron said:
    Tahquil said:
    If you are a dragon and you can wear cloth armour you are bugged. Dragons should not be able to wear any armour.

    Tagging @Makarios because this still seems to be a thing.

    I also thought this, as did others, but apparently it is suppose to be a thing... it was very confusing
    Makarios has said multiple times they're not supposed to be able to. Until he comes along and says he's changed his mind and it's staying I'll consider it a bug.
    LiyaneMelodie
  • Klendathu
    Klendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    IT's been some time since the inception of battlerage bashing, and numerous balancing tweaks to classes. In spite of numerous attempts to tone down certain classes and buff others in order to form an "equilibrium" for bashing, where all classes are supposedly equal, we are a far cry from anything like that.

    Knight (except snb), specifically Runewarden is still king.

    Artied serpent is second to none by an immense gap.

    Dragon is considered superior to all but these two classes. 

    Hahahahaahhaa haha aahaaaa... dude, that's hilarious. I use dragonform for Gare and the occasional big mob (Delos Guards, Mhun mage), bard for everything else.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    Israyhl
  • Tahquil
    Tahquil Member Posts: 4,546 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    Going to tag @Makarios again for clarification. Looking over his first comment when paragons came out he said No cloth armour for dragons. HELP ARMOUR says no armour for dragons. Reports of people issueing themselves and being told that cloth armour IS okay for dragons. Please to be making an official announcement on this?

    Edit: Also curious to see if Horkval can be allowed to wear cloth armour. They are the only lesserforms that can't utilise paragons due to not being able to wear any type of armour.
  • Xaden
    Xaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Been DWC Runewarden for the best part of 15 months now and I'm able to tank most shit. 7k lesserform health (incl. Runes) doesn't let you stand up to 2 slugs, without a bit of hit and run.

    My first class was monk, and it became quickly apparent when I came back in 2015 that to bash to dragon I was gonna need to multi-class.

    A few months ago, I tried monk out again and was very disappointed so I dropped it for Bard.

    I still dragonform for easy mode bashing on occasion or when I know people are out to gank me (ptv ftw).

    But both Runie and Bard just flat out feel quicker than dragon. If I have runes in Bard then my tanking ability pisses all over my DWC tanking ability.

    Though it's still infuriating to get WSC on the song blessing instead of the jab.

    To sum it all up, Arte'd dragon is obvs still best for higher level stuff, arte'd bard next, then runie.

    and monk still blows.

    Also, from alting: Lower level DW bashing is absolute dogshit compared to any class I've ever played.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    NataliiaLiyane
  • Antonius
    Antonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    My experience has been that Bard is better than everything when artied, including Serpent, especially if you hunt Annwyn (fuck you Sidhe ladies, I have dwinnu).

    I'd put alchemist above dragon too, it seemed pretty damn good last time I tested it (that that was a while ago). Bashing in dragon is for people who can't afford artefacts or refuse to pick up a good bashing class.
    Morthif
  • Xaden
    Xaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Should have said : My post all comes from a No Death Cape position.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

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