Are Houses Worth the Trouble?

Mishgul

Azor said:

Hmm, did I simply "let the problem take care of itself"? Not how I remember it. The "extra requirements" were imposed by Carmain, who my char isn't just going to flatly overrule in his dealings with a subordinate. Carmain is the former HL, Dread Ecclesiarch, former Tyrannus, etc etc. So though I nominally outrank him in the House, it wouldn't have made much sense to do more than offer my opinion (which is what I did), unless Carmain were doing something truly heinous and unacceptable.

And the other thing is, you know, Carmain is an extremely good combatant, and it's a privilege to have him teach you stuff, have him be so set on teaching you stuff, in fact, that he won't pass you on the combat req for what he (with his presumably higher standards) thinks of as sub-par.

I wouldn't have done the requirements I gave her, if I had to go back and was given them now. I wasn't testing her combat ability, I wasn't expecting her combat ability to improve at that stage judging from what I had seen. If she had done the requirements I had set her, I would have given her more. I was waiting for her to do something else to pass her. I am cruel yes.

Wynedere

Purposely keeping house mates from advancing is one reason why requirements suck. Sorry Carmain, you're a great guy. But, in light of what you just typed, that was a shitty thing to do, and it totally screwed with where I wanted to take her. Carmain was one of the head dogs in Shaitan's order. I knew she had no chance of joining after I talked to Nizaris about it all.

You freely admit that had you been given the requirements you gave her, you wouldn't have done them. Why would you give them to someone else unless you were purposely attempting to make them quit? This is why players should -not- have such free reign in org leadership. It's probably why guilds were deleted.

Mishgul

If you had told me you didn't want to do them, I would have just passed you on what you did. But you didn't say anything to Carmain. 

Wynedere

As a slave, she couldn't just tell her mentor that she didn't want to do them. That would have been horrible RP. Hell, I had a hard time trying to come up with a good RP reason to talk to Nizaris about it. What little foundation I had was sketchy. It is unreasonable to expect a char RPing a slave to do that.

Mishgul

it is. But rising from a slave requires initiative.

Wynedere

Either you want slaves willing to blindly follow orders or not. Sending mixed messages about the idea of slavery according to Mhaldorian standards makes no sense to me.

Mishgul

hey, you wanted to serve under Carmain. I did warn you I was tough and unorthodox. At least I hope I did.

Tirac

Generally speaking in regards to houses being worthwhile, you will get what you put in. If you want to coast through house requirements by doing the bare minimum and sit at HR5 forever, that's fine, and that's what you'll get back. If you want to get rewarding interaction with the interesting people that are a part of your house, you'll have to put in some effort and show that you're serious.

In your specific case, I don't know the details of why you jumped ship, but you told me at several points that you wanted to get more involved and you wanted to join an order. In Mhaldor, this means distinguishing yourself from an already exceptional group of citizens. I have no idea what your mentor's intentions were, but someone who wants that level of involvement needs to show that they are serious about it and not just some alt who's going to change city next week. Everyone wants to be able to join a new group and be instantly involved and ingratiated in the group, but that isn't realistic. Literally anyone can distinguish themselves, particularly in a city like Mhaldor, but it does require more than the bare minimum effort.

Personally, I was disappointed that Wynedere left the city. Your character seemed driven, interested, and interesting. Yes, Mhaldor isn't as easy as Ashtan probably was, but that's the price you pay. Someone like you could have done well here.

Tvistor

Can not tell if Carmain is trolling or not. Will assume so. There is a big difference between 'initiative' and 'insubordination'. If I told one of my Dreadborn to practice combat, and they said "I don't want to." instead of a reasonable excuse like "I don't have the skills to do so yet." I would probably see them cast from the House.

Err, thought I should edit and put down a disclaimer saying I probably don't know everything about the situation. What I've seen on this page definitely looks bad out of context, though.

Thaumas

I think it says much that mostly Mhaldorian players are involved in this thread.

I dare any veteran player to survive Druid house until full membership. Double dare.

Tvistor

It's mostly Mhaldorian players because it opened with a shot at the Congregation, intentional or not.

Wynedere

If the Congregation encourages this sort of behavior from its mentors, which by the way are required to have, then the shot was well earned.

Tvistor

It certainly doesn't encourage it at all. Just ten minutes ago I was discussing with someone how stupid the situation seems, but we're going to reserve judgement until we know all the facts. The general consensus is that it's all right to expect a slave to object (even that is questionable) to a requirement as pointless as 'Count every grain of sand on a beach.'. Expecting them to object to sparring, which is a reasonable request, is silly. Even more so when objecting is the only way to advance.

On the other hand, some also feel you didn't hang in for long enough. I will shoot you a message in a bit.

Nim

@Thaumas: I think one of my friends played Achaea back in the days of guilds, tried to be a druid, and promptly gave up on the game.

Mannimar

There have been times when I give a protege an HR5 task when they're HR3. This, of course, counts towards their eventual HR5 reqs, but it also is a show of my confidence in the character and my opinion on what they are capable of. 

The more difficult the extra task a mentor provides you, the more they want to see you become something.

The more tedious and boring an extra task is... they're just chasing you off.

Mishgul

Thaumas said:

I think it says much that mostly Mhaldorian players are involved in this thread.

I dare any veteran player to survive Druid house until full membership. Double dare.

i've done this three times. (and quit twice)

Synbios

Thaumas said:

I dare any veteran player to survive Druid Guild until full membership. Double dare.

Delphinus

Thaumas said:

I think it says much that mostly Mhaldorian players are involved in this thread.

I dare any veteran player to survive Druid house until full membership. Double dare.

Synbios said:

Thaumas said:

I dare any veteran player to survive Druid Guild until full membership. Double dare.

Been down that road. I don't recommend it.

Anatral

Thaumas said:

I dare any veteran player to survive Druid house until full membership. Double dare.

I've heard they've got a sassy new HL that's shaking things up.

Try not to freak out at the concept of change in a forestal org.


Edit: Grr autocorrect

Delphinus

Anatral said:

Thaumas said:

I dare any veteran player to survive Druid house until full membership. Double dare.

I've heard they've got a sassy new HL that's shaking things up. Try not to freak out at the concept of change in a forestal org. Edit: Grr autocorrect

Actually, it's more a freakout at the lack of change.

but let's not make this a druid thread aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Tvistor

On topic, I just spoke briefly to Wynedere and it would appear he had a horribly boring mentor-protege relationship. The new BC reqs place a high focus on them, so ouch.

Delphinus

To post more on-topic: An org can only be qualified by what it gives to the game. Are houses worth the trouble? It depends on the house.

Mishgul

Some thigns are better left IC

Tvistor

I think the issue here is that slaves are not supposed to argue, and expecting an (intelligent) slave to reject a task is stupid.

Vasool

TL;DR (rule # 1) be Evil, (rule # 2) be differently Evil to different people

I know that Vasool would try to tailor the questions and requirements for each examination to the individual.  Many of these were done to intentionally trick the unwary student into making the wrong move, or answering incorrectly. 

To be fair, I never failed anyone for screwing up on the trick questions; they were mostly designed to ferret out those people who had above average critical thinking skills and could surprise me with an appropriate response.

Also, depending on the individual I would tailor specific requirements. Novices/newbies would get a pretty straightforward interview "by the book," while more experienced players were given very different tasks unexpectedly.

In the end, it was an opportunity to teach, to RP, and to really get to know the aspiring knights by gauging both their skills and their mindsets.

Mostly, I felt it was important to scare the student into thinking each question could be the one they fail on; this made the sense of achievement of passing that much more real and cherished, I believe.

ETA: I'm certain many more people in Mhaldor feel exactly the same way. That is, making the experience of Evil one to remember. My vote goes in the lot that houses are an important part of Achaean culture because of this.

Wynedere

There should, at least, be a checks and balances system put in place in every house/city to avoid things like this. Rank doesn't matter when the situation is unreasonably handled. Established and well liked player or not, people are not perfect and crap like this can kill an org. Of course, it might have just been an isolated incident. Personally, I don't think that it had anything to do with whether she said she didn't want to complete the requirements or not. I believe, and I might be wrong, that he oocly didn't want her in the house or city.

People asked why I didn't give it longer to work itself out. This is why. It quickly started to become obvious that it was more of an ooc issue than anything she did icly. Therefore, no amount of time would have mattered as long as the house leadership was not willing to grow a pair and step up. The previous few posts confirmed what I had already suspected to begin with. Attempting to say that she was expected to argue with a superior about a direct order when she was a slave is a staggeringly poor excuse. It makes so little sense that it rings of falsehood.

In typing all that, I strongly feel that even in a dictatorship, a checks and balances system would be very beneficial for those times in which people are excessively wrong.  

Tarkanian

A check and balances for a dictatorship? Isn't a dictatorship supposed to favor only those of high position/regard, regardless of whether they are excessively wrong?

I'm not pretending to know the entire situation here, but my take on this is: if said person of high regard doesn't want you, the slave/peon/maggot, I think it's your job to prove them wrong. And then do the same to other slaves/peons/maggots in the future.

In short: great chance for RP.

Wynedere

That would possibly work in an entirely IC situation. But when there is no IC basis to justify actions of the superior, you can't really do anything ICly about it.  

Tarkanian

I don't think there is a need for superiors to have IC basis. I mean, you don't see, read or hear about a slavemasters showing active and heartwarming support to slaves, right? They are perfectly within their powers and legal rights to flat out show disdain for their slaves, regardless of their OOC inclinations.

The thing is, they can always justify it as them being hardasses, or challenging the slaves, but the onus remains with the slave to show that they can hack it.

Sherazad

Wynedere said:

That would possibly work in an entirely IC situation. But when there is no IC basis to justify actions of the superior, you can't really do anything ICly about it.  

That's a stretch. In Ebon Fist, we have been able to work against highly-ranked, difficult people for more than one instance. 

While being in Ebon Fist made me stay with one main for good and it's where I definitely feel that houses are worth it, the discussion seems to have gone off-tangent. It's probably better if the OP made another thread about how higher ups' actions affect novice retention or whatever.