Classless Discussion Q1 2016

Dochitha

Atalkez said:

It's harder to add a counter to a single ability for the majority of classes than it is to change one ability to make it more manageable.

Yeah, understandable. Though personally I don't think "going with less work" is a good consideration, but of course, we have limited resources, budget, time and all right. Just thinking educe salt vs electrify is fun. Kai cripple on snap is fun, and all those skill-based defenses while annoyingly break your endgame sequence, but they are legit and awesome.

Khel

Rangor said:

Aerek said:

Rangor said:

I find that most people who die to the '12' second Sylvan electrify generally don't know what it is, has 0 defensive buffs (resistance rings and miniskills ), don't know they have defensive abilities to counter it or doesn't know when to fly. Mainly they are face smashing their aff tracker and they die. 

On the other side, electrify has insane artied unprepped burst no matter how you look at it.

My pet pete is how easy it is for new apostates to stack and lock with fast, shield and rebounding penetrating, on demand aff. I swear medi locks me before I can even electrify unless I where aerial. Poor sods those who can't get out of graveyards! This momentum, with easy room hinder. Oooooooopppppppp.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I'm usually arguing from the perspective of the "little guy". We all complain that there's no "new blood" in the combat scene, and part of that problem is that so many of our classes are balanced around the high-tier crowd that has all the miniskills and escape/utility artefacts, that the little guy really has no chance against anyone good. When a combat-interested midbie who doesn't have miniskills, who can't fly, who doesn't have wings, and has 4k health to their name comes to me about a class like Sylvan (and others) saying "How do I survive this?" I basically have to say, "Yeah, you haven't spent enough money to fight that class yet."

That's harsh, and that discourages people would would otherwise like to get into it, so I would be mindful about statements that start with "All you need is..." and think about how expensive that "all you need" really is. If you're going to tell me that Galvanism and a Ring of Flying is required to fight your class, I'm gonna say that class needs to be reigned in a little.

little guy fighting an unartied sylvan should be able to manage. He'd get completely wrecked by a lvl 3 dirk serpent or unartied apostate too. Dunno why sylvan is special there.

That's not a sylvan problem, that's the design of the game.

I dunno what arties will be required to handle a level 3 dirk or unartied apostate, but having to go buy +sip or +health because a 2H decided to take away 25% of my hp every time they hit is a little un-fun. At least with a level 3 dirk I don't have to go bashing to end-game to get health to minimize the strategy.

Anedhel

Level 3 sword/hammer 2h is a nightmare. They don't miss much even clumsy, and while weariness is a ginormous help, if you're fighting a runie, chances are hugalaz'll flare, and you'll be behind on your sip/fracture cure for the rest of the fight, unless you fly away. Isaz/engage, piety, and gravehands (all 2h specs have a room hinder) make it pretty rough to try and get away, too. It's in a good place, I feel, since the investment to have monster strength and a level 3 weapon is pretty steep, but I agree it's a pain in the ass to fight. (Looking at you, Jarrel )

Dunn

Don't forget leg tendons also hindering movement because fuck you. 

Dunn

3451h, 6227m, 24480e, 28553w cexk-m3k

[System]: Running queued eqbal command: QUEUEALIAS

You call upon Whiirh and unleash a forceful blow towards Farrah with your trusty 

staff.

A gust of wind strikes Farrah, throwing her to the ground.

Justice is dealt out and your attack rebounds onto you.

You direct a crystalline golem to disrupt the flow of time around Farrah.

As a crystalline golem begins to pulse with a strange inner glow, Farrah sways 

unsteadily.

Justice is dealt out and your attack rebounds onto you.

1303h, 5997m, 24465e, 28525w ck-m3k

So done with this shit. That combo does a whopping ~500 damage standalone. 2100 rebounded.

Aegoth

actually, it's 2148 damage rebounded. You can't just ignore that 2.2%

Saeva

I've been griping about the justice affliction since I dueled...I don't even know who, and I got hit twice by it rebounding off palpitation and it flat out killed me. 

Dunn

I killed myself with hailstorm when I was first Magi like five years ago. Justice... Justice never changes. 

Aegoth

Killed myself with my own holocaust once because of Justice.

#NeverJustice

Arador

I have taken over 1000 over a damn darkshade tick on a priest (could have been even more, I died on the tick). Yeah Justice needs some looking at.

Farrah

Dunn said:

3451h, 6227m, 24480e, 28553w cexk-m3k

[System]: Running queued eqbal command: QUEUEALIAS

You call upon Whiirh and unleash a forceful blow towards Farrah with your trusty 

staff.

A gust of wind strikes Farrah, throwing her to the ground.

Justice is dealt out and your attack rebounds onto you.

You direct a crystalline golem to disrupt the flow of time around Farrah.

As a crystalline golem begins to pulse with a strange inner glow, Farrah sways 

unsteadily.

Justice is dealt out and your attack rebounds onto you.

1303h, 5997m, 24465e, 28525w ck-m3k

So done with this shit. That combo does a whopping ~500 damage standalone. 2100 rebounded.

You deserved it for hitting me!

#SweetJustice

Dunn

Technically, my golem did a majority of the actual hitting. Eh's a nice guy and doesn't afraid of anything. 

Aktillum

@Dunn I've been out of the PvP loop for a long time, so plz explain why the hell Justice is returning huge damage on that rebound? I always thought it only returned a fraction of the damage you dealt, not OMGHOLYSHIT 4x the damage. Or is Priest Justice different than Tarot Justice?

Dunn

It's been like this for a long time. Just based on my experiences, and those detailed above, it looks like it's an issue with non physical damage types. I've never nuked myself with anything but Mage. It's probably an issue with the formula for calculating return damage in those damage types. My classlead asks for a look at the formula and to consider standardizing the return damage type. 

Aktillum

Dunn said:

It's been like this for a long time. Just based on my experiences, and those detailed above, it looks like it's an issue with non physical damage types. I've never nuked myself with anything but Mage. It's probably an issue with the formula for calculating return damage in those damage types. My classlead asks for a look at the formula and to consider standardizing the return damage type. 

That makes sense. I'm asking because I remember being Monk years ago and fighting Occies, and lolling at the damage returned to me from Justice tarot (like maybe 150 - 200 dmg per hit, so like 600 dmg rebounded to me per combo, as a 16 Str Xoran).

Exelethril

I can't log in in time but did anyone classlead Stain in Apostasy? If I'm not mistaken in how it works, it guarantees a softlock on bad kelp RNG, instead of the usual kelp/bloodroot failsafe - so if you don't have tree balance, you're truelocked in the next 2.1 seconds.

Maybe 30-50% failrate?

Dunn

I didn't classlead anything because Makarios said they were on his personal list to ah... Ahem, wreck. 

Makarios

You should always classlead, more ideas are always useful.

Classleads are still open for around 5-6 hours (I closed them early by accident because I can't read apparently). Don't worry about your already endorsed/censured reports, they'll stay when we re open the endorse/censure phase tonight. But if there were things you missed, now is your chance.

Xaden

Gah!! I tried to classlead earlier and was told I couldn't l, now I'm in the pub and can't! Someone classlead seafaring ships and get a fricking aggression cool down on boarding!!

Xinna

Exelethril said:

I can't log in in time but did anyone classlead Stain in Apostasy? If I'm not mistaken in how it works, it guarantees a softlock on bad kelp RNG, instead of the usual kelp/bloodroot failsafe - so if you don't have tree balance, you're truelocked in the next 2.1 seconds.

Maybe 30-50% failrate?

Stain's bloodroot effect is a remnant from daegger puncture locking. It really has no reason to exist at all anymore. I don't think its interplay with sicken is intended. It was only added as a necessity for crappy puncture slickness, which is not used anymore.

Dunn

Makarios said:

You should always classlead, more ideas are always useful.

Classleads are still open for around 5-6 hours (I closed them early by accident because I can't read apparently). Don't worry about your already endorsed/censured reports, they'll stay when we re open the endorse/censure phase tonight. But if there were things you missed, now is your chance.

Good to know. I'll throw some in when I get home in a couple of hours. Thanks, man. 

Exelethril

The daemonite "throwing you off-balance" proc rate is fairly high too and can ruin finishing set ups / momentum kills passively. I don't think Apostates really need it as an option, given the amount of para control they have(not stopped by rebounding) along with the ability to force curseward (or get locked) to break bad kelp RNG.

I mean, they do have to sacrifice Nightmare to use it but the proc rate can get fairly obnoxious, given that it's higher than the ex-falcon's version.

Mizik

Thought that was gone. 

Reminds me of when @Crixos was good at combat and would banish nightmare, summon demonize, vigor spam on prone break.

Xinna

It used to hit like every 5 seconds and now it's like every 16 or something.

Tahquil

Makarios said:

You should always classlead, more ideas are always useful.

Classleads are still open for around 5-6 hours (I closed them early by accident because I can't read apparently). Don't worry about your already endorsed/censured reports, they'll stay when we re open the endorse/censure phase tonight. But if there were things you missed, now is your chance.

I laughed  

Asmodron

Just make BM like Shinigami from Bleach, and I will throw money at the desktop.


Shunpo Please O.O

Asmodron

(Last Bleach mention, promise)

Atalkez

Asmodron said:

(Last Bleach mention, promise)

I always viewed BrokenStar like Scatter for this reason .

Mizik

Ironic. This video, around 13:50 is how I pictured Mizik with Black Crescent. It's why I customed my longsword to pretty much be his bankai.

Atalkez

Mizik said:

Stuff

Does it make you miss BM? It does me.