Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 6.2K All Categories
- 3.1K Everything Achaea
- 1.5K North of Thera
- 26 Archives of the Terraformer
- 257 The Matsuhama Arena
- 885 The Golden Dais of Creation
- 299 The Scarlattan Theatre
- 149 The Blank Canvas
- 2K Getting Help
- 412 General Questions
- 258 Quick Class Questions
- 1.3K Tech Support
- 313 Client Help
- 486 Curing Systems and Scripts
- 841 Off-Topic
- 255 The Wander Inn
- 586 The Universal Membrane
- 298 Class Discussions
- 298 Individual Class Sections
- 20 Alchemist
- 9 Apostate
- 30 Blademaster
- 9 Depthswalker
- 14 Druid
- 4 Infernal
- 20 Jester
- 19 Magi
- 34 Monk
- 11 Occultist
- 8 Paladin
- 7 Priest
- 29 Runewarden
- 18 Sentinel
- 26 Serpent
- 20 Shaman
- 9 Sylvan
Veil
Report #90
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by: You Status : Rejected
Skill : Artefacts Ability : Veil
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem:
Currently, for the (che...let's not joke, it's not even cheap) price of 2000 credits you can buy
yourself perpetual combat immunity. Now, for those that do not take part in combat actively, this is
certainly understandable and not an issue. It's those that use the Veil as a means to hide from
their own actions, with no recourse available except "find someone with a Veil" or "buy a Veil" -
which does not address the problem. Understandably, neither will the Veil be deleted, as it is a
source of revenue for the game. So, my solution!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution #1:
Add a skill at Trans in either Survival or Vision, called Revenge. This skill will allow you to
REVENGE SEEK <target>, which will bypass the Veil. This ability is only use-able on a target that
has been hostile towards you in the last 3 minutes. To help combat wear veil/n/w/say duanathar/d
craziness, make the balance on the ability be VERY small. .5s to 1s for the seek.
Solution #2:
Solution #3:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decision:
Beyond the scope of classleads.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Tecton - care to weigh in on this? I understand the trepidation of nerfing one of the most expensive artefacts of the game, but I really really do think this needs to be implemented in some form. Was the Veil always intended to be used to be impervious to any retribution that can come your way, like it's being used (by combatants) now?
And before anyone gets on here and tries to do the whole "but X has a Veil" - just save it, please. That's not the topic, and has nothing to do with the idea.
Thanks!
@Tecton - care to weigh in on this? I understand the trepidation of nerfing one of the most expensive artefacts of the game, but I really really do think this needs to be implemented in some form. Was the Veil always intended to be used to be impervious to any retribution that can come your way, like it's being used (by combatants) now?
And before anyone gets on here and tries to do the whole "but X has a Veil" - just save it, please. That's not the topic, and has nothing to do with the idea.
Thanks!
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
4
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Just a thought, I know my combat focus has been at sea for a while now.
That's incredibly awkward. Even if it were made an ability and shoehorned into an existing skill, I can't think of any other abilities that exist exclusively to allow people to deal with a single artefact.
If IRE is finally willing to address the longstanding problems that veils present in making it possible to take aggressive actions without repercussions (worse yet, the newer the affected players are, the less likely they have their own veil or automated "radar dish" friends to track veil-users) there is a much simpler (mechanically, probably not programmatically) solution:
Just make veils cease functioning against only the target of an aggressive action for a couple of minutes. That way veil is still very much useful and you only lose the power to attack people without being tracked. You even still get the benefits of the veil against everyone else. I seriously can't see anyone saying that's unfair or that it "negates" one of the most expensive artefacts. If you bought a veil to be able to attack people without them being able to respond, I don't think a lot of sympathy is warranted.
I really can't imagine anyone seriously complaining that it's an unacceptable loss of functionality in their purchase because they bought a veil to grief people and this makes it harder.
So, essentially, exactly what the classlead proposes but in a less weird mechanical way. I endorsed the classlead with this suggestion too.
So if a veil user attacks someone and then is able to be located by their target for X amount of minutes, is this negated if they choose to use an ethereal shroud on top of their veil?
I already idea'd that a few months ago.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
What if people who perform hostile actions ((People who indemnify them will ignore this, as will the arena)) lose the benefit of their veil? That, or they lose the "General Area" effect of it. Meaning that you can see what area they're in, just not the specific room until the timer resets and they're un-revealed due to hostile actions.
That's just a feeling that I get when looking at who I know has veils.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
If you bought a veil solely because you thought it would let you get away with griefing people...too bad? I don't think admin are under any obligation whatsoever to offer a refund in that case.
Do people really think that one of the "main" functions of the veil is supposed to be that you can attack people and they can't respond?
To illustrate the point, I think owners of veils should have to live one week without being able to detect other veil owners. See how much fun that is. It isn't fun. It sucks!
Delete Veils please!
(You can keep the one hour duration shrouds)
Want to walk into a city and murder someone? Well you can do that now too with a veil. No one will even see you on mindnet, fullsense, or any other form of vision unless they too have a veil. Want to get retribution for that guy that just shanked you in the back then ran off like a coward?
Too bad, you better go hire a mark because you aren't going to find him on your own without a 2000 ($579.99 USD) item. Disabling ONE function, for a specific period of time after committing an act of violence against another person is fair, completely so. It's like 5 minutes. If nothing else, add a 200-300 CR item that pierces the Veil Defense should the Veil user attack them. It gets IRE money, and keeps your veil (for whatever it's worth, since people are so adamant on being able to grief easily), usable.
You know, up until you decide to stab someone then Duanathar back to whatever place you call a city and hide on guard stacks (or your ship). Veils don't make the game for anyone, and turns the mark system into a sort of Paywall for anyone that wants to go up. You're forced to buy a veil to see certain people you take a hit out on.
Someone with veil can quite easily stand on the sidelines, waiting to see when certain invidiuals are in a vulnerable spot and/or when other individuals are not around. They can go in, attack and kill, and get out either with a kill or if things get hot with a simple Duanathar.
Try fighting with a Blizzard -and- veil, and play "Guess who".
People have been complaining about raids for years, too, but that doesn't mean we should take the immediate reaction in the minutes/hours directly following a raid as a sign to remove raiding from the game. Repeatedly having the same reaction immediately following something you dislike occurring doesn't make it less of a knee-jerk reaction.
Not saying I disagree with you, or that I think everything about Veils is fine, just pointing out that I think the logic in that particular post isn't necessarily completely sound.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, a dull ache builds behind your eyes and blurs <targets> location.
1 second balance for fail or something.
While new developments are always trying to push greater interaction between players, veils do the opposite.
Where conflict mechanisms and better combat interactions are being fostered, veils do the opposite.
Where lots of changes have been trying to increase the accessibility of combat for less combat-focused characters, veils create a huge price barrier to being able to functionally participate in certain parts of that.
I can understand why people like veils. I cannot understand how anyone can realistically pretend that they're good for the game world.
The game is completely consistent about that. Someone attacks you then tries to phase? They have to be alone in the room to phase and phase has a windup - if you're quick, you've got a moment of opportunity to stop them and if you can figure out where they are, there's a universally available cheap item that exists specifically to pull people out of phase.
A few of those abilities have even had counters added in the past few years specifically to address this exact problem (this was made explicit when the changes went in). Admin have been pretty consistent that abilities are not supposed to be get out of jail free cards. The idea that you shouldn't be able to start shit and then not give people a chance to respond is pretty well-established.
All people here are talking about is adding a similar, very more minor counter for veils that isn't "pay almost $600 to have one of your own and make the problem even more widespread" or "have a friend with a veil use some of that automation that IRE keeps saying they're trying to reduce reliance on to act as a tell-triggered afk radar dish".
I don't understand all of the people posting here seemingly just to be contrary. In what sense is it good for the game for people to be able to pay $600 to attack people (particularly lowbies who are less likely to have veils themselves) without the possibility of reprisal? Why is it okay for veils to allow for that when admin have made numerous changes in the past explicitly aimed at preventing that exact same thing?
I know that veils are a big money-maker for IRE, but the main suggestions in this thread have not been about deleting them. They'd still be plenty useful. They'd still be enormously useful for combatants. It'd still be way harder to gank people, it doesn't even address the problem of Marks essentially needing veils to complete many contracts, it'd still be just as useful in infiltrating or raiding, it'd still protect you against every person in group combat except the people you've actively, recently attacked yourself. That's still an enormously useful item.
On the topic of Marks, it would also be nice to see the mark denizens sell a consumable item that could scry through a veil, but only of someone the mark has a contract on. Again - veils should be about being able to move about undetected, not about being immune to consequences after you've done something to draw attention to yourself. If you did something to warrant a contract being placed on you, you shouldn't get to ignore the consequences because you have a veil and participation in mark shouldn't rely on owning a veil for many targets.