How Exactly does Theft Work?

Stuneree

Been considering switching to serpent to add a bit of fun to being afk all the time.

I actually do want to have some fun trying to steal from people and maybe get a few fights going (absolutely no novices). The reason I want some advice is specifically because I won't steal from new players.

So is it basically just mesmerize, generosity, pickpocket? It seems like anyone with a decent antitheft system is impossible to steal from given how basic theft seems.

Any advice?? 

Kresslack

It's nothing like it used to be where you could potentially target items or even effectively strip someone. It's more about the timing and hitting your pickpocket in the small amount of time before they reapply selfishness. Basically force generosity (something that used to be forbidden with the old theft system) and have your action go immediately after, before they can reapply selfishness.

Typically you won't get much, maybe a sigil, maybe a small portion of gold if they have any. How much gold you get scales with how much they have on hand. So unless they're just not paying attention you're not likely to get much. However, you can pickpocket denizens which can potentially yield a decent amount of gold.

Stuneree

So I just use Hide > mesmerize > generosity > and try to hit pickpocket quickly before selfishness is back up, and that's it? 
Don't I need to somehow get them to take gold out of their pack? Do I have to use the action ability at some point in there?

Kresslack

That's pretty much it. You can action to get them to remove gold from a container, but you're only going to get a small percentage of what they're holding.

Stuneree

Perfect, thanks for the info! Will keep considering serp in that case. Seems like it could be insanely fun.

Actually I should also ask, for all of this functionality I only need dual-trans? Is venom mandatory for combat?

Kresslack

Venom is really convenient to have. If you're wanting to go for combat you'll need tri-trans. You can get away with not having Hypnosis, but for 1v1 fights it will be much easier and much more flexibility to be tri-trans. There's still a lot of theft opportunities afforded with the pure stealth aspect of Serpent, especially if you're willing to invest in a gem. Shops make great targets, just take more patience to get into typically.

Stuneree

Wait I can steal from shops? And which gem??

Atalkez

By virtue of getting into the stockrooms with people who are too lax on defense.

Gem of Hiding or whatever it's called. The one that removes you from QW etc.

Edit: Also could be the Gem that let's you reincarnate. You can bypass doors as a soul if there is no eye sigil stopping you.

Sobriquet

You can steal from shops without a gem. I made a few million on my Naga with nothing more than a prism tattoo and some patience.

Stuneree

So do you just wait for the proprietor and follow them in stealth or something? Most don't check for phased serpents first?? 

Valkyn

Most do check for phased serpents. The odd one may be lazy, inexperienced or something and not.

Stuneree

Hm, that does sound like fun.
I love the utility of my Jester, but stealth seems like it could really open up a lot of fun.

Illyose

As someone who has had a shop robbed, it is devastating. I recommend being REALLY mindful of who you target. The easiest shops to rob will be those of new shop keepers, who may have just invested everything they have into that first stocking. I speak from experience.

Greys

The main issue with theft is there is no recourse for those robbed. Whats stolen is gone and usually there is often no meaningful interactions. Granted, its not as bad as it used to be. Had a friend come back to the game after his deployment IRL, had his journal stolen the first day he got back and the thief wanted 100 credits for it. That friend no longer plays.

Kresslack

Greys said:

The main issue with theft is there is no recourse for those robbed. Whats stolen is gone and usually there is often no meaningful interactions. Granted, its not as bad as it used to be. Had a friend come back to the game after his deployment IRL, had his journal stolen the first day he got back and the thief wanted 100 credits for it. That friend no longer plays.

At least in the days of the Naga, if we stole a journal or a letter we'd typically try to ransom it back for a reasonable *gold* fee. I remember someone had nicked one of Silas' (or some Shallamese high official) love letter or some such, and offered it back for a gold ransom and not to release it. Those were meaningful and RP'd interactions. Wanting 100 credits for a journal.....that's just sad.

Greys

Aye, I realized that my post sounded like I was trying to discourage. I wanted to more point out that he should make it a meaningful interaction for both sides if he is going to engage in it.

Silvarien

Greys said:

The main issue with theft is there is no recourse for those robbed. Whats stolen is gone and usually there is often no meaningful interactions. Granted, its not as bad as it used to be. Had a friend come back to the game after his deployment IRL, had his journal stolen the first day he got back and the thief wanted 100 credits for it. That friend no longer plays.

This is precisely why theft was severely nerfed. Old-school theft was kept for a very long time because of people saying it added "realism," but in a game where there is so much real money invested even in stuff like non-decay keepsakes, it just ruined it for people. @Tecton did a lot of research, I think (my memory is fuzzy, it's been a long time) about 11% of people robbed never played again, and about 1/2 of those who stayed drastically reduced their playing time, permanently.

Realism is a shoddy excuse for somebody that just got 50 dollars ripped off, and the item also had sentimental value. A lot of thieves, if they couldn't get a price they liked from the target, simply sold the stolen goods on Market or in a shop of their own.

Asmodron

Just note that with theft comes a bad reputation. A lot of people will simply dislike you or refuse to interact with you on the basis that you are a thief. This is usually increased based upon how effective you have been and thus how many spirits you have crushed with big time swipes.

You might get the respect of some, but you'll mostly get the loathing of others. If you are okay with this, then try it out.

Austere

Theft, outside shop theft, is doubtfully worth the effort now.  While I do enjoy someone taking up the mantle of "bad guy",  I think as a whole theft is probably the quickest way to ruin a character. Unless you are -very- good(and I don't mean walking away with a ton of gold), you won't ever measure up to bar set by people like Tenebrus. 

At best, people will despise you.  At worst, you're either going to learn to be a hell of a pker, get hunted back to minia, or spend a lot of time hiding out in a city.  It's just not worth it financially now. 

Stuneree

Ah in that case I probably won't go ham on it. Mainly just RP value. The utility of serpent has still been fun anyway.

Krypton

Have there even been any "new" thieves since theft changes?

I feel like the only people who still routinely thief are those who predate the changes and are wholly fulfilled merely by the thrill, and not lucrativeness, of theft.

Ahmet

Krypton said:

Have there even been any "new" thieves since theft changes?

I feel like the only people who still routinely thieve are those who predate the changes and are wholly fulfilled merely by the thrill, and not lucrativeness, of theft.

Jinsun. Dajio maybe.

Kafziel

I've done a fair bit of thieving post-change. I didn't really do serp thieving with old theft, but I did enjoy the glory days of chained soulmaster/hierophant to bypass rewear triggers. Theft is a lot simpler than it used to be, it basically boils down to (assuming proper redeffing selfishness and rewears):

If they don't have selfishness up:
- can steal from inventory without using hypno
- can steal from worn using hypno

If they have selfishness up:
- can steal from inventory using hypno

If they have selfishness and shimmering orb, more effort than it's worth guessing at what they have in inventory.

I don't use the regular pickpocket at all since I don't really want 300 gold, 1 letter and 3 fist sigils. I only use targetted pickpocket, which has a pretty low success rate (RNG fun mechanic) but is really the only way to get good stuff (House items, containers, cool sneakers) from people these days.

You basically hypno them to do <action> with a delay of 5, snap;pickpocket person sneakers. If you use in-game command separator, your pickpocket hits on the same prompt just after the action triggers, so selfishness is guaranteed to be down OR item is guaranteed to be removed (shame you can't have both), even with triggers. Since commands after the first are randomised, the first action is the only one you can control with precision.

You can start pickpocket on a selfish person, the selfishness check is when the pickpocket completes. I think it's the same thing for targetted pickpocket and worn items. This might need fact checking because I don't really remember (it's been a while).

Stealing from a shop is basically impossible these days barring gross negligence on the shopkeeper's part. You used to be able to put one serpent in the shop spamming evade down, and have a second person prism to them when they're in the stockroom. There was a decent change one of the spammed evades would hit between when the shopkeeper opens the door and exits the stockroom. With in-game command separator that's basically not possible anymore because they unlock/open/leave in one prompt/action, so the shopkeeper has to either not have an eye/monolith down (in a nondecay room I'm not sure how people manage this) or sit long enough for a prism to go through. If they have no eye, you can go in as a soul and rezz with gem of transmutation, if they don't have monolith you can portal in.

Kresslack

Old theft wouldn't really have been that bad if they'd have developed a sigil that prevents taking/picking up an item by anyone other than the owner once attached. That way people could still safeguard their most precious items (so long as they maintained the sigil), but would still allow for actual theft opportunities. The new system, unless they're afk, you're lucky to get a couple thousand gold or a sigil off of them, and pretty much have to force generosity each time. Overall, it's not really worth it to go after individuals, but more to go after shops and perhaps House estates for certain items. That'll probably change in the future as well.

Ahmet

Kafziel said:

I've done a fair bit of thieving post-change. I didn't really do serp thieving with old theft, but I did enjoy the glory days of chained soulmaster/hierophant to bypass rewear triggers. Theft is a lot simpler than it used to be, it basically boils down to (assuming proper redeffing selfishness and rewears):

If they don't have selfishness up:
- can steal from inventory without using hypno
- can steal from worn using hypno

If they have selfishness up:
- can steal from inventory using hypno

If they have selfishness and shimmering orb, more effort than it's worth guessing at what they have in inventory.

I don't use the regular pickpocket at all since I don't really want 300 gold, 1 letter and 3 fist sigils. I only use targetted pickpocket, which has a pretty low success rate (RNG fun mechanic) but is really the only way to get good stuff (House items, containers, cool sneakers) from people these days.

You basically hypno them to do <action> with a delay of 5, snap;pickpocket person sneakers. If you use in-game command separator, your pickpocket hits on the same prompt just after the action triggers, so selfishness is guaranteed to be down OR item is guaranteed to be removed (shame you can't have both), even with triggers. Since commands after the first are randomised, the first action is the only one you can control with precision.

You can start pickpocket on a selfish person, the selfishness check is when the pickpocket completes. I think it's the same thing for targetted pickpocket and worn items. This might need fact checking because I don't really remember (it's been a while).

Stealing from a shop is basically impossible these days barring gross negligence on the shopkeeper's part. You used to be able to put one serpent in the shop spamming evade down, and have a second person prism to them when they're in the stockroom. There was a decent change one of the spammed evades would hit between when the shopkeeper opens the door and exits the stockroom. With in-game command separator that's basically not possible anymore because they unlock/open/leave in one prompt/action, so the shopkeeper has to either not have an eye/monolith down (in a nondecay room I'm not sure how people manage this) or sit long enough for a prism to go through. If they have no eye, you can go in as a soul and rezz with gem of transmutation, if they don't have monolith you can portal in.

Monos/eyes not for sale in stockrooms decay (or so I'm told) except for in a particular instance, so that's the regular times you'd wait anywhere else. You can also wall them in, so they open the door, but when they try to move up they don't actually do it, so their relock down commands don't work either.

ETA: And you'd be surprised how often people forget to lock their stockrooms.

Kafziel

Ahmet said:

Monos/eyes not for sale in stockrooms decay (or so I'm told) except for in a particular instance, so that's the regular times you'd wait anywhere else. You can also wall them in, so they open the door, but when they try to move up they don't actually do it, so their relock down commands don't work either.

ETA: And you'd be surprised how often people forget to lock their stockrooms.

I haven't been a shopkeeper for a while but can't you just price an eye/mono and put it in a bin nobody can buy from?

Also, wall still requires incompetence on the shopkeeper's part. Shopkeeper can just gmcp grab all or have close/lock door u in their alias with no downside

Austere

Pretty sure wall counts as hinder now and is against the "rules"

Ahmet

Kafziel said:

Ahmet said:

Monos/eyes not for sale in stockrooms decay (or so I'm told) except for in a particular instance, so that's the regular times you'd wait anywhere else. You can also wall them in, so they open the door, but when they try to move up they don't actually do it, so their relock down commands don't work either.

ETA: And you'd be surprised how often people forget to lock their stockrooms.

I haven't been a shopkeeper for a while but can't you just price an eye/mono and put it in a bin nobody can buy from?

Also, wall still requires incompetence on the shopkeeper's part. Shopkeeper can just gmcp grab all or have close/lock door u in their alias with no downside

Can? Yes. Do most? No.

Austere said:

Pretty sure wall counts as hinder now and is against the "rules"

And is it now? That's kinda disappointing.

Anedhel

From HELP THEFT: 

1. Run away. Remember, the thief isn't allowed to restrain you.

Melodie

Hindering the person you were thieving was never allowed as long as I've been playing Achaea.

Anedhel

You could use walls, as long as you left one exit unhindered, iirc.