Why do you play your class?

Aerek

I started a Priest because I wanted to explore a religious man living in a secular society. (I, myself, am a secular man living in a religious society) I had a lot of fun in the role, and Priest was a good class for a newb without much income and no MUD experience, but I don't know that I was ever "in love" with the class.

I absolutely was in love with the Knight archetype, though. Both in real life and in Achaea's world, I find the idea of individuals with hard-coded ethics and an unwillingness to compromise on them regardless of consequence to be highly romantic. When I was more experienced and older, I transitioned from Priest to Paladin to combine the character I was already playing with the character I -wanted- to play, and then eventually to Runewarden as the religious/political landscape shifted. While I absolutely love Paladin/Runewarden as classes, (not to mention Infernal) I'd say it's really the lore of them that cemented them as part of my identity, especially the player-made history and complex relationship of the old Knight Guilds/Houses. I think the flavor and history of Achaean Knighthood is an interesting blend of real-world and distinctly Achaean themes, and is largely unique within Achaea for its unusual respect between otherwise openly opposed factions. 

I took up Blademaster first for mechanical reasons: except for venom use, Blademaster's combat approach is very similar to DSL Knight except more lethal and far more flexible. Initially, I even found the anime-samurai aspect of Blademaster to be rather trite, but the legend of Lucaine Pyramides was also very romantic and engrossing, and as time has changed the landscape of the game and my own approach to it, I've come to identify more with the lone swordsman archetype, especially now that I am a wandering ronin in a fairly literal sense.

Batista

Those feels, @Aerek. I compared my character to a ronin the other day when speaking with a friend, thanks to being rogue and the death of knighthood in Achaea.

I might have some kind of terrible emotional moment if I ever swapped out my scimitars for a different weapon, though.

Knighthood was the reason I played Achaea. It feels like an empty experience to play it without that strong formal structure in place.

Aodfionn

What ever happened to that Knighthood council stuff?

Aerek

@Aodfionn Targossas ruled they didn't want Knighthood, Mhaldor and Eluesis' orders wanted to keep it class-pure, Hashan and Cyrene's orders wanted to let all classes in. A compromise was eventually pounded out between the member orders, and a charter defining and standardizing Knighthood was written with input from all four. When it came time for implementation, Cyrene's Senate overruled the Lady of the Spire and surgically altered the charter so it was essentially un-enforceable and meaningless.

I resigned after that, so I couldn't tell you where it went from there. There was never a lot of interest in it, class RP declining and all, so it's probably just languishing waiting for someone to care about it.

Batista

I think an institution like Knighthood has to have the acceptance and recognition of the major world powers in order to *really* work. Otherwise, we're just a bunch of idiots with swords and a code of conduct that keeps us from doing everything the organization might want us to do militarily.

That makes us basically a bunch of pains in the ass, and possibly more trouble than we're worth.

Minifie

Just do something with it, I've done it once with the paladins and it felt awesome. It actually felt like an achievement, and it's something that can still keep the feel of those old guild-like difficult requirements and givingn out an incredibly satisfying reward but keeps 0 gameplay-based mechanics gated

If the players wanted it you could extend it too, but we'd have to create those new systems. Leave knighthood to knight classes, but also implement messiah for other classes, or similar based-city titles all could earn (archdruid, messiah, dominator et al). This would be something that I'd be incredibly excited to have and be apart of, but the question of who would bother is the hurdle.

just to add on: this is the reason minifie keeps runewarden. I WANT knighthood, it's a goal that is there for her and ingrained in her for a challenge, being recognised by previously great knights and becoming one as well. This is something that shouldn't have died with autoclass and then the renaissaince, but it seems it has declined heavily.

Aodfionn

The few times I spoke to random CLs about it, the general impression I always got was "we'll recognize it if someone builds it, but we're not committing our time/energy to build it."

Batista

Minifie said:

Just do something with it, I've done it once with the paladins and it felt awesome. It actually felt like an achievement, and it's something that can still keep the feel of those old guild-like difficult requirements and givingn out an incredibly satisfying reward but keeps 0 gameplay-based mechanics gated

If the players wanted it you could extend it too, but we'd have to create those new systems. Leave knighthood to knight classes, but also implement messiah for other classes, or similar based-city titles all could earn (archdruid, messiah, dominator et al). This would be something that I'd be incredibly excited to have and be apart of, but the question of who would bother is the hurdle.

just to add on: this is the reason minifie keeps runewarden. I WANT knighthood, it's a goal that is there for her and ingrained in her for a challenge, being recognised by previously great knights and becoming one as well. This is something that shouldn't have died with autoclass and then the renaissaince, but it seems it has declined heavily.

Be careful what you wish for. I might have to come back just to help this out.

Minifie

Batista said:

Minifie said:

Just do something with it, I've done it once with the paladins and it felt awesome. It actually felt like an achievement, and it's something that can still keep the feel of those old guild-like difficult requirements and givingn out an incredibly satisfying reward but keeps 0 gameplay-based mechanics gated

If the players wanted it you could extend it too, but we'd have to create those new systems. Leave knighthood to knight classes, but also implement messiah for other classes, or similar based-city titles all could earn (archdruid, messiah, dominator et al). This would be something that I'd be incredibly excited to have and be apart of, but the question of who would bother is the hurdle.

just to add on: this is the reason minifie keeps runewarden. I WANT knighthood, it's a goal that is there for her and ingrained in her for a challenge, being recognised by previously great knights and becoming one as well. This is something that shouldn't have died with autoclass and then the renaissaince, but it seems it has declined heavily.

Be careful what you wish for. I might have to come back just to help this out.

So not only do I get knighthood back but Batista too? 

That would be the equivilant of batista during the attitude era of WWE. DO WANT

edit: to be fair I'd be incredibly motivated to have a knighthood high clan, probably with a council member from one of each city or something similar. Definitely something to push for later IMO

Batista

*shakes the ropes violently, points thumbs downward*

I wonder if I can petition to rename disembowel to Batista Bomb?

Minifie

Batista said:

*shakes the ropes violently, points thumbs downward*

I wonder if I can petition to rename disembowel to Batista Bomb?

Only if we can get an eff you finisher and a deathsight about how someone's heart was stopped by the most electrifying elbow in achaean history

Batista

Minifie said:

Batista said:

*shakes the ropes violently, points thumbs downward*

I wonder if I can petition to rename disembowel to Batista Bomb?

Only if we can get an eff you finisher and a deathsight about how someone's heart was stopped by the most electrifying elbow in achaean history

IF YA SMEEEEELLLLALALALALALALLLLLALALA-OWWW....

What The MINIFIE...

Is cookin'.

*music*

If we ever do Rasslefest (TM) again, BATMONTER welcomes you to challenge for the title, MINIFEAR.

Aerek

Aodfionn said:

The few times I spoke to random CLs about it, the general impression I always got was "we'll recognize it if someone builds it [specifically to suit our faction], but we're not committing our time/energy to build it willing to compromise in any way to accommodate the other factions."

Fixed that up, given the several real years I spent attempting to do exactly this. I was willing to do the work, and the leaders of the Knightly orders were usually willing to have a dialogue and compromise with the other orders, but city leaders generally balked at the idea of a neutral body having any authority over Knighthood at all. With Targ in particular, it was most often a set of moving goalposts; you guys weren't "against" Knighthood, but it couldn't come with any restrictions or caveats whatsoever, so the conversation essentially ended when the Knightly "codes" came up.

Basically, everyone wanted "their" Knighting program and didn't care about the other factions', not realizing that cooperating and compromising on universal standards between houses/orders was kinda the whole tradition of Achaean Knighthood.

Exelethril

Aerek, those were good conversations several years ago. I re-wrote the entire Eleusian Knights program and tried to enforce my idea of a primarily martial force and got rekt by Alrena when she was Speaker.

Then I saw random Hashani/people titling themselves Sir and realized that there wasn't any viable way to enforce standards. Added, all forms of significance is arguably just psychological anyways so I was like fk this.

Minifie

Honestly it feels like a system that should be ripped away from letting cities decide and taking some knights and starting a new neutral clan that specifically does it to our own standards. If random douchenuggets are knighting themselves willy nilly who cares of people like aerek and batista oversee people who are actually interested in a rigerous and, possibly, satisfying experience of reaching knighthood? Hell, you could then approach cities as a group of non-citied people to see if they want to adopt our system or leave them behind.

at this point the system is almost completely dead, so might as well give it one last breath and, at worse, it's in our hands instead of sir random 19 year old who's ranked 2000th and 0% of someone's might.

edit. Stuff it, I'm happy to pot my own gold into a clan and approach knights from each city myself to lead it. I'm honestly just keen to see that area revived and given meaning that if it costs me a million gold+ to get it moving then it's worth it.

Aodfionn

Aerek said:

Aodfionn said:

The few times I spoke to random CLs about it, the general impression I always got was "we'll recognize it if someone builds it [specifically to suit our faction], but we're not committing our time/energy to build it willing to compromise in any way to accommodate the other factions."

Fixed that up, given the several real years I spent attempting to do exactly this. 

Aerek

Exelethril said:

Aerek, those were good conversations several years ago. I re-wrote the entire Eleusian Knights program and tried to enforce my idea of a primarily martial force and got rekt by Alrena when she was Speaker.

Then I saw random Hashani/people titling themselves Sir and realized that there wasn't any viable way to enforce standards. Added, all forms of significance is arguably just psychological anyways so I was like fk this.

I do miss the whole thing. I don't think it's as much about standards as about culture. You can have all the standards in the world, but if no one cares, no one will follow them. Conversely, if you build a culture, you don't need written standards, and everyone will still try hard to live up to the norm; that's just harder to do. I tried to find the middle ground, writing out -basic- standards and leaving the rest to culture. At the end, I was pretty excited about the Charter and how it was a reflection of each member's perspective on the tradition. It was a lot of work and headache, but it was worth it. I assume it's still there if anyone ever wants to try again.

Minifie

Aerek said:

Exelethril said:

Aerek, those were good conversations several years ago. I re-wrote the entire Eleusian Knights program and tried to enforce my idea of a primarily martial force and got rekt by Alrena when she was Speaker.

Then I saw random Hashani/people titling themselves Sir and realized that there wasn't any viable way to enforce standards. Added, all forms of significance is arguably just psychological anyways so I was like fk this.

I do miss the whole thing. I don't think it's as much about standards as about culture. You can have all the standards in the world, but if no one cares, no one will follow them. Conversely, if you build a culture, you don't need written standards, and everyone will still try hard to live up to the norm; that's just harder to do. I tried to find the middle ground, writing out -basic- standards and leaving the rest to culture. At the end, I was pretty excited about the Charter and how it was a reflection of each member's perspective on the tradition. It was a lot of work and headache, but it was worth it. I assume it's still there if anyone ever wants to try again.

Send it my way, Minifie is no knight but the idea of her hunting down former glorious knights of sapience to hold court over a lost tradition would be a wonderful and amazing roleplay arc.

Nazihk

Aerek said:
city leaders generally balked at the idea of a neutral body having any authority over Knighthood at all. With Targ in particular, it was most often a set of moving goalposts; you guys weren't "against" Knighthood, but it couldn't come with any restrictions or caveats whatsoever, so the conversation essentially ended when the Knightly "codes" came up.

Batista said:

I think an institution like Knighthood has to have the acceptance and recognition of the major world powers in order to *really* work. Otherwise, we're just a bunch of idiots with swords and a code of conduct that keeps us from doing everything the organization might want us to do militarily.

That makes us basically a bunch of pains in the ass, and possibly more trouble than we're worth.

Why would recognition keep you from being a pain in the ass with a code of conduct that limits your ability to participate in military actions? You'd just end up being a recognized pain in the ass with a code of conduct that limits your ability to participate in military actions. 

The thing you have to ask here is what the cities would gain from officially recognizing Knighthood. Right now, the answer is nothing. Even from an RP vantage, the answer is nothing. Honestly, it is against good RP for some organizations, Targossans specifically. We're sworn to serve the will of the Bloodsworn and dedicated to saving Creation from Chaos and Evil and Darkness. What possible reason would we have to agree to codes of conduct that would demand that we give Evil a fair fight? We're zealous crusaders over here, not Lawful Stupid. 

If the only thing Knighthood has to offer cities is restrictions on their fighters, why would they want to recognize it? 

Minifie

Nazihk said:

Aerek said:
city leaders generally balked at the idea of a neutral body having any authority over Knighthood at all. With Targ in particular, it was most often a set of moving goalposts; you guys weren't "against" Knighthood, but it couldn't come with any restrictions or caveats whatsoever, so the conversation essentially ended when the Knightly "codes" came up.

Batista said:

I think an institution like Knighthood has to have the acceptance and recognition of the major world powers in order to *really* work. Otherwise, we're just a bunch of idiots with swords and a code of conduct that keeps us from doing everything the organization might want us to do militarily.

That makes us basically a bunch of pains in the ass, and possibly more trouble than we're worth.

Why would recognition keep you from being a pain in the ass with a code of conduct that limits your ability to participate in military actions? You'd just end up being a recognized pain in the ass with a code of conduct that limits your ability to participate in military actions. 

The thing you have to ask here is what the cities would gain from officially recognizing Knighthood. Right now, the answer is nothing. Even from an RP vantage, the answer is nothing. Honestly, it is against good RP for some organizations, Targossans specifically. We're sworn to serve the will of the Bloodsworn and dedicated to saving Creation from Chaos and Evil and Darkness. What possible reason would we have to agree to codes of conduct that would demand that we give Evil a fair fight? We're zealous crusaders over here, not Lawful Stupid. 

If the only thing Knighthood has to offer cities is restrictions on their fighters, why would they want to recognize it? 

Not all targossians are crazed zealots, and if it opens more pathways to potential RP directions for players why not? Why would anyone want to be in a city when they could rogue? It just puts restrictions on their actions and their characters.

Nazihk

There are always RP options that cities could take but that they shouldn't take. IMO, this is one of those. 

Targossas has tried hard to avoid the "Lawful Stupid" mentality that pervades the capital-G Good organizations in games like this, and they've also tried to take a more zealous/militaristic stance on things. In my experience, they have mostly been successful. A knightly honor code between them and the organizations they are opposed to is a step backwards from that.

Aodfionn

Targ came down hard on anything that remotely resembled knighthood. Imo, that was a huge shame, because there is definitely room for people who want to play the more honorable 'noble service to Good' role.

Anedhel

You can still do it, without the title! Annie did something stupid and maybe admirable just two nights ago!

Aerek

Nazihk said:

If the only thing Knighthood has to offer cities is restrictions on their fighters, why would they want to recognize it? 

On an IC level, because Knights are generally trustworthy and respected beyond their own faction, and thus make good diplomats and envoys. Because being Knighted brings world-wide prestige to the individual and their faction; foreigners don't usually respect city/house titles, but people respect Knight titles when they're legit. Because Knighthood is a legacy passed down from old Seleucar, carried forward by Guilds and Houses in several cities, thus a part of those cities' culture for centuries. Because Knights are required by their code to be model citizens, embodying everything the faction teaches through the lens of honour, and thus make good soldiers, leaders, and role models.

On an OOC level, because Knighthood is cool, and you want your faction to be cool. Because Knighthood is a high-RP avenue, and you want good RP in your faction. Because some players really like the Knight archetype, which takes commitment, and you generally want players with that kind of commitment in your faction. Because Knighthood as an international phenomenon opens up unusual and interesting interactions, such as the old inter-House Knight Tournaments, or that time a 19-year-old Page saved Cyrene from Xenomorph by dueling him on the Great Rock. Because it makes for a great story, and great stories are what make Achaea great.

To be clear, I'm not upset Targ didn't stick with Knighthood. It was a sad blow to the Templar institution and caused a pretty large exodus to Cyrene of old Templar players, but it's a valid decision. I'm disappointed that the whole sphere of Knighthood roleplay has atrophied pretty significantly, and so the thing I loved most about Achaea is kinda gone.

Trey

Speaking of the Asterian Restoration, if ANYONE has one of those watercolour paintings from that set of three (the one that shifts between Imperial Ashtan, Shallam and Seleucar), hit me up. I've been blathering on about it over market enough, and I'm getting it for their display, not mine.

Trey

Aerek said:

Nazihk said:

If the only thing Knighthood has to offer cities is restrictions on their fighters, why would they want to recognize it? 

On an IC level, because Knights are generally trustworthy and respected beyond their own faction, and thus make good diplomats and envoys. Because being Knighted brings world-wide prestige to the individual and their faction; foreigners don't usually respect city/house titles, but people respect Knight titles when they're legit. Because Knighthood is a legacy passed down from old Seleucar, carried forward by Guilds and Houses in several cities, thus a part of those cities' culture for centuries. Because Knights are required by their code to be model citizens, embodying everything the faction teaches through the lens of honour, and thus make good soldiers, leaders, and role models.

On an OOC level, because Knighthood is cool, and you want your faction to be cool. Because Knighthood is a high-RP avenue, and you want good RP in your faction. Because some players really like the Knight archetype, which takes commitment, and you generally want players with that kind of commitment in your faction. Because Knighthood as an international phenomenon opens up unusual and interesting interactions, such as the old inter-House Knight Tournaments, or that time a 19-year-old Page saved Cyrene from Xenomorph by dueling him on the Great Rock. Because it makes for a great story, and great stories are what make Achaea great.

To be clear, I'm not upset Targ didn't stick with Knighthood. It was a sad blow to the Templar institution and caused a pretty large exodus to Cyrene of old Templar players, but it's a valid decision. I'm disappointed that the whole sphere of Knighthood roleplay has atrophied pretty significantly, and so the thing I loved most about Achaea is kinda gone.

Bolded can't be said better.

Farrah

Targ has knights who bear the "Sir" title still, though. I'm surprised the city was so against it but a bunch of them wear the title.

Knighthood has never been particularly interesting to me, as an outsider. I've never really seen any particular code abided by Knights. There are Knights who duel, Knights who don't fight if they can't win, and Knights who don't fight at all. There are Knights who are polite and Knights who are extremely rude. Knights who claim their code doesn't apply in Annwyn (lol), etc. And this was when the Knight Houses still existed, not people who claim to be Knights but didn't "earn" it.

There's also the class limitation, which makes sense in the class rp sense, but not at all in terms of how the game works, since class has no bearing on whether a person is honorable, etc. This takes some legitimacy away from Knighthood because it's basically trying to say "these are the model citizens of our city" but you can only be a model citizen if you're a particular class? Not to mention Knights aren't really model citizens for every city, for the reasons Nazihk stated.

I wouldn't mind having a Knighthood program in Targ for the purpose of improving diplomacy, etc. (if we're going to have all these old Knights bearing the title, why wouldn't we allow new ones?) and because I do like variety. Those who are Knights aren't going to be regarded as superior servants, though, if that's the idea.

Mishgul

Knighthood has always been a grey zone in how it is defined. Which is fine. Institutions such as knighthood are always going to be fragile, it only takes one guy who wants to ruin it to ruin the whole thing for everyone, because of the whole  "trying to enforce standards" thing across a lot of cities, many of whom don't want to.

Krypton

Who did Sir Piggly's knighting ceremony, that's what I'd like to know.

Aerek

Farrah said:

I've never really seen any particular code abided by Knights. There are Knights who duel, Knights who don't fight if they can't win, and Knights who don't fight at all. There are Knights who are polite and Knights who are extremely rude. Knights who claim their code doesn't apply in Annwyn (lol), etc. And this was when the Knight Houses still existed, not people who claim to be Knights but didn't "earn" it.

There's also the class limitation, which makes sense in the class rp sense, but not at all in terms of how the game works, since class has no bearing on whether a person is honorable, etc. This takes some legitimacy away from Knighthood because it's basically trying to say "these are the model citizens of our city" but you can only be a model citizen if you're a particular class? Not to mention Knights aren't really model citizens for every city, for the reasons Nazihk stated.

People failing to live up to their various ethical codes isn't really news. In real life, most "Knights" never embodied the vaunted ideals that they were supposed to, but we still tell stories of Galahad and Lancelot as "ideal" Knights that inspire us. Even in the Achaean mythos, Damen Kephry wrote a long letter calling out a bunch of Castle of Twelve Knights for breaking various rules and etiquettes during the lead-up to the Succession wars. Knighthood and how it's defined and practiced is absolutely a grey area, and almost no one agrees 100% on what it should be, but that's what makes it interesting. You can debate all day what makes a good/bad Harbinger, but that doesn't mean anything to anyone not in Targossas. There are Knights in all 6 cities, with various reputations and claims to legitimacy, so the debate on being a good/bad Knight is a topic that a lot more folks have an opinion on. In contrast to the cut-and-dry faction RP that invariably boils down to "I'm right because my God said so," Knighthood is absolutely political RP, where one is only "right" when a majority of other Knights share your views, which means it's a much more nuanced story, and I find that a lot more compelling.

People always misunderstand the reason for the class argument, in my opinion. You don't have to be a knight class to act "Knightly", but that's irrelevant; it's that the knight classes are Knighthood's history, dating all the way back to Selecuar where they invented falconry and the "Eternal Capital" style of combat that became Chivalry and Weaponmastery. Don't think of Knighthood as a profession, Knighthood is a religion where its warrior-monks learn a particular form of martial arts passed down through generations, and hold to deep-set codes of ethics with religious zealotry. (It just happens to be a "secular" religion that can be adapted to other religions, the way Buddhism sometimes is) Claiming to be a "Knight" and not knowing the Knight skills is just like claiming to be "Christian" and never going to church. Sure, some Christians will agree that church isn't required to be Christian, but a lot of Christians would disagree with that, too. Those debates within the Knight community are/were part of its compelling narrative, though it's obvious that my side lost in the end.

But I should probably stop hijacking this thread.