Classless Discussion Q1 2016

Aquil

I feel like Alchemist is too hard to balance. If they lose paralysis they lose all forms of really hindering. I just played around on my Alchie and did testing using no paralysis truewrack and the only way I was able to do anything was by doing impatience stupidity. I got destroyed by any class (bring near every minus occie) that had paralysis. Having para wrack is just too essential it feels, and I'm at a loss what could be a good replacement. 

I feel Thoth's serpent or Apostate are in a way better place than Alchie, I wasn't able to do literally anything to them without using paralysis or I got Cath'd by Apostate or quick locked by serpent as they can't ever miss and I didn't have anything to try and slow them down (just evaded on inundate on phleg to try and get a lethargy) so I dunno, I feel like a select few are jumping on Alchemist cuz they feel out paced or can't cure properly when I see people who know what they're doing stomp on the Alchemist. Maybe slow it down or make maximum tempers but I feel Alchie needs paralysis to stay somewhat relevant or a way like Occie to put pressure while still hindering.

Dochitha

Aquil said:

I feel like Alchemist is too hard to balance. If they lose paralysis they lose all forms of really hindering. I just played around on my Alchie and did testing using no paralysis truewrack and the only way I was able to do anything was by doing impatience stupidity. I got destroyed by any class (bring near every minus occie) that had paralysis. Having para wrack is just too essential it feels, and I'm at a loss what could be a good replacement. 

I feel Thoth's serpent or Apostate are in a way better place than Alchie, I wasn't able to do literally anything to them without using paralysis or I got Cath'd by Apostate or quick locked by serpent as they can't ever miss and I didn't have anything to try and slow them down (just evaded on inundate on phleg to try and get a lethargy) so I dunno, I feel like a select few are jumping on Alchemist cuz they feel out paced or can't cure properly when I see people who know what they're doing stomp on the Alchemist. Maybe slow it down or make maximum tempers but I feel Alchie needs paralysis to stay somewhat relevant or a way like Occie to put pressure while still hindering.

You are right.

#68: Make fluid levels incurable so it will always progress (like limb damage, resets after 1 min or any timer quicker than limb damage). Make humour only inundatable after level 6, so it gives everyone a precaution it's coming, so everyone can anticipate to shield before inundate, to effectively stop the kill (like tumble off DSB, making defending alchie predictable). Since fluid no longer needs to be cured, forced choices problem matches normal aff class. And also need to speed up truewrack to 2.0-2.1s (from 2.7s) since fluid no longer takes up a cure, need not be quicker, cos there's mercury homun, need not be slower since it can be shielded (and alchie don't have 1s raze). Balanced?

Atalkez

On mobile so I can't post well.

That's not a good idea in the slightest, imo.

Wil post more when I get home! 

Antonius

Aquil said:

I feel like Alchemist is too hard to balance. If they lose paralysis they lose all forms of really hindering. I just played around on my Alchie and did testing using no paralysis truewrack and the only way I was able to do anything was by doing impatience stupidity. I got destroyed by any class (bring near every minus occie) that had paralysis. Having para wrack is just too essential it feels, and I'm at a loss what could be a good replacement. 

I feel Thoth's serpent or Apostate are in a way better place than Alchie, I wasn't able to do literally anything to them without using paralysis or I got Cath'd by Apostate or quick locked by serpent as they can't ever miss and I didn't have anything to try and slow them down (just evaded on inundate on phleg to try and get a lethargy) so I dunno, I feel like a select few are jumping on Alchemist cuz they feel out paced or can't cure properly when I see people who know what they're doing stomp on the Alchemist. Maybe slow it down or make maximum tempers but I feel Alchie needs paralysis to stay somewhat relevant or a way like Occie to put pressure while still hindering.

I'm not jumping on Alchemist because I'm outpaced or can't cure properly (my curing against alchemist isn't the best and could be a bit better, but it's really not bad). It's just a class that is boring as fuck to fight against because your options are either shield constantly while spam eating ginger or run away when humours start to get remotely high, or kill them before they can temper enough times. Those are the only options because they have paralysis AND all lock afflictions readily available AND fluid levels to punish you. They can already punish choosing to drop fluids (which you have to do) by locking you with truewrack, there's no reason to be constantly paralysed when you're inevitably forced into doing it.

I dislike lethargy as a replacement for paralysis because it's very much the same as paralysis in terms of shutting down offense - sort of forcing the same choice as paralysis. Want to attack (at a level of effectiveness that actually does something)? Have to cure lethargy. Want to not die? Have to cure lock afflictions and humours - but only for classes that rely on physical balance. If alchemist loses paralysis then it should also lose the bonuses for truewrack speed based on using afflictions corresponding to the humours you've tempered, and the speed with those bonuses should just be the base truewrack speed.

Removing paralysis might not be the solution, but something definitely has to change. A class that forces frequent running or extended periods of DOR TOUCH SHIELD is really, really badly designed.

@Dochitha That doesn't solve the problem at all. You haven't changed the way that alchemist works at all, or really how you fight it, you've just made high level inundates unavoidable through curing choices. If you can't cure fluids, what exactly does touching shield accomplish for you? You're not protecting yourself against some short period where they can inundate, like tumbling after limb breaks (which you can cure once they happen). As soon as you hit 6+ on a humour they can inundate at any point in the next minute (assuming they don't temper it again), and they can educe iron/temper to continue to reset that timer. Maybe if tempers on an already max level humour didn't reset the timer, and humours that had been tempered to max level reset after a few seconds (so that there's a short period in which you have to go defensive or die), you'd have a workable proposal.

Aegoth

This is something that @Penwize brought up on a clan, that I think is a solid question: Why is overwhelming affliction momentum lauded, while damage momentum is shunned?

- 2016/03/27 18:24:16 - Penwize says, "The only thing I really agree with there is that damage 

momentum classes ARE kinda gone (except DWB and Sylvan), which is a bit of ashame. It's always 

struck me as weird how people are okay with affliction momentum being untankable, but not okay with 

damage momentum being untankable."

- 2016/03/27 18:25:35 - Penwize says, "Yeah I don't understand why damage momentum is somehow 

inferior to or less acceptable than affliction momentum."

- 2016/03/27 18:30:22 - Aegoth says, "Because people think it takes more "skill" to push 1 button 

while a venom tracker does the rest for them, I guess."

- 2016/03/27 18:30:59 - Penwize says, "Maybe, but then why is Sylvan hammered when their damage 

momentum comes from an aff tracker? lol."

- 2016/03/27 18:31:59 - Aegoth says, "Probably because they're the only class that can do that right 

now. Instead of buffing everyone else, they just want to get rid of that."

- 2016/03/27 18:32:15 - Penwize says, "Bard does too, they gain damage from aff stacking."

- 2016/03/27 18:32:23 - Aegoth says, "I'd totally go for a buff to ye olde magi damage."

- 2016/03/27 18:32:54 - Penwize says, "Difference is bard isn't tied to a single room like Sylvan is,

 so bard's actually more dangerous there."

- 2016/03/27 18:33:18 - Tiamat says, "How is bard not tied to a room, or you just mean groves?"

- 2016/03/27 18:33:38 - Penwize says, "Bard can move their harms if they need to."

- 2016/03/27 18:33:47 - Penwize says, "Sylvan can't move their AP, they need to restart from scratch 

every room."

- 2016/03/27 18:33:48 - Tiamat says, "But it screws up the momentum."

- 2016/03/27 18:34:06 - Penwize says, "Bard can also continue without harms if they're almost done."

- 2016/03/27 18:34:10 - Tiamat says, "But i see what you mean."

- 2016/03/27 18:35:43 - Penwize says, "I feel like 90% of people's problems with Sylvan would be 

solved if they just accept that you have to sometimes defend vs Sylvan, just like every other 

momentum class."

- 2016/03/27 18:36:30 - Penwize says, "When you ask someone how to fight Serpent, everyone says 

"shield on snap.""

- 2016/03/27 18:37:01 - Penwize says, "So why isn't "leave the room on AP gain" the response for 

Sylvans? Shuts them down just as much."

- 2016/03/27 18:37:07 - Aegoth says, "Even that doesn't work all the time."

- 2016/03/27 18:37:17 - Aegoth says, "Fucking serpents."

- 2016/03/27 18:37:29 - Penwize says, "Well, yeah, serpent can fake that out or snap at different 

times."

- 2016/03/27 18:37:34 - Penwize says, "Sylvan's pretty well telegraphed."

Thoughts? (don't nitpick about my opinion. I'm sick and hungry)

Kiet

Because afflictions take at least -some- clue.

Also, Sylvan would have that as a valid answer if they didn't max ap in 10 seconds lol. Penwize is a bit biased with his classes, sadly, as much as I like him!

Amranu

You noobs, Alchemist is fine. l2focus spam.

Tael

Several of the blademaster classleads are so frustrating to read.

There's a classlead about compasslash suggesting it's basically useless when it's actually completely essential to getting double breaks without having to do wonky stance-switching stuff that's far, far more complicated.

People think that there's no possible way to get double breaks without having a limbcounter and doing a ton of testing, which is completely wrong - you can figure out the appropriate count with a single test break.

Aegoth

Kiet said:

Because afflictions take at least -some- clue.

Also, Sylvan would have that as a valid answer if they didn't max ap in 10 seconds lol. Penwize is a bit biased with his classes, sadly, as much as I like him!

I agree on Sylvan, yes. I -do- however feel that he might be justified in his claim that aff momentum shouldn't be inherently superior to damage just because "it takes -some- clue". There are many ways to bring back damage classes without it being DOR HOUND/WARP or whatever. I'd love to see damage classes make a comeback (being a damage class myself), so that health pressure is just as oppressive as the pressure of affliction classes

Kiet

Things that are easy and require no clue should be less potent than things that take some clue, not sure what to tell you. In all of Achaea's history, not a single damage class has been remotely complex except fancy knight tricks (and they're using affs).

Alrena

Kiet said:

Because afflictions take at least -some- clue.

Also, Sylvan would have that as a valid answer if they didn't max ap in 10 seconds lol. Penwize is a bit biased with his classes, sadly, as much as I like him!

Maybe that was true in the past, but I don't agree that damage classes/momentum take less of a clue, especially when afflictions are quite often an important part in building up this momentum for that damage burst. Nowadays with venom trackers, some more advanced than others,...

I think Aegoth's point is more that people go "This is ridiculous!" when they get hit by an 80% damage attack fifteen seconds in the fight and die, but then congratulate someone for truelocking them in the same amount of time, or less. 

Not saying Sylvan can't use a few nerfs. Having fought Sylvans plenty of times myself, I'd say slowing down AP gain and reducing overcharge damage should make it fine. The main issue is that they build AP too fast, forcing you to avoid one impending death after another, sometimes just ten seconds apart. Slow down AP and let's see where Sylvan is after that!

Atalkez

Dochitha said:

Ideas

I don't think you're considering what this would do to group combat, if you made this change. Making them incurable would completely change how the class operates, and what it can do, how it interacts with others - and is basically an entire re-work of the class. Shouldn't need that!

I don't even think paralysis is bad to have for the class, the only real issue that I see is the speed at which alchie can paralyse. Really it's never a good idea to prio humours (which is different than other affliction classes(not occie), in that their non-para aff at some point can be prioritized to set back their offense) except for behind shield spam for 40s to rotate between the afflictions and the humours. That's not fun for anyone involved, imo.

Aegoth said:

More Ideas

The main difference in this that I see, is that most affliction setups have some form of counter/curing set that you can use to stall them really well - whereas most damage is pretty much static, can't be defended over the course of the fight (see: former monk 35-40% prep combos), and once you get prone, most classes can only really tumble to avoid it. There are a few with prone defenses, that of course, have drawbacks and requirements of their own.

The damage meta really lends itself to a buy-to-succeed situation, where someone with level 3s can two-shot someone with nothing, regardless of level/skills invested. I just think it's really really uninteresting and not fun to play/fight against. LOLSMASH is boring. 

Aegoth

Atalkez said:

Stuff

Good point, though I still think that a lot of affliction classes right now have very overwhelming pressure, as opposed to their prep counterparts. Could be toned down a bit.

Kiet

Momentum classes require big pressure, otherwise prep is 5000x better, instead of just a bit better.

Penwize

Atalkez said:

The main difference in this that I see, is that most affliction setups have some form of counter/curing set that you can use to stall them really well - whereas most damage is pretty much static, can't be defended over the course of the fight (see: former monk 35-40% prep combos), and once you get prone, most classes can only really tumble to avoid it. There are a few with prone defenses, that of course, have drawbacks and requirements of their own.

I disagree with this actually.  I mean, you can't counter or stall Alchemist, Occultist or Serpent momentum just by curing.  Sure, you can slow it down a little bit by curing properly, but if you stand in the room and don't defend, their momentum will catch you and kill you.  That's true of damage too, really.  The only difference I see is, one requires an affliction tracker, and the other just requires an alias.  I'd really like to see damage classes be made more interesting, and given damage momentum complexity on par with affliction momentum complexity.  Some classes already do this actually, like Bard's scaling damage with mental afflictions or Sylvan's AP ramping.

Exelethril

2H, guise

Kiet

Sylvan's AP ramping is a pretty low bar to set for 'complexity'. Also, yeah, EVENTUALLY if you just stand in a room with momentum classes you'll fall irrevocably behind, but good curing makes this 'eventually' come much later than bad curing. You can't cure damage better.

Penwize

Actually yeah, 2H is a good example too of using damage pressure for momentum.  More things like that would be interesting too.

Exelethril

Kiet said:

Sylvan's AP ramping is a pretty low bar to set for 'complexity'. Also, yeah, EVENTUALLY if you just stand in a room with momentum classes you'll fall irrevocably behind, but good curing makes this 'eventually' come much later than bad curing. You can't cure damage better.

You technically can but it will require a sizeable digital representation of multiple pieces of paper minted by the treasury of the US of A, delivered via encrypted data terminals and after authorization of authenticity by the two parties involved.

Atalkez

Penwize said:

Atalkez said:

The main difference in this that I see, is that most affliction setups have some form of counter/curing set that you can use to stall them really well - whereas most damage is pretty much static, can't be defended over the course of the fight (see: former monk 35-40% prep combos), and once you get prone, most classes can only really tumble to avoid it. There are a few with prone defenses, that of course, have drawbacks and requirements of their own.

I disagree with this actually.  I mean, you can't counter or stall Alchemist, Occultist or Serpent momentum just by curing.  Sure, you can slow it down a little bit by curing properly, but if you stand in the room and don't defend, their momentum will catch you and kill you.  That's true of damage too, really.  The only difference I see is, one requires an affliction tracker, and the other just requires an alias.  I'd really like to see damage classes be made more interesting, and given damage momentum complexity on par with affliction momentum complexity.  Some classes already do this actually, like Bard's scaling damage with mental afflictions or Sylvan's AP ramping.

Your options for defense vs affliction classes are much more plentiful than your options versus damage classes.

By no means is it required to automate your offenses. I play 2 classes primarily as affliction classes, and I duel in Dragon without tracking a single affliction. It's not hard to throw some highlights together and learn to keep up with the rhythm of movements.

It's hard to balance damage while keeping everyone relevant that wants to play the game. It's not fun to get railroaded, and it discourages people. It's a lot easier to read a log, and see where I could have cured <x> instead of <y>, and lived - that to read a log that the only thing you could have done is tumbled .2s earlier. More options, is more interesting!

Aegoth

Hate to say it, but right now, playing Occie/Apo/Serpent is basically railroading your opponent. Difference is that people are somehow OK with this type of railroading, but not the other. It's a double standard that I think undermines aff classes v. prep classes

Penwize

Atalkez said:

It's hard to balance damage while keeping everyone relevant that wants to play the game. It's not fun to get railroaded, and it discourages people. It's a lot easier to read a log, and see where I could have cured <x> instead of <y>, and lived - that to read a log that the only thing you could have done is tumbled .2s earlier. More options, is more interesting!

That's not true if damage is percent based rather than flat, but still that's the reason why I said Bard, Sylvan or 2H are good examples of a damage momentum or pressure.  For some reason, whenever people hear damage, they just think "lol lean on bashing combo" which is ... really not true, or what I'm talking about.

Kiet

Aegoth said:

Hate to say it, but right now, playing Occie/Apo/Serpent is basically railroading your opponent. Difference is that people are somehow OK with this type of railroading, but not the other. It's a double standard that I think undermines aff classes v. prep classes

You only think this because you are by your own admission not great at understanding aff combat.

Alrena

I don't agree with that type of thinking either. There are options to avoid and minimise damage. A strategic shield, leaving the room for a moment, breaking a limb and proning to catch a breather, sticking clumsy/lethargy,... 

It's also not so different to shield/leave on snap/daegger hunt/... 

FOR ONCE I agree with @Aegoth on this. People are somehow okay with being railroaded or stomped by aff pressure, but damage is not okay. Quite likely because damage can be increased and minimized by arties, where affs can't be minimized by arties (but the pressure can be ramped up, see thoth's fang).

Kiet

Penwize said:

Atalkez said:

It's hard to balance damage while keeping everyone relevant that wants to play the game. It's not fun to get railroaded, and it discourages people. It's a lot easier to read a log, and see where I could have cured <x> instead of <y>, and lived - that to read a log that the only thing you could have done is tumbled .2s earlier. More options, is more interesting!

That's not true if damage is percent based rather than flat, but still that's the reason why I said Bard, Sylvan or 2H are good examples of a damage momentum or pressure.  For some reason, whenever people hear damage, they just think "lol lean on bashing combo" which is ... really not true, or what I'm talking about.

If it's % based it's still affected by arties (see kai choke/crush) on both sides.

Penwize

Kiet said:

If it's % based it's still affected by arties (see kai choke/crush) on both sides.

Sure, and aff classes are affected by arties on only one side (the offensive side), via things like diadem, tfang, shaman's curse skull, etc?  Not really sure what your point is here?

Kiet

The shaman arty is irrelevant, and almost everyone agrees the arty-less aff classes are better for a reason. There's also no requirement of arties to survive, like there is vs damage. You're purposefully ignoring all the ways it's not a good comparison.

Penwize

How is the shaman swiftcurse pendant irrelevant, and what affliction classes are arty-less?  Pretty sure every affliction class right now either uses diadem, has a class-specific augment of some kind, or uses an artefact weapon.  Only exception I can think of is dragon, and its affliction route right now is uh ... dismal.


I'm not sure what you mean when you say I'm ignoring all the ways it's not a good comparison?  I mean, do you require artefacts to survive against bards or 2h knights?

Kiet

Because no shaman actually thinks it does very much for the class? The way swiftcurse works now the pendant is not going to affect anything.

You're also wrong: apostate, alchemist, shaman, jester have no offensive arties at all.

Also, at least until accentato got recently nerfed you definitely needed arties to survive an artied bard just mashing accentato, so...

Penwize

Hm, I thought alchemist was EQ, so I was wrong about that one.  I'll grant you apostate doesn't really have much,  yeah.  Shaman's artie boosts its overall speed by around 7%, which isn't much, yeah, but helps I guess?  Jester can use artie handaxes to speed up its juggling delivery a bunch, though I haven't fought a good one in so long I'm not even sure if that's very helpful these days.