Auto-following target calls is bad, somehow, I guess

Ryzeth

Someone is triggered. Love the immediate excuses though. Classic Re--Aegoth.

Aegoth

You're getting hung up on one win, bro, that happened a lifetime ago. How about you show that bard fight where you flailed around, helpless? Consistency. You don't got it.

Reisen

Okay, I just got through Vender's post.

Yeah, Aet has specific cure orders, but Imperian is randomized like Achaea, so I've got plenty of experience there too. But in Achaea there's nice things like being able to block class cures with affs, Alchemist being able to block random cures entirely (and having perfect knowledge of tempers with evaluate), and, with the Expert Diagnoser trait, you can discern with decent accuracy what affs a person has or doesn't have. So I'm not bothered by that.

Ryzeth

"Holocaust king" not much of a king

Far too easy to set off 

Finkle

Fight fight fight!!!

Aegoth

Yea, tell that to my 4200 kill count

Ryzeth

Like I said mate, too easy. Good night, friend. Bed > Holocaust fairy

When I'm done with legion we can spar some more sure. All jokes aside you are fun when I don't derp. I did avoid multiple pummel kills from you before I spazed. 

Reisen

@Ryzeth @Aegoth

Aegoth

Bye Felicia

Makarios

This'll most likely be my only post on this topic, as I believe most of my views on the subject are known by most of you already. Do note: these are entirely my opinions and (unless otherwise stated) are not at all admin policy.

At the macro level, I prefer that combat be manual. I personally feel that it promotes a much better environment (both in terms of accessibility and in terms of fun).

I'm quite happy to say that I strongly believe the first aff tracker appearing in Achaea was one of the worst things that has ever happened to the pk scene, because it drew a very definite line in the sand, so to speak. I will never design abilities or make changes that promote the use of a tracker over manualling intentionally, because I firmly believe we are the most accessible of the ire games when it comes to being top tier with an entirely manual offense, and have been for years. I personally find manualling more indicative of a person's individual skill, and as I believe was mentioned already, I find those fights to be much more notable. That said, I feel no need to defend said claim; if you disagree, that's cool.

However, I'm pretty moderate as a general rule about the whole thing. If some people want to auto offense, I don't mind that. If said person can reach a level where a manual person can't reasonably compete, then that's just a flaw in the mechanics that would need correcting post haste--we've done this in the past specifically to equalise things like this. Generally, I have faith enough that if a manual fighter puts in the work, they'll be fighting at the same level as someone who is running an auto offense. I have not yet seen anything to disprove that belief in Achaea, and for as long as that remains the case, I don't mind how people choose to play the game.

Reisen

Honestly, there's never going to be a situation where someone manually typing in every command is going to be better than someone who uses triggers, scripts and keybinds to input them. You could be Usain Bolt and still be outrun by the dude who rides around on a bicycle.  I don't think the answer here is to shove a stick in the biker's spokes, or to make fun of the biker because he's not using his legs to propel himself. The answer is to teach Mr. Bolt how to build his own bike so he can use his already formidable leg muscles to bike faster than everyone else.

Aegoth

Reisen said:

Honestly, there's never going to be a situation where someone manually typing in every command is going to be better than someone who uses triggers, scripts and keybinds to input them. You could be Usain Bolt and still be outrun by the dude who rides around on a bicycle.  I don't think the answer here is to shove a stick in the biker's spokes, or to make fun of the biker because he's not using his legs to propel himself. The answer is to teach Mr. Bolt how to build his own bike so he can use his already formidable leg muscles to bike faster than everyone else.

Wish Xer was still playing. He'd disprove this in a heartbeat

Reisen

I should specify people roughly matching in skill. Of course a pro manualing is going to beat a noob that doesn't know how to use his system. But if you take someone good at PK who manuals, and make them fight someone good at PK who uses a system, who's going to win?

Mishgul

no he wouldn't.

Aegoth

Yes he would

Keneanung

Reisen said:

Honestly, there's never going to be a situation where someone manually typing in every command is going to be better than someone who uses triggers, scripts and keybinds to input them. You could be Usain Bolt and still be outrun by the dude who rides around on a bicycle.  I don't think the answer here is to shove a stick in the biker's spokes, or to make fun of the biker because he's not using his legs to propel himself. The answer is to teach Mr. Bolt how to build his own bike so he can use his already formidable leg muscles to bike faster than everyone else.

I'm in the coder's corner as well. I'm partly playing Achaea for coding and proving my skill (to myself), but I still have to say your attitude is rubbing me the wrong way. Preaching the greatness of Codebots to come won't get you very far here, people will stick to the gameplay they like.

Second, your analogies don't really fit most of the time. They need quite a bit of bending...

Third, I don't think anybody here is saying you need to type all of your commands all of the time. Most people are manualling by using aliases, small scripts and macros. What most people mean with "manualling" is the decision making.

Tahquil

Yes, but Usain will get a gold medal in the sprint and the guy on the bike will get "WTF is wrong with you? This is a 100m running sprint."

If we want to be making anaolgies it's like driving a car. The manualler will be able to react to issues and plan new routes while the automatic system will just keep following the program through the roadworks/group of school children/broken bridge.

Korben

I am not here to play Coder Wars, or Have-Coder-Friends Wars. I could play that game if I wanted to but I don't.

Reisen

Tahquil said:

and the guy on the bike will get "WTF is wrong with you? This is a 100m running sprint."

Then why let people bring bikes at all?

Cynlael

Reisen said:

I should specify people roughly matching in skill. Of course a pro manualing is going to beat a noob that doesn't know how to use his system. But if you take someone good at PK who manuals, and make them fight someone good at PK who uses a system, who's going to win?

Depends. Is that pro Mizik? If so, he will win.

Dunn

Non rusty Jarrel vs fucking any auto. 

Cynlael

Dunn said:

Non rusty Jarrel vs fucking any auto. 

Doesn't matter if you're rusty when you got 22str and lv3 wep as 2h runie. Kappa.
[spoiler]Yes I'm aware it's not his 'good' class. Just what he was lol'ing people with most recently.[/spoiler]

Antonius

Reisen said:

I should specify people roughly matching in skill. Of course a pro manualing is going to beat a noob that doesn't know how to use his system. But if you take someone good at PK who manuals, and make them fight someone good at PK who uses a system, who's going to win?

Well, you seem to think the answer is obviously and always going to be "the person using a system", but that's not the case. At lower skill levels, the person using a script is probably going to win, because they're using the system to make up for lacking the ability to keep track of what's going on, make decisions quickly, and control their offense for themselves.

The higher you progress through the skill levels the less of an advantage the system becomes in that regard, because people capable of fighting at a high level can keep track of what's going on, make decisions quickly, and control their offense for themselves (that's what makes them high tier combatants). At that point your system has an advantage in making split second decisions, and the manual combatant has an advantage in analysing their opponent and adapting on the fly, merging completely different strategies together, etc.

At that point, who wins comes down to the same things it comes down to when talking about manual vs manual or system vs system: class matchups, defense, who gets to their kill execution fastest (an extension of class matchups), etc.

Reisen

Everyone seems to have this weird mindset that people who use systems are somehow 'lacking in ability' or 'not as good' as people who manual. You do realize it's possible to have good reflexes AND an automated offense at the same time, right? Being good at strategy and analysis and having a great scripted offense are not mutually exclusive. This is usually how people who code their own systems are. They have the skill to begin with; they're just augmenting it by using code to improve their reaction times and attack speed far faster than any human being can manage alone.

Farrah

@Reisen The way you have been acting around here is not going to make you any friends. I'd advise against starting debates about whether it's better to auto, manual, or whatever, and instead just do things how you want and let others do them how they want.

Nobody really cares what you claim to have accomplished in some other game and nobody will think you're better because you can flaunt your ability to code (without any actual wins). 

Reisen

Farrah said:

Nobody really cares what you claim to have accomplished in some other game and nobody will think you're better because you can flaunt your ability to code (without any actual wins). 

Yeah, like you know how many wins I have or don't have.

Antonius

My experience tells me that low skill combatants who choose to use automated offenses generally do so because they can't keep up with what's going on and make decisions in the available time (Achaean combat is, as most classes, fast paced), which is why I mentioned that when comparing manual vs system at low skill levels.

If you can do that, then you're not low skill; but if you're also fighting somebody else who can do that and they're manual, I'm honestly confused what advantage it is you think you have over them because of your automated offense.

Cooper

You couldn't even kill me in a class I spent 20 minutes writing aliases and macros for an offense, and I'm an absolute terrible fighter. You have a very, very long way to go before you can take on Farrah.

Reisen

Antonius said:

My experience tells me that low skill combatants who choose to use automated offenses generally do so because they can't keep up with what's going on and make decisions in the available time (Achaean combat is, as most classes, fast paced), which is why I mentioned that when comparing manual vs system at low skill levels.

If you can do that, then you're not low skill; but if you're also fighting somebody else who can do that and they're manual, I'm honestly confused what advantage it is you think you have over them because of your automated offense.

Automated offense is infinitely faster than manual offense. It's all about the reaction time. Why spend a quarter of a second typing something out when you can press a key and have it happen instantaneously?

Cynlael

Shades of Ernam all over again. The cringe levels these posts are reaching are getting astronomical.