Veil

Report #90
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Submitted by: You            Status      : Rejected
Skill       : Artefacts      Ability     : Veil
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Problem:
Currently, for the (che...let's not joke, it's not even cheap) price of 2000 credits you can buy 
yourself perpetual combat immunity. Now, for those that do not take part in combat actively, this is 
certainly understandable and not an issue. It's those that use the Veil as a means to hide from 
their own actions, with no recourse available except "find someone with a Veil" or "buy a Veil" - 
which does not address the problem. Understandably, neither will the Veil be deleted, as it is a 
source of revenue for the game. So, my solution!
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Solution #1:
Add a skill at Trans in either Survival or Vision, called Revenge. This skill will allow you to 
REVENGE SEEK <target>, which will bypass the Veil. This ability is only use-able on a target that 
has been hostile towards you in the last 3 minutes. To help combat wear veil/n/w/say duanathar/d 
craziness, make the balance on the ability be VERY small. .5s to 1s for the seek.
Solution #2:
Solution #3:
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Decision:
Beyond the scope of classleads.
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@Tecton - care to weigh in on this? I understand the trepidation of nerfing one of the most expensive artefacts of the game, but I really really do think this needs to be implemented in some form. Was the Veil always intended to be used to be impervious to any retribution that can come your way, like it's being used (by combatants) now?

And before anyone gets on here and tries to do the whole "but X has a Veil" - just save it, please. That's not the topic, and has nothing to do with the idea.

Thanks!




Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
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Comments

  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    Ethereal Shrouds were a great solution to this problem, they just need to be more available. Making them gold-purchasable would be ideal in my opinion, but even if they were still bought with credits on the cheap, 5-10cr per or a a package deal for 50cr, that would help solve this problem for an hour at a time, in the cases where it's most keenly felt.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • Personally, I just have to admit to disagreeing completely with this being a problem. Especially one that requires negating one of the most expensive artifacts available. I do like that your potential solution tries to make it tightly regulated, but I still have to disagree with it being needed.
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    Just delete them.  Multiclass should have offset any monitary losses ire will feel. .
  • A step back from Atalkez's suggestion would be allowing the rivals to bypass veils for as long as the rivalship lasts. That way, if the veil user is just using it to avoid annoyance but is still wanting to not eliminate all forms of conflict (you know someone wanting to play with other people), it gives an avenue from the owner to selectively drop it. This does require some coordinating and good faith on both parties but when is that ever a bad thing?

    Just a thought, I know my combat focus has been at sea for a while now.
  • This seems really overcomplicated mechanically. Why add in a new ability that people without veils have by virtue of interacting with people with veils?

    That's incredibly awkward. Even if it were made an ability and shoehorned into an existing skill, I can't think of any other abilities that exist exclusively to allow people to deal with a single artefact.

    If IRE is finally willing to address the longstanding problems that veils present in making it possible to take aggressive actions without repercussions (worse yet, the newer the affected players are, the less likely they have their own veil or automated "radar dish" friends to track veil-users) there is a much simpler (mechanically, probably not programmatically) solution:

    Just make veils cease functioning against only the target of an aggressive action for a couple of minutes. That way veil is still very much useful and you only lose the power to attack people without being tracked. You even still get the benefits of the veil against everyone else. I seriously can't see anyone saying that's unfair or that it "negates" one of the most expensive artefacts. If you bought a veil to be able to attack people without them being able to respond, I don't think a lot of sympathy is warranted.

    I really can't imagine anyone seriously complaining that it's an unacceptable loss of functionality in their purchase because they bought a veil to grief people and this makes it harder.

    So, essentially, exactly what the classlead proposes but in a less weird mechanical way. I endorsed the classlead with this suggestion too.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    This also doesn't address the function of ethereal shrouds which makes a veil work like Profit's if you own a veil already. When I was enemied to Targ, Kadin and I used to use those and sneak in and kill city denizens just for something to do that was out of the ordinary (for me). Certainly made tracking me a lot harder although they had an idea of where I was based on which denizen I was attacking, but gave me access to a part of the game I'd otherwise never taken part in because I'm a non-com and couldn't fight back.

    So if a veil user attacks someone and then is able to be located by their target for X amount of minutes, is this negated if they choose to use an ethereal shroud on top of their veil?
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • Greys said:
    A step back from Atalkez's suggestion would be allowing the rivals to bypass veils for as long as the rivalship lasts. That way, if the veil user is just using it to avoid annoyance but is still wanting to not eliminate all forms of conflict (you know someone wanting to play with other people), it gives an avenue from the owner to selectively drop it. This does require some coordinating and good faith on both parties but when is that ever a bad thing?

    Just a thought, I know my combat focus has been at sea for a while now.
    Filed by : Atalkez.
    Filed on : 2016/01/22 20:48:21
    Approved : NO
    Idea text:
    Allow mutual Rivals to bypass veil in the same manner that the Friends list does. Since Rivals can 
    only be agreed upon mutually, there would be no downside to adding this feature. It would promote 
    the ability for Rivals to not be able to "hide" from their chosen Rival, if that person has a Veil.

    I already idea'd that a few months ago.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • Well.  I mean.

    What if people who perform hostile actions ((People who indemnify them will ignore this, as will the arena)) lose the benefit of their veil?  That, or they lose the "General Area" effect of it.  Meaning that you can see what area they're in, just not the specific room until the timer resets and they're un-revealed due to hostile actions.
  • That is honestly removing the point of veils. And I am confident more combat people buy veils than non combat people ... non combat people don't need the veil as they don't need to hide.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    I'm a non-com and own a veil. Lots of non-coms do.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • ^ditto.
  • I would say there is probably a greater portion of people that own Veils that aren't using them to steal/PK, than those that do.

    That's just a feeling that I get when looking at who I know has veils.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • So yeah, just removing one feature of the veil, to allow for people to get revenge for "oh no, this jerk murdered me and I literally can't do anything about it because I can't find him at all" is kinda nice.
  • Frederich said:
    So yeah, just removing one feature of the veil, to allow for people to get revenge for "oh no, this jerk murdered me and I literally can't do anything about it because I can't find him at all" is kinda nice.
    I would give +1 to the idea of removing a (main) function of a 2000 credit artifact, but only in the event that veil owners are given a full refund. I'm also not a veil owner.
  • edited April 2016
    Tolan said:
    Frederich said:
    So yeah, just removing one feature of the veil, to allow for people to get revenge for "oh no, this jerk murdered me and I literally can't do anything about it because I can't find him at all" is kinda nice.
    I would give +1 to the idea of removing a (main) function of a 2000 credit artifact, but only in the event that veil owners are given a full refund. I'm also not a veil owner.
    The idea that veil owners deserve a full refund for removing their ability to attack people without the possibility of reprisal (from just the person they attacked even! and only for a few minutes!) is pretty ludicrous.

    If you bought a veil solely because you thought it would let you get away with griefing people...too bad? I don't think admin are under any obligation whatsoever to offer a refund in that case.

    Do people really think that one of the "main" functions of the veil is supposed to be that you can attack people and they can't respond?
  • People are paying 2000 credits for a item that allows them to remain hidden from people that don't have the same artifact. Whether it's because they just attacked someone, or just stole from someone, the fact of the matter is that it's still the intended effect of the artifact.
  • edited April 2016
    Veil is a pointless, utterly idiotic mechanic. The only reason it still exists is because of the $$$$'s it generates for IRE. From a gameplay perspective they really really need to be deleted.

    To illustrate the point, I think owners of veils should have to live one week without being able to detect other veil owners. See how much fun that is. It isn't fun. It sucks!

    Delete Veils please!

    (You can keep the one hour duration shrouds)
    image
  • It's an effect that is, for lack of a better phrase, ruins peoples experience of the game.

    Want to walk into a city and murder someone?  Well you can do that now too with a veil.  No one will even see you on mindnet, fullsense, or any other form of vision unless they too have a veil.  Want to get retribution for that guy that just shanked you in the back then ran off like a coward?

    Too bad, you better go hire a mark because you aren't going to find him on your own without a 2000 ($579.99 USD) item.  Disabling ONE function, for a specific period of time after committing an act of violence against another person is fair, completely so.  It's like 5 minutes.  If nothing else, add a 200-300 CR item that pierces the Veil Defense should the Veil user attack them.  It gets IRE money, and keeps your veil (for whatever it's worth, since people are so adamant on being able to grief easily), usable.

    You know, up until you decide to stab someone then Duanathar back to whatever place you call a city and hide on guard stacks (or your ship).  Veils don't make the game for anyone, and turns the mark system into a sort of Paywall for anyone that wants to go up.  You're forced to buy a veil to see certain people you take a hit out on.
  • Dislike Veils, personally (though I'm now a mark, and am certainly not good enough at combat to actually want to seek out the likes of Proficy for a scrap). And I'm all for a mechanic that allows people to hide from the consequences of their actions. Would fully endorse this idea. Though it's not like you can't buy a veil using gold generated in game. I'm lower end of the bell curve in terms of gold per hour as a dragon and I reckon three RL months of saving gets me that Veil. Purely with in game generated gold.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • Delete phase. Delete astralform. Delete ships. Delete black wind. Delete gare.  Delete burrow. Delete everything and anything that allows people to do anything to anyone and then be able to not be detected by them unless they spend thousands of credits switching class or buying artifacts or asking their friends who have that ability to locate them. 
  • JonathinJonathin Retired in a hole.
    The knee-jerk reaction to veils is always amusing. I find it mildly irritating when a bunch of people come in and raid with veils, but beyond that I don't even care. The most I could see happening is losing the veil effect when entering an enemy city, but even then I don't really care.
    I am retired and log into the forums maybe once every 2 months. It was a good 20 years, live your best lives, friends.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    Jonathin said:
    The knee-jerk reaction to veils is always amusing. I find it mildly irritating when a bunch of people come in and raid with veils, but beyond that I don't even care. The most I could see happening is losing the veil effect when entering an enemy city, but even then I don't really care.
    Make it a city improvement!
    Huh. Neat.
  • Frankly Veil has evolved from what it's original use was to a far more destructive use. It originally was based on the idea of staying out of sight from prying and hostile eyes seeking you out, thus giving you the comfort you seek, now it is used in an offensive capacity, with people using it to gain and edge over competition, and it is becoming more and more apparent how destructive this can be. People can use veil to enter a city unnoticed, go to wherever an advantage can be gained, do what needs doing, and leave before people can even notice. Mindnets and Fullsenses are completely pointless unless you invest 2k credits to thwart these holes in your defense.


    Someone with veil can quite easily stand on the sidelines, waiting to see when certain invidiuals are in a vulnerable spot and/or when other individuals are not around. They can go in, attack and kill, and get out either with a kill or if things get hot with a simple Duanathar.


    Try fighting with a Blizzard -and- veil, and play "Guess who".
  • Hardly knee-jerk if people have been saying it for years.
  • Kiet said:
    Hardly knee-jerk if people have been saying it for years.

    People have been complaining about raids for years, too, but that doesn't mean we should take the immediate reaction in the minutes/hours directly following a raid as a sign to remove raiding from the game. Repeatedly having the same reaction immediately following something you dislike occurring doesn't make it less of a knee-jerk reaction.

    Not saying I disagree with you, or that I think everything about Veils is fine, just pointing out that I think the logic in that particular post isn't necessarily completely sound.

  • JonathinJonathin Retired in a hole.
    Kiet said:
    Hardly knee-jerk if people have been saying it for years.
      I'll ignore the implication of condescension and state that I do in-fact know what a knee-jerk reaction is. I like the 'delete veils' reactions that people have when something happens and a forum post pops up. That part of my post may have been unclear, I'm not calling the general feeling that 'veils r dumb' knee-jerk. If they were to actually delete them, part of my entertainment will be gone.
    I am retired and log into the forums maybe once every 2 months. It was a good 20 years, live your best lives, friends.
  • I like the idea of aggressive actions removing veils functionality, but why not make it work on a % chance to fail depending on the time since they hit you - so up to 30 seconds, 100% failure, 1 min, 80% etc down to a 3 minute timer where there's a 10% chance farsee/scry etc will work on the enemy.

    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, a dull ache builds behind your eyes and blurs <targets> location.

    1 second balance for fail or something.
     
  • edited April 2016
    Grandue said:
    Delete phase. Delete astralform. Delete ships. Delete black wind. Delete gare.  Delete burrow. Delete everything and anything that allows people to do anything to anyone and then be able to not be detected by them unless they spend thousands of credits switching class or buying artifacts or asking their friends who have that ability to locate them. 
    Note how every single one of those things has either restrictions on turning it on or ways to pull people out of it or both.

    The game is completely consistent about that. Someone attacks you then tries to phase? They have to be alone in the room to phase and phase has a windup - if you're quick, you've got a moment of opportunity to stop them and if you can figure out where they are, there's a universally available cheap item that exists specifically to pull people out of phase.

    A few of those abilities have even had counters added in the past few years specifically to address this exact problem (this was made explicit when the changes went in). Admin have been pretty consistent that abilities are not supposed to be get out of jail free cards. The idea that you shouldn't be able to start shit and then not give people a chance to respond is pretty well-established.

    All people here are talking about is adding a similar, very more minor counter for veils that isn't "pay almost $600 to have one of your own and make the problem even more widespread" or "have a friend with a veil use some of that automation that IRE keeps saying they're trying to reduce reliance on to act as a tell-triggered afk radar dish".

    I don't understand all of the people posting here seemingly just to be contrary. In what sense is it good for the game for people to be able to pay $600 to attack people (particularly lowbies who are less likely to have veils themselves) without the possibility of reprisal? Why is it okay for veils to allow for that when admin have made numerous changes in the past explicitly aimed at preventing that exact same thing?

    I know that veils are a big money-maker for IRE, but the main suggestions in this thread have not been about deleting them. They'd still be plenty useful. They'd still be enormously useful for combatants. It'd still be way harder to gank people, it doesn't even address the problem of Marks essentially needing veils to complete many contracts, it'd still be just as useful in infiltrating or raiding, it'd still protect you against every person in group combat except the people you've actively, recently attacked yourself. That's still an enormously useful item.

    On the topic of Marks, it would also be nice to see the mark denizens sell a consumable item that could scry through a veil, but only of someone the mark has a contract on. Again - veils should be about being able to move about undetected, not about being immune to consequences after you've done something to draw attention to yourself. If you did something to warrant a contract being placed on you, you shouldn't get to ignore the consequences because you have a veil and participation in mark shouldn't rely on owning a veil for many targets.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    Wait, someone sitting on a ship in-harbour has a counter?
    Huh. Neat.
This discussion has been closed.