Veil

Tael

Ahmet said:

Wait, someone sitting on a ship in-harbour has a counter?

Okay, all but one of those things.

And that one means that they're stuck unable to interact with the world at all or even move around in it.

Actually, all of those ways of hiding from consequences except veils impose severe restrictions on what you can do in the game while you're hiding - in addition to all the rest having wind-ups or ways of hindering them or ways of pulling people out of them.

Edit: Actually, can you return to an in-harbour ship instantly, with no way to hinder it?

Kayeil

Just because interactions are encouraged doesn't mean they're forced by the admins. Pretty sure Sarapis has stated before how easily someone can play this like a single player game by, for example, becoming the hunter type who doesn't really bother to interact with anyone because they'd really rather focus on that, and there's no game mechanic made to force them to not be allowed to make that choice.

Shirszae

Kayeil said:

Just because interactions are encouraged doesn't mean they're forced by the admins. Pretty sure Sarapis has stated before how easily someone can play this like a single player game by, for example, becoming the hunter type who doesn't really bother to interact with anyone because they'd really rather focus on that, and there's no game mechanic made to force them to not be allowed to make that choice.

Did you actually read the part where most of this is aimed at people who start shit and then hide using their veils? Honestly you come across a bit like being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Something like this would not affect you at all, and would not affect anyone who played in the way you described at all, because such people would simply not start shit in the first place for which they would hide using their veil afterwards.

Shirszae

Tael said:

Ahmet said:

Wait, someone sitting on a ship in-harbour has a counter?

Edit: Actually, can you return to an in-harbour ship instantly, with no way to hinder it?

If you go to the harbour and have full health and mana then yeah. If yo use the shipreturn ability to return from afar you need both full health and mana and to wait a small amount of time until it goes through. 

Tael

Kayeil said:

Just because interactions are encouraged doesn't mean they're forced by the admins. Pretty sure Sarapis has stated before how easily someone can play this like a single player game by, for example, becoming the hunter type who doesn't really bother to interact with anyone because they'd really rather focus on that, and there's no game mechanic made to force them to not be allowed to make that choice.

Sarapis (and every other admin) has also stated, several times, explicitly, that if you do choose to engage with other players, you shouldn't be able to do something that affects them without them being able to respond in turn.

You can absolutely play the game single player. Nothing about any of the proposals in this thread (other than the inevitable "delete veils" posts) would stop you from doing that.

Shirszae said:

Tael said:

Ahmet said:

Wait, someone sitting on a ship in-harbour has a counter?

Edit: Actually, can you return to an in-harbour ship instantly, with no way to hinder it?

If you go to the harbour and have full health and mana then yeah. If yo use the shipreturn ability to return from afar you need both full health and mana and to wait a small amount of time until it goes through. 

Ah, so I was right. There is a way to deal with someone who tries to take hostile action then hide on their ship - you just have to damage them, interrupt their channel, and/or hinder their movement.

So it really is just veils.

Aegoth

Deleting veils would save Achaea from the impending Trumpmageddon

Kayeil

Shirszae said:

Kayeil said:

Just because interactions are encouraged doesn't mean they're forced by the admins. Pretty sure Sarapis has stated before how easily someone can play this like a single player game by, for example, becoming the hunter type who doesn't really bother to interact with anyone because they'd really rather focus on that, and there's no game mechanic made to force them to not be allowed to make that choice.

Did you actually read the part where most of this is aimed at people who start shit and then hide using their veils? Honestly you come across a bit like being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Something like this would not affect you at all, and would not affect anyone who played in the way you described at all, because such people would simply not start shit in the first place for which they would hide using their veil afterwards.

Yep I sure did. Did you also read where I didn't disagree anywhere with a change to veils when it comes to PK. I already had a lengthy chat with Atalkez in private messages, started by him, about the PK part where it could be altered for that, but otherwise maintain the way it normally works. Funny how Antonius can make a comment about how certain "logic" doesn't make sense or doesn't hold up, but I do and someone gets shitty with me about it. I'm getting really damn tired of people targetting with me just because I say I disagree or agree with something or have an opinion. Maybe YOU should read and notice I didn't say anything against the change about its combat implications. I merely said if people are going to go on and on about how it makes people less difficult to interact with in general, that they need to remember that the admins don't force us to interact with anyone at all if we don't want, and it's the wrong reason to focus on for the proposed change.

Frederich

Tael said:

Kayeil said:

Just because interactions are encouraged doesn't mean they're forced by the admins. Pretty sure Sarapis has stated before how easily someone can play this like a single player game by, for example, becoming the hunter type who doesn't really bother to interact with anyone because they'd really rather focus on that, and there's no game mechanic made to force them to not be allowed to make that choice.

Sarapis (and every other admin) has also stated, several times, explicitly, that if you do choose to engage with other players, you shouldn't be able to do something that affects them without them being able to respond in turn.

You can absolutely play the game single player. Nothing about any of the proposals in this thread (other than the inevitable "delete veils" posts) would stop you from doing that.

Shirszae said:

Tael said:

Ahmet said:

Wait, someone sitting on a ship in-harbour has a counter?

Edit: Actually, can you return to an in-harbour ship instantly, with no way to hinder it?

If you go to the harbour and have full health and mana then yeah. If yo use the shipreturn ability to return from afar you need both full health and mana and to wait a small amount of time until it goes through. 

Ah, so I was right. There is a way to deal with someone who tries to take hostile action then hide on their ship - you just have to damage them, interrupt their channel, and/or hinder their movement.

So it really is just veils.

Just as an FYI; "You can stop someone running to their ship by damaging them!"  isn't actually that valid.

Especially considering it takes.. what.  3-4 sips to get to max HP or something like that?  A serpent (Not naming any NAMES HERE *cough cough* Classlead 235), can quickly outpace anyone to a harbour if they have the ability to wormhole there.  Wormhole, Wings (ESPECIALLY island wings), and a number of other things make it a quick and almost instantaneous get away option right after stealing/murdering someone.

I'm not doshing on you for not noticing the pattern over the past few days, but a CERTAIN serpent has been doing the whole Kill Person (generally a novice), instantly phase, or just flat out run to their ship.  Board ship instantly.  The only proper way to actually stop this and hinder the target is to have someone lying in wait at the target destination and have them smack the person around until the cavalry arrives.  In a 1 on 1 situation, this is nigh impossible to actually combat... even worse if they can simply phase and get there.  They get there, unphase, board ship.  Tada.

Tael

Frederich said:

Tael said:

Kayeil said:

Just because interactions are encouraged doesn't mean they're forced by the admins. Pretty sure Sarapis has stated before how easily someone can play this like a single player game by, for example, becoming the hunter type who doesn't really bother to interact with anyone because they'd really rather focus on that, and there's no game mechanic made to force them to not be allowed to make that choice.

Sarapis (and every other admin) has also stated, several times, explicitly, that if you do choose to engage with other players, you shouldn't be able to do something that affects them without them being able to respond in turn.

You can absolutely play the game single player. Nothing about any of the proposals in this thread (other than the inevitable "delete veils" posts) would stop you from doing that.

Shirszae said:

Tael said:

Ahmet said:

Wait, someone sitting on a ship in-harbour has a counter?

Edit: Actually, can you return to an in-harbour ship instantly, with no way to hinder it?

If you go to the harbour and have full health and mana then yeah. If yo use the shipreturn ability to return from afar you need both full health and mana and to wait a small amount of time until it goes through. 

Ah, so I was right. There is a way to deal with someone who tries to take hostile action then hide on their ship - you just have to damage them, interrupt their channel, and/or hinder their movement.

So it really is just veils.

Just as an FYI; "You can stop someone running to their ship by damaging them!"  isn't actually that valid.

Especially considering it takes.. what.  3-4 sips to get to max HP or something like that?  A serpent (Not naming any NAMES HERE *cough cough* Classlead 235), can quickly outpace anyone to a harbour if they have the ability to wormhole there.  Wormhole, Wings (ESPECIALLY island wings), and a number of other things make it a quick and almost instantaneous get away option right after stealing/murdering someone.

I'm not doshing on you for not noticing the pattern over the past few days, but a CERTAIN serpent has been doing the whole Kill Person (generally a novice), instantly phase, or just flat out run to their ship.  Board ship instantly.  The only proper way to actually stop this and hinder the target is to have someone lying in wait at the target destination and have them smack the person around until the cavalry arrives.  In a 1 on 1 situation, this is nigh impossible to actually combat... even worse if they can simply phase and get there.  They get there, unphase, board ship.  Tada.

Except you can't instantly phase. Phasing isn't instant. And you have to be alone in the room.

I'm not saying it's easy to stop someone from escaping with those abilities. In a lot of cases you won't be able to stop them. Having counters that aren't particularly strong is more or less fine. Wings have always been a ridiculously strong means of escape (although note that wings are another ability where admin added in ways to hinder their use explicitly to counteract people using them as a surefire escape).

What isn't fine is an item that doesn't have any counter, even a bad one. The only counter against someone with a veil is to own a veil (or have access to a bot player that has a veil).

I'm not saying that people with veils shouldn't be able to escape from things. I'm not saying that they should face surefire righteous retribution. All I'm saying is that they should have some counter, even a weak one. Merely giving people the ability to briefly detect their assailants after being attacked by them does not seem at all unreasonable. I'm honestly just floored that so many people seem to be so bent on arguing against the proposal. A lot of these replies and nitpicking feel an awful lot like some pretty extreme bikeshedding.

Frederich

Oh lawd.  @Tael no no.  I wasn't disagreeing with veils.  Veils are stupid and need a counter as seen in my previous posts.

I was just clarifying things with ships because using ships to avoid conflict is kind of dumb.

#CounterVeil2k16

Klendathu

I can think of other things I can spend the 2k credit refund on if veils are deleted. I'm not overly bothered either way, bought my veil 10+ years ago so veiled people showed up on mindnet.

Khel

Own a veil in another IRE. It is the most obvious 'your wallet against mine' mechanic imaginable. They get even more obnoxious as populations dwindle - people in a city with veils stop playing, good luck ever finding me. They need to go IRE-wide, but they won't because IRE makes too much money off of them.

Dunn

I'm with Klen. Gimme my 2k and I won't give a shit. I can 2/3 trans my fourth class (that's sad and hilarious).

Antidas

Kayeil said: Funny how Antonius can make a comment about how certain "logic" doesn't make sense or doesn't hold up, but I do and someone gets shitty with me about it. I'm getting really damn tired of people targetting with me just because I say I disagree or agree with something or have an opinion. 

No offense intended at all, but if you notice this happening, maybe you should stop and consider why you are getting that reaction when other people make what you perceive to be similar comments and get completely different reactions. I won't pretend to sit here and analyze why that happens, mostly because it leads down a road that I don't particularly want to walk down right now, but if people react to your posts differently than those of Antonius, there's probably a reason for it.

Kayeil

Antidas said:

Kayeil said: Funny how Antonius can make a comment about how certain "logic" doesn't make sense or doesn't hold up, but I do and someone gets shitty with me about it. I'm getting really damn tired of people targetting with me just because I say I disagree or agree with something or have an opinion. 

No offense intended at all, but if you notice this happening, maybe you should stop and consider why you are getting that reaction when other people make what you perceive to be similar comments and get completely different reactions. I won't pretend to sit here and analyze why that happens, mostly because it leads down a road that I don't particularly want to walk down right now, but if people react to your posts differently than those of Antonius, there's probably a reason for it.

A lot of those ones who do are either friends with people I don't get along well with in the game, or are people I don't get along with in the game. The latter are people who've never really interacted with me to any degree. I've actually had other people message me because they notice people doing this just to irritate me or be mean, not because they believe they're really adding anything important to the conversation. Especially when it turns into personal insults. Either way, I don't think it justifies people being dickish and telling me I shouldn't talk just because they or their friend doesn't like me. Some of them do disagree with me just to disagree with me regardless if I am really just supporting something already said by someone else. On the other hand, I'll agree with someone I don't like if it seems reasonable, doesn't matter how much I dislike them. I've actually had people message me in game and tell me they don't like it when I rave or am happy about something in my real life or in the game because they don't want to hear about good things happening with my friends or good things occasionally happening to me. I've just come to accept there are people in this game who let the worst sides of their personalities come out, and instead of just avoiding or leaving alone people they don't like, they'll go out of their way to do anything to be an asshole whether it's snide little comments, disagreeing just to disagree, making personal insults, etc. I don't even care, because I'm not seeking anyone's approval here, it's just really petty and stupid, and these people claim they "don't care about me" except when they post they've very clearly been paying attention to everything I say on forums and things I do in the game regardless of zero interaction. What they need is something better to do, because I'm honestly just minding my own business. I hang out with my friends in game, spend time alone, or I'm doing something else.

Kayeil

I should also say I'm not here to talk about me, or have people tell me why they don't like me or don't care about my opinions regardless if they can be valuable or not. All I did was make a comment that changing the veil should have nothing to do with player to player interaction in general because it isn't forced on us to begin with. I never disagreed with the PK part of it. I did absolutely nothing wrong, and I shouldn't have to change or not post  just because select individuals don't like me for whatever made up reasons in their heads they've made (because they don't know me, and it's all speculation, rumours, or lies at this point). With the people I AM friends with, they have and I have been extremely loyal and dedicated for YEARS. We talk all the time, help each other out, and trust each other completely. We have full mutual respect, and do almost anything we can for each other. Funny that some of these people are highly respected individuals who've been  playing Achaea for years with a long list of accomplishments. So I must be doing something right as a great friend. I'm extremely good to the people who give me a chance, but if you're just going to be an asshole without ever bothering to interact with me, then no I'm not going to be pleasant or very tolerable. I'll maybe avoid you and choose not to interact instead of having conflict, but a lot of these individuals seem to prefer conflict instead of just mutually agreeing to just leave each other alone.

Antidas

I can message you in private @Kayeil. No need to further derail this thread with personal matters.

Kayeil

Antidas said:

I can message you in private @Kayeil. No need to further derail this thread with personal matters.

I don't really care either way. You brought it up.

Aegoth

Stop derailing with petty "Woe Is Me" shit.

Delete Veils pls. End the scourge of unneeded artefacts. Reveal all players to the concept of consequences! Yea, so mote it be!

Kayeil

Aegoth said:

Stop derailing with petty "Woe Is Me" shit.

Delete Veils pls. End the scourge of unneeded artefacts. Reveal all players to the concept of consequences! Yea, so mote it be!

Stop telling me what to do and blaming me for things other people brought up. Mind your own business.

Austere

Two pages and already a derail. I'm all for deleting veils.  Hell, I'm even okay if they don't refund anyone that has had it over 1 rl year [this includes me]. It's going to be better for all interactions, including combat.  Slowing power creep and opening up people to actual consequences for their actions is never a bad thing.  

With that said, can we get an admin response to this?  Pretty please.  No point in this turning into another 6 page thread just to end with a "Not something we're looking at doing currently". I believe both sides of the spectrum have had a chance to throw out their opinion. There is no point in letting us continue to squabble over this.  @Tecton

Trey

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/fragilefemme.htm

Kayeil

Trey said:

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/fragilefemme.htm

Is that really necessary?

Dortheron

Trey said:

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/fragilefemme.htm

@Trey While I dislike it being used to ad hominem @Kayeil instead of coming back on topic, this site is hilarious and I will save it for future reference

Trey

Kayeil said:

Trey said:

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/fragilefemme.htm

Is that really necessary?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you implying that this has something to do with you, even when I didn't mention your name whatsoever?

EDIT: But I mean, if the shoe fits, lace that bitch up and wear it, I guess.

Trey

Dortheron said:

Trey said:

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/fragilefemme.htm

@Trey Why have I not seen this site sooner?!

Because someone just showed it to me recently.

Kayeil

Trey said:

Kayeil said:

Trey said:

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/fragilefemme.htm

Is that really necessary?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you implying that this has something to do with you, even when I didn't mention your name whatsoever?

EDIT: But I mean, if the shoe fits, lace that bitch up and wear it, I guess.

Who else would it be about? Don't play stupid. The thing is, it's not even remotely accurate because I wouldn't consider any one of you family; Quite frankly, I've never been around such a toxic group of people in my entire life. This wouldn't be the first time you've made an insult to me on forums, via private message, or even in tells because I don't meet your standard of what a "cool" person is like.

Dortheron

Austere said:

Two pages and already a derail. I'm all for deleting veils.  Hell, I'm even okay if they don't refund anyone that has had it over 1 rl year [this includes me]. It's going to be better for all interactions, including combat.  Slowing power creep and opening up people to actual consequences for their actions is never a bad thing.  

With that said, can we get an admin response to this?  Pretty please.  No point in this turning into another 6 page thread just to end with a "Not something we're looking at doing currently". I believe both sides of the spectrum have had a chance to throw out their opinion. There is no point in letting us continue to squabble over this.  @Tecton

This isn't the first time I've seen a post about Veil's and it most likely won't be the last. It's a hot button topic that gets thrown around every now and then and both sides of the argument hasn't changed since I've started paying attention, except for possibly the inclusion of the ethereal shrouds being a thing now. Unless They state otherwise, it's best to assume that it's not something they're going to change any time soon. I could be wrong though!

Krypton

This thread is turning people into complete bitches, which achieves, for free, the same end result as a Veil: People won't (can't?) interact with you anymore.

Keep up the good work, everyone. This Veil issue will solve itself in no time

Trey

Kayeil said:

Trey said:

Kayeil said:

Trey said:

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/fragilefemme.htm

Is that really necessary?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you implying that this has something to do with you, even when I didn't mention your name whatsoever?

EDIT: But I mean, if the shoe fits, lace that bitch up and wear it, I guess.

Who else would it be about? Don't play stupid. The thing is, it's not even remotely accurate because I wouldn't consider any one of you family; Quite frankly, I've never been around such a toxic group of people in my entire life. This wouldn't be the first time you've made an insult to me on forums, via private message, or even in tells because I don't meet your standard of what a "cool" person is like.

A casual perusal of my inbox indicates that I've never insulted you in PMs, I regularly delete my sent folder or I'd be able to see if I'd done that, either. The fact that you saw the contents of that link and IMMEDIATELY came to the conclusion that it somehow fit you is somewhat telling, though.