Factional Classes

Asmodron

Anyone that thinks Hashan doesnt have a factional identity, clearly isnt looking hard enough, or is extremely lazy....

Xaden

Mathilda said:

It's not that Hashan doesn't have a strong factional identity -- it does. The problem is that it's hidden away due to historical reasons. Everyone sees Hashan as this weird city that fights for nebulous reasons, which makes it hard because a big part of factional conflict (not just combat) is defined by why your enemies are against you.

Everyone knows what Good/Nature/Chaos/Evil is, everyone can say why they're against it, and everyone can say why their own faction is The Best Above The Rest. This cannot be said of Darkness, not because there's nothing there, but because what is there is unknown.

Something something if a tree falls in a forest but no one knows, does it exist.

The nature of darkness is actually a great discussion to have as a Targossian / follower of Light due almost entirely to the how little is really known about it.

You guys also have Kasa and Regi, that's win enough in my book!

Kenway

Tbh even after joining Hashan I had trouble taking it seriously till I got to know those two. They are indeed the shit.

Shirszae

Darkness as a concept is still too obscure. Which I know, makes sense. But at the same time... all other factions are much easier to explain, and even oft-misunderstood ones like Good are still easy to understand once you devote a moment to it. 

I feel like that obscurity is part of Darkness, but at the same time I feel like that will always keep it below all other as far as an ethos goes.

Calyn

Hashan should at least sell their own citizenry on Darkness at HR 1 or 2.

Darkness is obscure, sure. On the other hand, if your enemy's propaganda (HI @Daeir!) is better than the introduction to your city, why not just start off by giving new people a copy of "To Serve Sapience" and say "Yes, it's a cookbook. You can be the chef or an entree. You in?"

Antonius

Asmodron said:

Anyone that thinks Hashan doesnt have a factional identity, clearly isnt looking hard enough, or is extremely lazy....

I feel like a faction's identity shouldn't be something you have to "look hard" for, it should be really obvious and in your face, at least in the broadest sense. Mhaldor's factional identity is obviously "we serve Evil", even if you don't have any idea what "Evil" in Achaea actually means.

Calyn

Anyway, we're getting away from the real issue: More people in other factions should play Occultist.

Would you like a casino where you can win and feel like a real class, lose because RNG and no paralysis are fun, and then get a stern talking to from management because they've decided your craps throwing form is a bit too good for the players around you?

(again, tongue in cheek and trying to defuse the Hashan bomb I helped start)

Nazihk

Mathilda said:

It's not that Hashan doesn't have a strong factional identity -- it does. The problem is that it's hidden away due to historical reasons. Everyone sees Hashan as this weird city that fights for nebulous reasons, which makes it hard because a big part of factional conflict (not just combat) is defined by why your enemies are against you.

Everyone knows what Good/Nature/Chaos/Evil is, everyone can say why they're against it, and everyone can say why their own faction is The Best Above The Rest. This cannot be said of Darkness, not because there's nothing there, but because what is there is unknown.

Something something if a tree falls in a forest but no one knows, does it exist.

This isn't helped by the way that Regi is always so quick to go "Nooooo, this isn't Twilight's city, we're not tied that closely to him, we're not like Mhaldor or Targossas, this isn't the City of Darkness, we're not a subsidiary of Twilight Incorporated, honest!".

Asmodron said:

Anyone that thinks Hashan doesnt have a factional identity, clearly isnt looking hard enough, or is extremely lazy....

If you have to look hard at all for it, you don't really have one. 

A good factional identity is something that a newbie can pick up before leaving character creation. A newbie can read HELP TARGOSSAS and they'll know what they're getting into. Maybe they won't know all the words to the song, but they'll be able to hum the melody pretty well. Same goes for Mhaldor and Ashtan and Eleusis. 

Hashan has nothing like that. What makes Hashan tick? What would make Hashan be the aggressor in a war? I spent four months there and I can't tell you. That's a problem.  Sure, maybe I didn't get into tons of RP, read up on your books, do House tasks, whatever. That doesn't matter. You should do that stuff because you like the factional identity, you shouldn't have to do it just to learn what it is.

Bade

I haven't been back long, but I know this argument of Hashan's lack of identity has been around for a long time. I don't agree, in fact its my favorite identity in the game. Yes the higher ideas are obscure but I think the basic idea of the city, the public face is you're free to improve yourself however you see fit, but bring what you've learned back to the city to help us all out. So while the city gives the impression of being part of Twilights larger plan, anybody who just wants to improve themselves are welcome. That's why any class makes sense within Hashan, though obviously the deities who give out powers wouldn't want you to be in Hashan, so you're welcome to come but we can't help it if you're excomunicated for it.

This was the same impression I got with the Serpetlords back in the dat and why I loved that house.

Antonius

I'm sorry, but "you're free to do whatever you want, as long as it tangentially benefits - or at least doesn't hinder - us" isn't a factional identity. There's a reason Ashtan is now the Seat of Chaos, and not still the City of "Freedom". Hashan also doesn't give "the impression of being part of Twilight's larger plan", and that's the problem.

If Hashan wants to be pre-Renaissance Ashtan, and have only a very tiny - and, in their case, generally unknown - part of the city actually be a faction worth giving a shit about, more power to them. They'll have to quit complaining about not being treated like a proper faction though.

Puxi

Just come to Mhaldor. We have cake.

Calira

Hashan serves Twilight's interests. From an OOC perspective, that is super easy to understand. Just because IC we pretend (or are fooled into thinking) otherwise doesn't mean that Hashan lacks an identity.

Nazihk

Daeir said:

It is a city patroned by the embodiment of deception and mysterious ends, openly proclaiming to not serve said elder god's interest.

This kind of shit is like people coming on to the forums and arguing that Chaos is not "bad" from a moral sense of view because they read the Enchiridion once in game, a text DELIBERATELY written to misdirect people about the nature of the lore in the game.

If you think that Twinkles doesn't have all five fingers in that sweet city-state pie, you're absolutely delusional. It might not be in the obvious way a la Sartan's "serve me or die" shtick or the Bloodsworn's.. "serve me or die" shtick, but it's there.

Twilight doesn't work as a cause, though. The whole deception and secrecy and invisible puppetmaster thing works as an identity for a small Order. It doesn't work as the identity for a large city, because it doesn't work if everybody in the city is in on it.

There would need to be a change in direction for Twilight to work as an identity for the city. A public face. A military that openly serves Twilight. A city that actively and openly moves to further the Great Work. You can think of it as the public face being a distraction to hide the real machinations of the Order if you like. That's fine. That would work. It would give the city a clear identity and ensure that your new players who join up already have their minds going in the right direction.

Asmodron

Antonius said:

Asmodron said:

Anyone that thinks Hashan doesnt have a factional identity, clearly isnt looking hard enough, or is extremely lazy....

I feel like a faction's identity shouldn't be something you have to "look hard" for, it should be really obvious and in your face, at least in the broadest sense. Mhaldor's factional identity is obviously "we serve Evil", even if you don't have any idea what "Evil" in Achaea actually means.

I'll agree somewhat to this. In truth Hashan's identity was suppose to be capitalized and enforced by the act of the renaissance. Unfortunately, from what I saw and was told at the time, the ideas became such a mess that it didnt work out as well as expected.


That all aside, Hashan's identity is stronger than it has been in years. Simply standing in the city for a time will just tell you that (the city-wide messages are pretty amazing).


Hashan does not govern itself on a faith. This is perhaps the biggest difference you will find with Hashan vs other cities, which is why the 'identity' can be so confusing to 'outsiders'. Unlike the other combatant cities (i'm just going to take Nature as a faith in this case), Hashan's citizens actually detest the idea of being governed by a faith and zealous mandates, which is something Twilight also wants. To follow a faith blindly is seen as stunting in knowledge and free will.


While Hashan adores Twilight who is basically their father, and whose realm represents their desire for personal growth and true understanding, they will never kneel to Him in servitude, which frankly would likely upset Him (openly anyway..).

If Hashan was to become faith-based, then it simply would no longer be Darkness aligned.

Mathilda

Asmodron said:

If Hashan was to become faith-based, then it simply would no longer be Darkness aligned.

That's one of the things that make Hashan extremely confusing, especially to someone new coming in. Twilight is the God of Darkness. Hashan is the Darkness faction. Twilight patrons Hashan. But Hashan is not faith-based on Twilight.

Sure, it can be kept as is. But factions should be both easy to understand and have deeper mythos. Chaos, Nature, Good, and Evil all have this. Darkness, however, doesn't quite seem to be there yet.

Vesios

Reminds me of one of the old Circle questions: "If Lady Gaia approached you and asked you to harm Nature in Her name, would you?"

The answer in this case was "no", because, at least in the Druids, we were taught that Nature was something separate than the Divine, and we were to love Nature above all else. 

Part of me has always thought Hashan wanted to go in that direction as well - love and protect the realm itself, not the Gods or Goddesses that represent and govern said realm. The issue here, though, is that Nature is a lot more concrete than Darkness. The former you can walk through, touch and experience, the latter is... uh... the lack of light?

I think that's the root of the problem. I can look at any of the other "realms" and know what they are and stand for at a glance. Darkness is a lot more formless and hard to understand - to me, as an outsider, it doesn't really represent anything. It's just a lack of light. To someone in Hashan, though, it probably means something more, and I think it'd be good to try and cement whatever association or ideal is there and present it to the outside world whenever you guys raid or defend or otherwise interact with those outside the city walls.

The Hashani, I'm assuming, know what Darkness is supposed to represent, so tell us so we know too! The more people associate Darkness with an ideal, at least on a surface level, the more it'll become common knowledge, which I think would help solidify the faction as a whole. 

Mathilda

Vesios said:

The Hashani, I'm assuming, know what Darkness is supposed to represent, so tell us so we know too! The more people associate Darkness with an ideal, at least on a surface level, the more it'll become common knowledge, which I think would help solidify the faction as a whole. 

We run into the problem that it's supposed to be meesterus and sekrit. 

Armali

It's mostly about acting smug.

Bade

This is what I was trying to say earlier but failed to explain. While OOC Yes we're serving darkness and twilight, IC we're not all knowingly doing this even though our city is allied with darkness. So we more try to draw people with the idea that we'll help you reach whatever your goals are if you bring the strength of that back to our city, very strong nationalism, when in reality we only want you for what we can get out of you.

I guess the best way to describe that ideal is service to a cause greater than us, but we don't know what this cause is, it's just 'better.'

Nazihk

Bade said:

This is what I was trying to say earlier but failed to explain. While OOC Yes we're serving darkness and twilight, IC we're not all knowingly doing this even though our city is allied with darkness. So we more try to draw people with the idea that we'll help you reach whatever your goals are if you bring the strength of that back to our city, very strong nationalism, when in reality we only want you for what we can get out of you.

I guess the best way to describe that ideal is service to a cause greater than us, but we don't know what this cause is, it's just 'better.'

This is why it is a terrible cause/identity.

Ahmet

Hey, so is Nihilism, but they've done pretty well, eh boys? #JokingNotJoking

Asmodron

From an ooc perspective I would love to explain darkness but you just wouldnt be able to bring it IC. If it will generally satisfy your needs then sure, though there are some much more hardcore informed dark lovers out there. @Kasa @Ginovianna

Nazihk

Ahmet said:

Hey, so is Nihilism, but they've done pretty well, eh boys? #JokingNotJoking

Nihilism works for me because you're basically a doomsday cult. Side with the most destructive faction in every event, just because you can. Raid and pillage and cause chaos and death. You're basically the Joker. This totally works for a factional identity.

Asmodron said:

From an ooc perspective I would love to explain darkness but you just wouldnt be able to bring it IC. If it will generally satisfy your needs then sure, though there are some much more hardcore informed dark lovers out there. @Kasa @Ginovianna

If you have to use a phrase like "I can explain it here but you can't know about it ICly" when you are discussing your basic factional identity, your identity sucks.

Asmodron

Perhaps the phrasing was wrong. I meant to say that explaining "why we are for darkness" would not work IC, because we would deny it, as well no one IC would really say it.


I am with you in that the identity is obscure and tricky, but when has darkness ever been but?


If you want darkness explained in the broadest of terms, it is this (took me some time to simplify this...): See beyond the mundane that is limit and restriction. Become great and squash the inferiority of ignorance and zealotry.


I recall a line a once famous darkwalker told me: if a demonic child is born, is it sin to slay the innocent or a blessing to remove a demon?


These thought concepts are common for darkness, that try to encourage mortals to see beyond tueir own limitations. You will rarely hear "taboo" in darkness, and this is why the Light has such odds with their workings.


Again though im not a darkwalker, you can poke Kasa or Tyamat's mind.

Mathilda

At the end of the day, a faction's basics of identity should be easy to pick up even by a newbie. You want to rope them in with something easy, then immerse them in the deeper shindig. The basics should be able to answer the following questions:

1) Why are we fighting X (insert faction here)?
2) What is our ultimate goal?

In Hashan's particular case, it can't be "because Science" or "because Secrets". Those are non-answers. "Purifying imperfections" is a nice one, but you have to then differentiate from the other factions (everyone's a hero to their own eyes).

Hashan/Darkness has answers to these, but it's all bundled up and hidden away somewhere deep, and that won't entice a lot of people to stay.

Blujixapug

For a factional identity to work, your enemies need to understand it too. Naturally you want to protect your secrets. But if all outsiders know it as is the vague facade you cultivate, "Darkness means seeing beyond limitations," nobody is going to declare war over that. And that's ultimately the point of factions: they're supposed to be defined by strong, clear, polarising identities. Evil hates Good and Good hates Evil. Everyone understands what Nature is about.

Chaos struggled with this, because for a long time it was shrouded in mystery. Chaos represents the primordial energy from which an ordered universe was separated out and shaped by the Creator at the dawn of time, great and terrible power that may be grasped but never truly controlled because it is corrosive to reality - power that is wielded all the same by irresponsible, arrogant occultists whose reach exceeds their grasp. But to outsiders, years ago, Chaos was just rainbows and nonsense, with a side of secret societies (and infanticide).

That doesn't mean Darkness is bad as it is, in terms of the purpose it currently serves. Nor was Chaos bad for the Occultists, way back before it became an idea that all of Ashtan needed to share. But if it's going to serve as an identity that unites and carries and city, and drives international relations with other cities, you need to cut the vagueness and show some of your cards.

That said, it's much easier to not worry about the faction thing IMO. If you aren't ever getting a faction class, why bother? Just keep doing what you're doing.

Mathilda

Daeir said:

You mean like a military currently (or previously) warring with the Eleusians over the Darkenwood? A city that actively researches the relatively unknown force holding it several hundred feet off the ground? A city home to a pedigree of alchemists that have worked to understand the nature of the ether and how it might be best used to twist and alter reality?

That shit's all fuckin' there, and has been there for months, maybe years now.

Not every ethos or creed needs to be in your face all the time.

It's like people complaining about there being a Sea god not realising that Neraeos' Order is home to some of the most fleshed out lore and teachings in the entire game, all because "lol god of ships and high tides hurrrr".

Again, why? Why is Hashan fighting for the Darkenwood, and its military restructured for Twilight, if it's not for Twilight? Why is Hashan researching this weird force? Why are we researching the ether? To what end?

There are answers to these questions, but the problem is that it's too hidden away for a casual/just-testing-the-waters player to pick up. It doesn't need to be in-your-face, but it does need to be easy to give a brief summary of to all kinds of players.

Nazihk

Daeir said:
You mean like a military currently (or previously) warring with the Eleusians over the Darkenwood? A city that actively researches the relatively unknown force holding it several hundred feet off the ground? A city home to a pedigree of alchemists that have worked to understand the nature of the ether and how it might be best used to twist and alter reality?

The Darkenwood Conflict doesn't really count because Eleusis started it. All it really proves is that Hashan will fight back when somebody takes a swing at it.

The other stuff, that doesn't matter for this kind of thing. "We're super sciencey!" isn't a workable faction identity. You're sciencey. So what? What are you going to do with that knowledge once you get it? What are your goals? Who is going to try and stop you from doing it? Why are they opposed to it?

A good factional identity will have answers for all of those questions, and those answers will be easily accessible to a newbie within the 30 minutes of character creation. 

Calira

Hashan just needs to use the Wellspring to nuke Cyrene a few dozen times. Then 'we're sciency' would actually be a reason for other factions to hate us.

Nazihk

Blujixapug said:

That said, it's much easier to not worry about the faction thing IMO. If you aren't ever getting a faction class, why bother? 

Because it's a good thing regardless. Because it helps get new players invested and involved in your city. Because it gives your city direction, helps keep all your citizens on the same page. Because it helps citizens get involved in your RP. Because it ensures that people can learn about the city's motivations and goals without having to join the Patron's Order first.

All of those are good things.