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The State of Bashing

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  • Asmodron
    Asmodron Member Posts: 3,145 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    Asmodron said:
    Tahquil said:
    If you are a dragon and you can wear cloth armour you are bugged. Dragons should not be able to wear any armour.

    Tagging @Makarios because this still seems to be a thing.

    I also thought this, as did others, but apparently it is suppose to be a thing... it was very confusing
    Makarios has said multiple times they're not supposed to be able to. Until he comes along and says he's changed his mind and it's staying I'll consider it a bug.

    At this point it is quite confusing.

    People have issued and been told it is fine. Makarios has been messaged (even by me) and informed about it several times, as well as tagged in some threads. I believe I recall him saying it is being discussed(?). I at the time was upset because I had gotten an SoA specifically on the idea that I cant have the SoA effect as a dragon.


    With so much time that has gone by, it only seemed logical to assume it is indeed a thing.
  • Sobriquet
    Sobriquet Member Posts: 2,807 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Klendathu said:
    Aegoth said:
    IT's been some time since the inception of battlerage bashing, and numerous balancing tweaks to classes. In spite of numerous attempts to tone down certain classes and buff others in order to form an "equilibrium" for bashing, where all classes are supposedly equal, we are a far cry from anything like that.

    Knight (except snb), specifically Runewarden is still king.

    Artied serpent is second to none by an immense gap.

    Dragon is considered superior to all but these two classes. 

    Hahahahaahhaa haha aahaaaa... dude, that's hilarious. I use dragonform for Gare and the occasional big mob (Delos Guards, Mhun mage), bard for everything else.
    With my lvl 3 BJ and soa (and tarot to help) I never hunted in Dragon, always as a Jester. Much faster, more utility and unless I was looking at a major mob I could tank everything pretty much. 
    image
  • Sarathai
    Sarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    Minifie said:
    Sarathai said:
    Minifie said:
    I'm not saying dragon should be awful, if I was +3 con and str and defensive artied 2h dragon should be better, but throw in a level 3 sword, 3 embrasure artied armour set for hunting, that's a hell of an investment, and being about 15% squishier than dragon and 25% offensively stronger would be fair.
    Dragons can wear cloth armour. All they miss is the "dedicated" L3 weapon nowadays, along with access to Nimble/Quick-Witted in dform for that valuable speed boost.
    Then shouldn't they be defensively the best, but middle of the road offensively?
    Cloth armour gives no defensive benefit in and of itself, but can provide very valuable offensive bashing tools via the paragons. In theory you could also get artied armour for defensive benefits and pass up the crit increases to go in the other direction, so it really depends on what paragons you get. In my case, as a death caped dragon with a full set of L3 defensive arties and who is also (currently) the highest level player, there are not many places where said defense would be necessary.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    Liyane
  • Xaden
    Xaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Coming for you, Sarathai.

    (please go dormant for three years)
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Liyane
  • Kyrra
    Kyrra AustraliaMember Posts: 4,941 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Runewardens are supposed to be tanky though and their battlerage abilities reflect this. Bulwark soaks damage and Safeguard is an extra defend/protect that also soaks the damage when hunting with someone else. I always considered that being part of the support/utility aspect of the class, it's not just for flat out damage.

    In saying that though, when I solo hunt, I never use Safeguard. I rarely have to use Bulwark. I very rarely use Etch unless I want to see it world-shattering crit on a shark and blow it up like @Dunn blows up stolen infants.

    While I'm no longer artied to the teeth, I'm still pretty highly equipped for defensive artifacts so I can't really say much there compared to non-artied bashing. Hunting was so different back before I had any artifacts at all.


    Sylvan hunting though... unartied is so bad compared to when I last played a Sylvan. If I have a level 80 character, that has the Lucky trait and a level 1 crit pendant, I expect to at least be putting out -some- critical hits. I've no idea what hunting would be like up to 80 now, but Viridian just doesn't seem to put out much damage anymore and that is combined with Torrent and Stonevine for extra damage.

    I remember the Mirror Caves being a really viable place to hunt. If you were around level 60ish, you could start hunting the sileg and they were pretty decent for Meropis hunting at a lower level. I've now experienced a level 80 character taking around 8-10 minutes to kill a juvenile sileg because of just no crits at all. Not to mention the foxes and herons around the Asterion Peninsula, or the jackals in the Northern Scrublands. That is so awful.

    I'm not entirely sure that it's worth having a tanky class if they also can't put out the damage. I probably end up wasting more curatives on that character staying alive while waiting for something to die, and it's one instance where even if you hunt with someone else, you know you're contributing shit damage to the group effort.

    Since having gained a couple levels closer to 85 and upgrading to +2 critical hits, it's a drastic improvement but I'm unsure if upgrading my crit hit pendant sooner would have made much difference.

    I feel genuinely sorry for anyone that starts off with Sylvan these days and expects to hunt their way up without investing in artifacts or getting dragged around for experience. It seems pretty unbalanced.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • Antonius
    Antonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Asmodron said:
    Antonius said:
    Asmodron said:
    Tahquil said:
    If you are a dragon and you can wear cloth armour you are bugged. Dragons should not be able to wear any armour.

    Tagging @Makarios because this still seems to be a thing.

    I also thought this, as did others, but apparently it is suppose to be a thing... it was very confusing
    Makarios has said multiple times they're not supposed to be able to. Until he comes along and says he's changed his mind and it's staying I'll consider it a bug.

    At this point it is quite confusing.

    People have issued and been told it is fine. Makarios has been messaged (even by me) and informed about it several times, as well as tagged in some threads. I believe I recall him saying it is being discussed(?). I at the time was upset because I had gotten an SoA specifically on the idea that I cant have the SoA effect as a dragon.


    With so much time that has gone by, it only seemed logical to assume it is indeed a thing.
    The bolded is never really logical. Don't think "Well, it hasn't been fixed and it's been around for a while so it must be intended." Also don't believe what you're told by whoever handles an issue when it contradicts one of the co-producers of the game, especially when you might not know exactly what was asked. There's a vast difference between "(Is it possible to|Can I|Am I allowed to) wear cloth armour as a dragon?" and "Should it be possible to wear cloth armour as a dragon?" You can check the code to answer the former, but code generally doesn't tell you the intent (i.e. whether the code does what it was supposed to do) so you can't check the code to answer the latter.
  • Aegoth
    Aegoth Member Posts: 2,936 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ok ok, so I forgot about bard. Sheesh
    Asmodron
  • Antonius
    Antonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    My primary metric for comparing classes is average clear time for a specific area (usually something like the Sidhe or Unsidhe court, since they're relatively quick but also high level), since that will factor in things like how often I have to run to heal up as that class and how class-specific bonuses affect their ability to hunt the areas I care about.

    Then, purely for my own decision making, I'll factor in more subjective things, like how bashing feels as that class and how concerned I am about survivability. I much prefer to be doing things, so I'd take a class that attacks once every 2 seconds over one that attacks once every 4 seconds, even if all other factors are equal. If I feel like there's a high risk of dying as a specific class unless I'm overly cautious (or happen to get the right luck with crits at the right time), then I might favour a class that is a tiny bit slower in terms of clear speed, but is (almost) never going to lose time because I burst/died.
  • Frederich
    Frederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    95% certain we already played this pony-game of "DRAGONS ARENT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO WEAR ARMOUR!"

    Message #557 Sent by Dalinor

    11/20/21:44 Greetings! Regarding your issue #78030: It is currently allowable for dragons to wear cloth armour and to use paragons therein. Please let us know if you have any further questions via ISSUE ME!

    Asmodron
  • Vesios
    Vesios Member Posts: 243 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2017
    Daeir said:
    Elephant in the room:

    What metric are you using to compare bashing classes/specs to each other?

    Don't say DPS, because that isn't possible to obtain any more after the falcon assess changes, I believe.
    I assume it would be a combination of offensive and defensive capabilities, i.e:

    - Time to kill (TTK): how long it takes the classes to kill the same enemy, assuming equal level, equal traits and equal artifact level. This is inherently related to DPS, as DPS is a measure of damage output, but far more measurable as it's based off of time instead of concealed damage numbers. 

    - Tankiness: ability to withstand damage, again assuming the same enemy and the same level, traits and artifacts. I'd argue that endurance/willpower/class-specific energy pools fall into this category as well, as they directly contribute to how long you're able to bash without downtime. 

    Tankiness and TTK have an inverse relationship with each other; the lower your TTK (aka the faster you kill things), the less tankiness matters. The higher your tankiness, the less TTK matters. 

    Tankiness is implied to be more beneficial for bashing as it's both easier to itemize for (a hunter's belt will give you the extra con point no matter your class) and because, on average, classes have more defensive utility than offensive, which, when paired with the easier itemization, allows players to reach higher levels of health and damage mitigation without their chosen class having any major influence. 

    2h runewarden, when judged by these parameters, is by far the best bashing class, as it has access to high-tier damage mitigation (full plate and runelore, not to mention all the general abilities such as survival and avoidance and being a knight [tank] class in general, so high health pools), but at the same time still manages a decent TTK due to the 2h weaponmastery specialization and the offensive utility found in runelore. 
  • Antonius
    Antonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Sena did this with relatively high frequency (for DPS at least) when falcon assess testing for raw DPS was possible, but since it isn't, this is what we'll need to do now.
    Sena's DPS numbers weren't useful for actually comparing the effectiveness of classes, so I don't see the point in essentially repeating the same testing (but in a less accurate, and more time consuming, manner). DPS is only part of the equation, and you need some level of survivability to actually take advantage of high DPS. Having a theoretical DPS of 1000 is meaningless if you spend 50% of your time not attacking because you can't tank hits; at that point your actual DPS is 500.
    Aegoth
  • Aegoth
    Aegoth Member Posts: 2,936 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    Daeir said:
    TTK is meaningless on crittable mobs due to the confounding factor that level makes.

    Tankiness is similarly meaningless because to my knowledge, nobody has accurately devised a means of recording a measure of incoming DPS (iDPS henceforth). All of these opinions that people post regarding 2h runewarden, Serpent or whatever are essentially meaningless and aren't backed up by anything objective.

    So here's what I propose:

    • Find an uncrittable mob, preferably one with a relatively low respawn time. I can't think of any that aren't immediately super lethal off the top of my head - the super bashers like @Sarathai might know of a few.
    • On this uncrittable mob and using standard configurations of gear (ie: base unartied gear, artefacted gear with +3 main stat and l3 weapon, on a STANDARD race and specialization), chart out effective DPS by measuring the TTK of said mob in said configuration. This will give us a concrete baseline to work from without any confounding values involved.
    • On the same mob, chart out iDPS by recording all incoming damage across a flat number of attacks, preferably in a value larger than 50. 150 or 200 attacks would be an acceptable, albeit small sample size. 1k+ would be ideal. 
    • Chart out all incoming healing through either improved regeneration (berkana, uruz, harmonics, etc) as well and deduct iDPS by this value once it is discovered.
    These will give us concrete values that directly represent a certain class/spec's proficiency at bashing. Only when we have values found in this measure (or a similar one) can we make any form of meaningful claim regarding the state of a particular class versus another. Sena did this with relatively high frequency (for DPS at least) when falcon assess testing for raw DPS was possible, but since it isn't, this is what we'll need to do now.

    Alternatively, Makarios could just dump the adjusted DPS values for each and every bashing attack and release their scaling factors from stats, but I sincerely doubt that'll happen.
    I mean, you can talk numbers and math until you're blue in the face. The fact is that tanking IS immensely important. sitting im a room being able to laugh as 7 vertani wail on you while critting away is far more efficient and effective bashing than hit/running.

    Calculating dps is all well and good, but when crits become a factor, speed is far more important than actual dps, hence why artied serpent and bard are having such a ball. Having a baseline is good, and sure, math away like it's a statistics class, but you also need to account for the other factors that are attributing to the very real gap in bashing classes right now, and math isn't going to solve that.

    tldr: Math is not the ultimate answer to life, the universe and everything

    Edit: also what Antonius said
    Liyane
  • Mathilda
    Mathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Math is absolutely the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything.

    We just don't know how to factor in tanking ability and crit rates properly. For now.
     <3 
    LiyaneBadeVessilIniar
  • Issam
    Issam Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 217 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2017
    (Disclaimer: Newb who has never made it to dragon)

    In terms of raw damage, I'm not sure that's where monk suffers. With 18 str and level 3 knuckles, scorpion stance, damage before crits seems pretty reasonable, and within the range of what I see others putting out. The problem seems to me that the monk kit in terms of PvP is very active/reactive with competing drains, and a lot of this does not translate to PvE. Kai generation is out completely in solo PvE, which means things like kai heal which would keep you alive in a fight don't apply. Leather armour and toughness don't go far in terms of mitigation, and the defensive bonus offered by bodyblock seems very marginal. Options like numb are good for hitting and running, but having to lean on it is a big drain to efficiency when comparatively you could just bash as a class with high armor and not run the risk. Vitality is great, but vitality has a cooldown, and once it fires you're probably already in a very dangerous spot. Transmute is also great, but you need even more investment to take advantage of it regularly if you're not in an int-heavy spec already, and if you are, you have bigger problems to deal with.

    Since I tank like paper, I have to spec my stats to maximize my constitution as the entry fee for bashing higher tier areas, which accordingly makes my combos pretty wimpy. I feel like classes with higher mitigation have more wiggle room here, which if nothing else, makes the experience and 'feel' more enjoyable.

    Off the top of my head, maybe having bodyblock mitigation against denizens be affected by stance could help? My understanding is that it's a (low) amount of static resistance, vs. players where it's a chance of halving damage. This chance is significantly modified by your stance, but the PvE side doesn't work that way. Maybe the damage reduction could be modified by stance such that, for instance, you might want to use cat stance against high damage mobs, sacrificing your combo speed for sheer mitigation and therefore reducing the chance that you explode in one hit.

  • Mizik
    Mizik Member Posts: 2,253 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    DWC Runie is super duper.
    image
    Kyrra
  • Sarathai
    Sarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:

    It sounds like there is a lot of confusion surrounding the dragons with artefact armour situation. Nicola and I will talk about this today and decide on a final stance. Apologies for the conflicting information there, it sounds like there's been a communication error somewhere.

    Whether or not it factors (factored?) in, to me it seems weird for dragons to not get access to the bashing paragons, since they enhance what they're (partially/strongly) designed for.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • Morthif
    Morthif Member Posts: 1,747 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Speed in all things Achaea is King. Bard and serpent are speed kings. 
    Nataliia
  • Frederich
    Frederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    @Makarios

    It's mostly from the tanking potential of monks.  That's the major issue.

    Something changed, earlier, or has always been different.  I went to Azdun earlier, and the stack of 9 goblin zombies that, on any normal day, I would plow through, ended up forcing me back and actually making me run.  This is a stark contrast to before, during the great hunt in which I can just sit there and facetank.  Then again, I likely also had a fully charged cape at that point (or hunting runes).  The issue with monks isn't their damage.  Their damage is really good, and because they're fast, it makes combat feel more intuitive compared to say... Dragon.  Who are slow, clunky, and have a reallyyy slow shield breaker move that does some damage.  Whereas with monk I just roundhouse kick that shit away and punch twice.  It doesn't slow me down, or make me feel slower.

    The downside is, monks are about as tanky as wet paper.  Put simply, they need the artefacts to be able to hunt.  Without arties, I am fairly certain I wouldn't be able to hunt Vertani, let alone anything that groups.
  • Frederich
    Frederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    Double post; oops.

    As a note, another reasons why weapon classes are generally better is that they don't have 5000 arties they need to buy.  An artie rapier will increase your damage, to hit, AND your speed. It costs about the same as monk knuckles (which only increase your fistycuffs damage).

    Not to mention a lot of classes can use shield of absorption, which, from every single person I've seen in this thread is talking about, seems to be a factor in some fashion.  The classes that can't wield the shield effectively (Druid, BM, Monk), are the ones that people are going "GOOD GOD NO NOT AGAIN!!!"  Though, 2h runie and dwc are better off because they just have an absurd amount of tankiness.  I guess.

    Now it also comes to a group hunting dynamic as well.  What can these classes bring to the table?

    Bards can charm foes, as well as provide significant defensive abilities in the form of harmonics, alongside these are offensive because canticle and faster attacking.  Or whatever.

    Runies?  They can heal.  Their BR makes them and friends take less damage.  They can also jump in the way of attacks for you.  Literally never a bad choice.

    Priests/Paladins need not have a say in this because lay on hands is the good shit right there.

    Monks/BMs/Druids from what I know don't provide much of anything to group combat, generally squishy and have few defensive techniques besides "just leave and come back"... and that's about it.

    Monks/BMs from before had reallllyy bad damage, and terrible tankiness.  Now they have great damage, but are still terribly squishy without a ton of defensive arties to buff them up.  (And Monk suffers moreso for this, because he has a lot of arties needed to make his offensive better.  Since BMs can simply buy one thing and get 5%-15% speed and damage.  Which generate a higher net DPS)
  • Alrena
    Alrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    I think what matters a lot is WP/END drain too, which isn't equal among the classes. Knights can bash all day and not feel it, some classes run out of endurance or willpower after two hours of bashing, or less. You can balance tankiness with dps and vice versa, but not having to worry about resource drains is a huge advantage too. 
    image
  • Zahan
    Zahan ValhallaMember Posts: 203 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Frederich Not trying to diminish your point, since clearly monk is disadvantaged and bard is the penultimate, but canticle no longer affects the bard who owns it.

    Knowing is half the battle!
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  • Frederich
    Frederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    I know @Zahan .  That's why I brought that up as a group hunting bonus.  Hence why it was listed under that as such.
  • Prythe
    Prythe Member Posts: 545 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I only Hunt in Dragon, but I am still trying to figure out why/how Runewarden (the Class I had to assume) is considered better than Dragon for Hunting.


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    Zbaco
  • Zahan
    Zahan ValhallaMember Posts: 203 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Frederich said:
    I know @Zahan .  That's why I brought that up as a group hunting bonus.  Hence why it was listed under that as such.
    Ah yes I see that now.  My bad.

    But seriously, who even hunts in a group anymore.  Seems more productive to focus on bashing balance in a solo situation, since that's mostly how it's done.
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  • Liyane
    Liyane Member Posts: 103 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Alrena said:
    I think what matters a lot is WP/END drain too, which isn't equal among the classes. Knights can bash all day and not feel it, some classes run out of endurance or willpower after two hours of bashing, or less. You can balance tankiness with dps and vice versa, but not having to worry about resource drains is a huge advantage too. 
    After playing runewarden I did wonder "what's the point of endurance and willpower?" Only after doing some alts did I realize haha
    Mizik
  • Frederich
    Frederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    As a monk, I hunted Dun Fort with a magi friend whenever I wasn't artied up that well.  We both got good XP and did it at 2x the rate we normally would have.  Was great, since neither of us could fully tank without having to run (since we didn't want to put crystals down every room).

    Also, group hunting (in a 2 person or 3 person setting) is fun because it lets people talk, and enjoy company instead of walk to room.  F1.  Continue walking around.
  • Issam
    Issam Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 217 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Monk defenses + needed use of transmute + clotting sparingly runs me near entirely out of willpower clearing Sirocco, and that's with a permanent megalith, philosophy and circlet of will (full disclosure, I could definitely be doing something wrong). I was going to classlead a suggestion to let monks use mind crush to bash with for those stuck in intellimonk temporarily, but thought better after realizing I'd probably just knock myself unconscious doing so :anguished:

    Endurance though, I can kick and punch all day and never even break a sweat. Seems a bit off.

  • Shayde
    Shayde Member Posts: 347 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I prefer hunting with at least another serpent, especially in areas where the mobs group in more than twos or threes. Evading back and forth with grouped mobs is not my cup of tea when I have limited time to bash. While I do have the standard set of lvl 2 serpent artefacts, I still need to get the armour and cape to be a little more effective.



  • Krypton
    Krypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 2,377 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    Edit: Also curious to see if Horkval can be allowed to wear cloth armour. They are the only lesserforms that can't utilise paragons due to not being able to wear any type of armour.
    Makarios said:

    Misc
    ----
    * Members of the Horkval race may now wear cloth armour.
    Tahquil
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