Factional Classes

Aodfionn

A hearty "fuck no" to all of the ideas put forth in this thread so far. 

We tried the 'total freedom' of priests in all the cities. 

We tried having forestals in cities. 

We tried letting everyone be the special snowflake. 

We tried allowing Team Blue and Team Red to regulate themselves.

None of these things worked. Most of these things failed miserably. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm pretty glad that we no longer have Hashani Priests, Eleusian Occultists and Targossian forestals.

Borran

I'm not suggesting that we allow everybody to be any factional class they want. I just wanted to get everyone's hypothetical opinion to see how the general populace feels about it. But at least we have your opinion.

Minifie

Ailea said:

I really dislike the wording on this topic. I would not be absolutely devastated however I would not be happy. As someone who has played Achaea for well over 10 years now I have seen a lot of bizarreness. There are pros and cons to having factional classes and everyone having access to it. Remember how everyone had access to Sentinel, Sylvan, Druid and overharvesting was a problem? Yeah I do. 

From a mechanics perspective with how the faction classes are today, I do not think this is that possible overall. Achaea has evolved over the years and becoming less alliance based and more "we stand on our own, with our own". 

It wouldn't make much sense for a Necromancer to be in Targossas as the skill necromancey was developed by Sartan and his gift basically for those that wish to follow Evil beginning with the Infernals. 

I think that the appeal of like an Evil druid or Good Sentinel etc. May be plausible, but still I think it comes down to really the development that not just the factional classes, but the cities and their adaption to the changes of classes over the years. 

I think that things are fine as they are, but I don't think that there needs to be any more factional classes introduced. 

Apostates were never allowed in shallam, and would never be in Targossas. Unlocking classes still requires limitations that no one would expect to change. Honestly I'm fine with the current situation, but I wonder how frequently there are city hoppers just to nab the new hotness classes. I think I would have enjoyed current mechanics with slightly looser restrictions on the classes, but I still prefer the idea of a "rogue" community available to those who wish to be any class with a minor in game aesthetical community. 

Borran

It is interesting that it appears those who have the factional classes would be devastated if everyone could be their class while those who do NOT have the factional classes don't seem to mind if they were opened to others.

Calira

Obviously having factional classes tied to their factions by RP is great. I would be far happier with re-skinned neutral versions of each factional class that were identical in terms of mechanics, but distinct in terms of RP

Cooper

I support unfactionalizing classes strictly because I want to be S&B Paladin and have all of the OP forestal classes.

Nazihk

I don't care about the RP much, I just like having a few factional classes to mix things up in fights and keep everything from being mirror matches.

Watchman

The grass is always greener (or burned) on the other side. Factionalized classes provide a degree of depth both to lore, and to player choices, and attempting to homogenize just to make some sections of the playerbase happy would have detrimental effects on lore and RP.

You have to think about Achaea in terms of D&D to a certain extent - some of the most enjoyable adventures and best stories come about through people consciously deciding to take their character in a direction that is true to their character, even if it results in negative consequences for them.

I think a story about an Infernal that falls in love and is excommunicated is inherently more interesting than a world where your decisions rarely matter and have little to no impact on the world around you, or on yourself.

Cailan

Factional classes are why I started playing this game so many years ago. That and the paladin guy that saved me from those goblins #neverforget

Asmodron

Aodfionn said:

A hearty "fuck no" to all of the ideas put forth in this thread so far. 

We tried the 'total freedom' of priests in all the cities. 

We tried having forestals in cities. 

We tried letting everyone be the special snowflake. 

We tried allowing Team Blue and Team Red to regulate themselves.

None of these things worked. Most of these things failed miserably. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm pretty glad that we no longer have Hashani Priests, Eleusian Occultists and Targossian forestals.

This isnt exactly true. If anything the orgs that were able to shut down on factional classes being misused did (occultists aside, but that is a long story). Excoms were being handed out quite freely for those that did actions against 'The Light', as well as the same for those that did actions against "Sartan/evil". It is when these classes became mechanically factionalized that the old excom mechanic was almost rarely used. The only time you need to Excom these days are for rogues.


The only constant complaints given at the time were by the Occultists (though in truth was near impossible to have an occultist fighting against chaos...) and forestrals (and even forestrals could be nature enemied if they assisted to try and harm nature).

I dont see where it all went to hell...

Sarathai

Asmodron said:

and forestrals (and even forestrals could be nature enemied if they assisted to try and harm nature).

Being forest enemied is functionally akin to excom/anathema for a forestal class, since in addition to the damage you get in forest/jungle areas, if you have Groves you cannot regain sunlight and if you have Woodlore you cannot summon creatures.

It doesn't generally get used for that purpose (at least not nowadays), but it did still do it, last time I checked. Eleusis/High Warden hasn't done what Mhaldor and Targossas have in terms of "all forestals come here or lose your skills" though.

Tydas

Forestal classes don't need a "come home" thing, really. It was basically sort of done during the whole alchemist reveal, and there are a bare handful of people of forestal class left in cities. Only issue would be rogues, but it still isn't quite factional like Devotion and Necromancy, and now Occultism, is.

Asmodron

Exactly. The idea of forestrals were players that choose to manipulate the energy in nature. It was more based on a pool of power that has always been there and in a way always been at our fingertips. It was more basic in nature (in a good way), which is why I liked the idea behind it. Linking it to Eleusis just felt wrong, especially because Eleusis is not the central power of nature, they are just a group of individuals that choose to live by and inhabit nature, and are not even loved by all others that do so (see Sparrow's Rest).

Calyn

I want more people to play Occultist so that they can enjoy the feeling of being punched in the gut by classleads on a regular basis.

Puxi

You do realize that is because they are trying to balance the class, right?

Calyn

It's mostly tongue in cheek.

Rangor

I like factional classes for the lore and RP. For combat balancing I like that Makarios is making the unique "functions" that have been limited to a few cities only, now is available to everyone in new classes. See depthswalker beckon.

Kenway

Sentinel / Infernal is the dream

Liyane

Asmodron said:

Exactly. The idea of forestrals were players that choose to manipulate the energy in nature. It was more based on a pool of power that has always been there and in a way always been at our fingertips. It was more basic in nature (in a good way), which is why I liked the idea behind it. Linking it to Eleusis just felt wrong, especially because Eleusis is not the central power of nature, they are just a group of individuals that choose to live by and inhabit nature, and are not even loved by all others that do so (see Sparrow's Rest).

I remember when druids (the guild) thought Eleusis was too urban and banned it's members from joining.

Marisella

Asmodron said:

Exactly. The idea of forestrals were players that choose to manipulate the energy in nature. It was more based on a pool of power that has always been there and in a way always been at our fingertips. It was more basic in nature (in a good way), which is why I liked the idea behind it. Linking it to Eleusis just felt wrong, especially because Eleusis is not the central power of nature, they are just a group of individuals that choose to live by and inhabit nature, and are not even loved by all others that do so (see Sparrow's Rest).

I think that linking forestals to Eleusis (when the Alchemist class was released) helped to stabilise the concept of what they are supposed to be in the eyes of current Eleusis, individuals who respect the tools that nature armed them with, who are to fight for her. It feels wrong that forestals were previously able to live freely in the comfort of a city, which sort of goes against the whole concept of fighting for nature. Esos in the Northreach forest has a good story about forestalls who get too comfortable in cities.

To my understanding, Sparrow's Rest is a community formed of elder druids who believe the way that Eleusis was leading itself was too weak, or rather, they were too friendly and accepting of those who would still maintain ties to people who manipulate nature for their own benefit.

Quisse

I used to care WAY more about the whole factional class, purity etc etc, but the longer I play, the less important this seems to me, particularly when it comes to people who want to play rogues.

I feel like, also, that Achaea seems to be moving away from the hard-line factional mechanics that infringe on people's freedom to play how they like. Certainly from ten years ago to now, things are much kinder and gentler in general. I'm sure many remember the days of guilds, pre-autoclass, when the power to keep your class was contingent on reaching GR3. 

That said...this is all hypothetical and entirely unlikely, so it doesn't matter much. I don't mind making a new character so I can play factional classes, but I'd definitely not complain if this wasn't necessary. 

Mindshell

While I understand the sentiment behind converting certain classes to faction based tools amidst the renaissance each city went through, I disagree with the implementation as well as citing the negative impact it's taken on these classes populations.

I was raised on the mentality that in gaining a class, you learned the inherent roleplay surrounding it. Once you had that understanding you could take your roleplay with you irrespective of city since you'd gained sufficient understanding of the history behind that class. Now it's shifted into a city based fanaticism which has sapped some of the colour out of the experience.

Skye

@Mindshell

Isn't that an idea carried over from the guild days when we had to work to gain class? As opposed to going over to Certimene and then POOF you're a wizard, Harry now a priest.

Mindshell

Sure, you could say it was in the guild days, but even long past guilds class tone was being set by the cities they were linked to without the need for you're one of us or you can't play the class restrictions.

Borran

I kinda feel that way too. With the Guild system, it was a trade secret that you were being handed down. And you were expected to fulfill your part of the bargain and uphold your end of the deal. But with everyone being able to get their class from Certimene, there isn't that bond of trust. Instead, you bring your skills to an organisation and they say "Yeah, but you need to attend church every Sunday or else we'll take your skills away." (I know I'm exaggerating but I'm trying to express my feeling toward factional classes)

Anedhel

Borran said:

I kinda feel that way too. With the Guild system, it was a trade secret that you were being handed down. And you were expected to fulfill your part of the bargain and uphold your end of the deal. But with everyone being able to get their class from Certimene, there isn't that bond of trust. Instead, you bring your skills to an organisation and they say "Yeah, but you need to attend church every Sunday or else we'll take your skills away." (I know I'm exaggerating but I'm trying to express my feeling toward factional classes)

I guess I've just never actually seen that. There's a certain (although it's way, way, way milder thing now) aspect of 'don't try and screw us or we'll take your class away,' (and even in this case, excommunication/anathema/etc. is so rare that I doubt it'd fill up a big list of names) but I've never actually seen anyone enforce a 'do this or else you're out' line of manipulation. Even in the really hardcore Cities, I haven't heard of people being forced to do things they don't want to do under threat of having their class removed in the last couple RL years (I suspect the admins would dish out hell on a democratic basis if this went down, given how much of a slog it was to do the whole no-Devo-in-Cyrene thing). 

Regi

I just think it should be an everyone or no-one bit. Don't like that all 4 other fighting cities (no offense Cyrene) have a flavour of faction restricted classes and Hashan doesn't (though Occie is still a light touch). I would trade away the mechanical ability of Hashan to accept devo and necro classes (since nobody wants to invest lessons in something another player is very very likely to strip) for something that we could have similar sway over.

Asmodron

Hashan gets short end of the stick here

Factional classes will exist

We wont introduce any more though

"Sir may I have some more?"
"No..."

Nazihk

We've been over this before in other threads. Even if they were willing to create another factional class, Hashan doesn't have a strong enough factional identity to justify making one for it. 

Mathilda

It's not that Hashan doesn't have a strong factional identity -- it does. The problem is that it's hidden away due to historical reasons. Everyone sees Hashan as this weird city that fights for nebulous reasons, which makes it hard because a big part of factional conflict (not just combat) is defined by why your enemies are against you.

Everyone knows what Good/Nature/Chaos/Evil is, everyone can say why they're against it, and everyone can say why their own faction is The Best Above The Rest. This cannot be said of Darkness, not because there's nothing there, but because what is there is unknown.

Something something if a tree falls in a forest but no one knows, does it exist.