Classleads

Avto

I am still quite out of the loop of achaean combat, but as an alternative for devotion damnation (currently damaged head+hellsight) to give X number of afflictions + Damaged head (leaning on 5). How OP would it be?

Edit: to clarify, alternative prep for damnation execution Damaged head+5 afflictions.

Zeon

5 what kind of afflictions? if breaks count, would be pretty easy. 5 mind-affs (like tzantza affs) would be really hard.

Avto

Not breaks, all venom based afflictions other then Epseth/epteth. And ofc mind/deaf

Zeon

Would probably be either really easy or really difficult depending on your rapiers. 

Regardless I don't like the idea because I don't think it fits in very well with the knight class. Knights use afflictions but they aren't an 'affliction class' in the traditional sense. I don't mind seeing a few choice afflictions involved in their instantkill, but something this vague/broad just doesn't sit well with me.

Avto

Further looking into it affliction stacking is easier for Paladin, over other knights. The biggest problem of affliction stacking is not many weapon deliverable affliction that is not focusable. Paladins excell at mana draining abilities (Demons if evenly ticked cancel out moss/potash, focus, clot, active mana draining abilities on target drop it down, while Paladins good dps doesn't let opponent to sip mana).

This could give paladins a finisher which meshes well with it's third skill and is momentum based requiring a prep of minimum 2 limbs.

Drawback would be high mana pool classes (dragons, high level artied folks)  or passive mana regeneration would still be near immune to this tactic. And would even more imbalance 1v1 on some other classes (Magi, Monk, Apostate).

Still just brainstorming here.

Tanris

@Xith:
The difference between juggled tarot and devilmark would be vast. The reason for this is the ability to stagger the tarots, instead of them coming together. For instance, Hang/lust devil. Reject, start writhe. Staggered tarots, lust, fling hang, fling lust. Far superior hinder. (Not particularly a reason to say no in this example, but illustrates why staggered> doubled random). Nearly any jester that fights outside the arena has at least one "illegal" totem. Like it or not, they are something you are going to need to account for when balancing the class.

Mishgul

What even is an illegal totem. An underage totem

Zeon

All my totem use has been purely for medicinal purposes. 

Xith

Xith said:

In essence, this would be the same as a Devil'd fling (3 seconds) + an additional fling (3 seconds) = (6)
Juggle fling (2) x 3 = (6). In the 6 second span, the only thing that changes is we specify the middle card. Fair?

On the other hand,
Occultist w/ Devilmark
3- 2 cards
6 - 2 cards
9 - 2 cards
Total in 9 seconds: 6 cards (1.5s per card)

Jester w/ Devil
3 - 2 cards
6 - 1 card
9 - 1 card
Total in 9 seconds: 4 cards (2.25s per card)

Jester w/ juggled tarot + devil
2 - 2 cards
4 - 1 card
6 - 1 card (stop here is 4 in 6 seconds, 1.5s per like devilmark)
7,8,9 - juggle, juggle, juggle -OR- normal fling 1 card
Total in 9 seconds: 4 cards -OR- 5 cards (1.8s per card)

You might also imagine 3 juggled devils.
Pre-devil + pre juggle
3 - 2 cards
5 - devil
8 - 2 cards
10 - devil
13- 2 cards
15 - devil
18 - 2 cards
Total in 18s: 8 cards (2.25s per card just like normal old jester)

The overall balance is the same in most situations. The real change is that things can be done in slightly shorter bursts.
My current aeon stick:
Mickey + juggle 3 daggers
aeon (strip speed)
throw curare, throw kalmia
aeon (stuck)
throw kalmia when person eats kelp

Works on most non-fitness people, but sometimes their speed comes up before my second Aeon, and that's without me being hindered at all.
With juggled tarot:
mickey + juggle aeon, juggle 2 daggers
guaranteed to get past speed (the way occies can with their ent)

The Lust+Hang seems like a stronger argument against, but what it really accomplishes is compressing those flings into a shorter space, buying time for a couple of fashions. Instead of hangedman and the person writhes out in the middle of my fashion balance.

As for the help of totems/other people, target would be just as screwed by that as they are now without juggled cards. Jumping is jumping, ganking is ganking.

Tanris

Arguing that you can gank already so something is fine is a poor argument. Enf/absolve was nerfed because it made the process stupidly easy, for instance. (Obviously this would not be on that level, but you get where I'm coming from).

My concerns are more for teams. Tarot is already one of the most amazing group skills around: allowing you to tripple fling three cards of your choice in that kind of timeframe, well. I'll leave the people who are regularly on the end of standard occultist tarot in melee to elaborate.

Synbios

Mishgul said:

What even is an illegal totem. An underage totem

It claimed to be 250 months old, I swear, occifer.

Xith

Tanris said:

Arguing that you can gank already so something is fine is a poor argument. Enf/absolve was nerfed because it made the process stupidly easy, for instance. (Obviously this would not be on that level, but you get where I'm coming from).

My concerns are more for teams. Tarot is already one of the most amazing group skills around: allowing you to tripple fling three cards of your choice in that kind of timeframe, well. I'll leave the people who are regularly on the end of standard occultist tarot in melee to elaborate.

That's part of the problem though. You guys can fling 3 melee devils. For us it would go from 2 tarots in 6 seconds to 3 tarots in 6 seconds (assuming pre-juggle, which is an endurance drain throughout anyway). I'm assuming devilmark costs karma. Juggling costs us endurance (and if we also have acrobatics up, it actually disappears pretty fast).
I understand that specifying it creates a slight problem.
But the pool of bonus flings (lovers, hang, justice, aeon, lust, moon) all have benefits in group combat (except lovers), so if you stick with flinging aeon or moon or even hang, you wreak plenty of havoc in that 9 seconds.

And as I pointed out, the same timespan juggled lets us get potentially 1 devil'd fling to start, plus 3 more selected flings. (4+1) While yours is (3+3). Two more bonus cards but one less selected card. Now if occies could juggle tarot I'd see your concern. Faster aeons + moons means faster enlighten.
I know it feels unbalanced at first, but all it does is bring our Tarot up very slightly. Gives extra options if juggled in advance.

Zeon

devilmark doesn't cost karma, that would suck so much. probably wouldn't even be worth it in most cases considering how often it gets put up in a fight.

also randomness is rarely a good thing and sometimes worse than having nothing at all in achaean combat (especially with modern systems, where people don't get shut down just from having too many afflictions).

regardless of speed the randomness of devil makes it way less reliable than this change you're proposing.

Kaie

I originally proposed this idea once before. I changed my mind on it later. It's too hard to balance out. It sounds like Lust is a point of concern though. Simply removing Lust from being able to be thrown like that would fix this issue I suppose but, being realistic we don't need to double fling lust to get you. I've always stuck it in blackout before summoning into a killroom. The reason I tossed the idea aside is exactly what Tanris and Vaehl are saying. In groups it's too much. 1vs1 it's wickedly interesting but, you KNOW it'll be abused in groups. I still feel Jester Tarot needs a buff though. Aeon is hard as Jester because of curing systems and Jester lacks ents to help with that. Being randomly hit with asthma and having speed slowed down helps. That aside it's a shared skillset and should be entirely possible for a jester to accomplish aeon sticking.  On the topic of damage, I don't believe Jester should be a damage class. 

Kaie

maybe i'm retarded.. I still fail to see the point of sticky bombs. You plant 1 lonely bomb on an opponent at a higher balance cost with the aid of "sticky" crap. Where's the benefit from this? Like, Xith man.. you've been hell bent on this idea for a looooong time but, I stick bombs on people when I want to and 1 bomb is typically pointless due to the randomness of timers. Sure, I can sit here and time my aeon to hit as concussion hits but, this is assuming i'm not paralyzed, aeoned, asleep, proned or broken limbs.  This is why I still fashion whore. Jester needs a jump buff. The randomness of half of it is easily avoidable dsl curare/kalmia on repeat.. hi, I'm kaie's soul.. I died trying some wacked out shit while some one bashed me with a tried and true method. Unless your manifest then the only tried and true thing in your life is devouring pound cakes one after the other. HAhAHAHAHAahah

Kaie

Actually, thinking about it it's not like in a group 2 people can't sit there and whore aeon or hangedman on you already. So, really it's not like a major advantage in group. Hangedman doesn't stack, aeon overlaps but still same thing can be done by 2 occies or jesters already. Hrm, why not then? It's like this, Occies got the abilities to passively afflict and slow down speed sipping allowing for more chance at sticking it and keep devil for 3 flings. I'd say it balances out the more I think about it. Jester opting for speedy throwing rather than increased devil and delayed speed. It could give aeon/aeon/kalmia at best which even then is entirely curable and hardly going to be the chaotic mess that an Occultist can throw at you due to domination passively afflicting you alongside his afflictions.

Aeolithon

0: aeon fling

2.5/(I'll assume 2.7 but I'm not sure what it is with nimble): curare throw

2.7: bloodroot

3.5: curare throw

4.2: bloodroot

4.3: kalmia

4.9/5: Aeon

5.8: herb bal

6.8: assuming no spam = kelp eat

7.8: assuming no spam = smoke elm.

(Considering they should still be technically be in blackout at this time, aeon won't catch right away either. If Tanris' classlead for You move sluggishly into action being removed from sight in Blackout goes through, even better! (I think that is this classlead round.)

I wish you lot what stop making Jester out to be worse than it is just because you aren't very good.

Jester is a magnificent arena class. Rampages, FFA's, whatever. It's also pretty adept at jumping if you yourself are a talented fighter. It is amazing in groups. The bashing is okay. Jester, all-in-all, while being a great class could use a few tweaks sure - Mainly aesthetic ones. Not the ones that you are proposing, because the purpose is all based on a lie. I say this as a Jester. We don't need combat buffs.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have a few buffs. Just that what you see lacking in a Jester is merely a reflection of your own ability. 

Xith

1) Half of jester is broken in the arena.

2) The other half is broken outside the arena.

3) I'm not a grief-jester. Don't mistake my lack of predictability for not being the best active one there is.

That's the combo I use, by the way, except one less throw, because speed comes back up too fast (another advantages occies have).

mickey + Ae + cur + kal + ae + kal, etc.

But I prefer accurate daggers over fast ones, so often enough their speed comes back up in time, not to mention the fact that mickey has no use outside aeon anymore. Doesn't use herb balance and gives an affliction that helps jesters a whole bunch.

"It would be abused in groups." Ok? And three devils in a row is hardly abusive in groups (no offense, Ashtan).

Vadimuses

If Tanris' classlead for You move sluggishly into action being removed from sight in Blackout goes through, even better! (I think that is this classlead round.)

I hope that's not a serious proposition - you already somehow, at times, can't see the doppy enter the room to aeon you under blackout.

Xith

Yeah, removing sluggish blackout sounds like a painful overcorrection. Already plenty that gets hidden for an occultist in blackout. Even while trying to diag I sometimes come out of a blackout almost prepped for enlighten. Target coming out of a blackout completely aeon locked would be too much power for jester too, which is what would happen if they couldn't detect it.