Are Houses Worth the Trouble?

Wynedere

Stemming from the thread about house requirements, I decided to get the general take on houses.

Personally, I find them all to be rather tedious. The benefits do not outweigh the effort required to reach them. For example, while in the Congregation, I was having to pay outsiders to learn most of my skills. Advancement was hindered by added requirements in addition to those listed in the house help files. This resulted in extreme frustration on my end, and eventual departure when coupled with other factors. The sheer amount of requirements one is expected to complete is usually mind-boggling (in most houses).

Given the large amount of requirements, what do houses actually have to offer members that encourage them to stay? House credits are understandably limited. RP and atmosphere can be decent, though in no way balances out the hoop-jumping most houses require.

Achaea highly encourages house membership for newbies, along with more established players. I'm wondering if there would be far fewer rogues if the negative aspects (requirements) were given an in-depth look at by the admin. Obviously, the players (most, not all) can't get it reasonable. I normally wouldn't encourage admin involvement in player-run areas. But, it could definitely help with this particular issue that Achaea has.

As a note, I've never had a character long in any house at all. Most of the reason revolves around requirements. Cities aren't as bad, as there are usually no requirements. Being a rogue seeps the fun out of Achaea, and generally results in my taking long periods of dormancy. This tells me that, as a player, I'd rather just go dormant than be exposed to house requirements, etc.

Do you, as a playerbase, see anything wrong with house requirements? If so, is there anything that we can do about it?

I'll freely admit that the problem might just be with me and my personal distaste for performing countless acts in a game that aren't fun. Though, I have heard the same from some other players.

 

[Deleted User]

I see it as a problem of engagement. Vayne said something about getting novices involved from the start and I agree. As of right now, no house can really answer the question of why novices should become full members; novices are left to complete tasks that offer no real reward, satisfaction, or further engagement.

Jonathin

There don't need to be tangible rewards to joining a House. It should fit your RP to do so. Tangible rewards are fringe benefits. Houses are there to make things easier for novices, but they are there also a role play device to come together with a group that is more focused than a city. 

My opinion is that if someone doesn't want to complete a set of rather easy requirements, they really shouldn't be looking for a House. As I said above, Houses are more focused than cities and the requirements are in place to prepare you for a future in that House.

[Deleted User]

By reward, I meant via RP. When choosing a house, players are going to go for the one that sounds most appealing. If I join the Naga, for example, it would be because of the promise of espionage, assassinations, and warping across the continent to complete missions vital in advancing Evil. Naturally, they won't be doing that at the start, but without any kind of proof that the house's claims are genuine, the novice will only be wasting their time.

What we have now is a novice aide saying, "Welcome. Do these requirements and you'll get to do the cool stuff you read about, maybe." What we could have are novice aides sending novices out on missions that make them feel that they, too, are contributing in some way to the house's goal. Maybe even do so while incorporating a class's skills, even if it's a small activity the novice can do completely on their own. Give them a taste of what they came for, while enticing them to continue.

That said, I understand that people get burned out from dealing with novices and disheartened when their efforts at spicing things up are wasted when a newbie leaves or suicides. It's a sad cycle, though, when novice aides half-heartedly help novices and novices feel like they're doing all this for nothing.

Beya

I should point out the Congregation system is currently going through a massive overhaul, and it'd be great for you to contact @Nizaris directly with your suggestions for improvements.

As far as I understand it, the requirements have been split into smaller parts now to look less monolithic.

The reason for house tasks is to teach players about the history of the house and give players common ground to interact on. Much like school, you don't appreciate what you're learning until you've learned it.

Beya

Aina said:

"What we have now is a novice aide saying, "Welcome. Do these requirements and you'll get to do the cool stuff you read about, maybe." What we could have are novice aides sending novices out on missions that make them feel that they, too, are contributing in some way to the house's goal. Maybe even do so while incorporating a class's skills, even if it's a small activity the novice can do completely on their own. Give them a taste of what they came for, while enticing them to continue."

I do this with my novices in the CIJ. The best, absolute best thing about novices is the jobs that you can get done by employing them to do menial tasks like deliver bombs, prank letters or digging up deserts.

Jhaeli

I genuinely mean this with no disrespect intended, but I do get the impression from your posts that these are issues that you yourself are having trouble with more than it being as large of a problem as you imply. Not that you're the only one with these problems, but it also brings up alternative questions in response - such as whether everyone should be in a House long-term or whether having rogues is really a bad thing. (It isn't, imho.) You also freely admit that you've never really been in a House for very long - which suggests that you either a) haven't found the right House or b) aren't really giving Houses a chance.

I think there is less of an issue with requirements these days (particularly as the trend seems to be in favour of loosening restrictions since Autoclass and Houses were implemented) and, as @Aina mentions, more of an issue with engaging new players. Part of that issue is finding ways to make older players want to engage with younger players.** Dealing with novices can be incredibly frustrating and incredibly rewarding at the same time. And, as I've said in another thread, those players who are often willing to take on responsibilities like novice aiding are also usually ones who take on other responsibilities - which can take up a fair chunk of your playing time in a day. Others who don't want to bother to help novices end up dumping or leaving it for these players and they inevitably become jaded and stressed over it, wanting to move on to new experiences but unable to help but feel responsible (or join those who just don't do them anymore, leaving it for the next player to stress over.)

Is this the novice's fault? Absolutely not. However, I also know that most just don't end up staying for a wide variety of reasons beyond how someone interacted with them in their orientation or while working through early requirements. And sometimes, you don't want them to stick around because that particular House just isn't the right fit - or maybe no House is the right fit and they're just happier being a citizen of a city without a House. I can't say that I have any particular solutions for this cycle admittedly but I don't think that eliminating requirements is one of them.

As to the specific benefits, I think that's something that everyone needs to find on their own because different people get different benefits. Some enjoy the social aspect of a community, some enjoy the roleplay, some enjoy the goals they are given as members. Some of us really, really enjoy the requirements because they give us a sense of accomplishment. (I was probably more excited the day Jhaeli was knighted than when she was made Imperiate, for example.)

tl;dr - Requirements aren't the problem, particularly as they seem to be getting easier over the years. Lack of engagement and lack of effort on the part of both novice aides AND novices can result in a bad experience, but there's no real easy solutions to fix this that I'm aware of at the moment.

**Obviously, by older/younger I'm not referring to OOC age.

Idelisa

I think your question is really complicated and of it really and truly depends on your personality, what you hope to get out of the game, and the options available to you.  For example, my alt is in Cyrene and an Alchemist.  The only House option is Kindred.  So... just NOT happening.  From everything I've heard they have no direction or mission other than an extension of the snuggleumpkinville that is Cyrene.   So clearly she's houseless, and if she were able to be a part of one that was a bit more serious, then I would definitely reconsider.  

On the flip side, with Idelisa my goal is to help... so even though the Sylvan House is her only option, it's infinitely better than the alternative.  Sure, I can help as a rogue, but not quite so easily - considering, as you said, novices really are pushed into Houses. 

However, I do think that Houses as a whole should re-evaluate the things that aren't working for them, especially if there is an exceptionally high turnover.  But I think a lot of this could be helped with true Patron involvement... you know, if we hadn't killed off all the gods and junk.

Rinzai

Houses are incredibly great for completely new players. When I first started I am almost positive that I would have quit playing with out the structure of a house that gave me instant friends and an instant direction that I could take Rinzai.

Problems with houses that I see or have had.
1) people join houses just to circumvent the 50 hours level 50 limit for embracing, so it's frustrating to have to do orientation after orientation/interview after invterview for someone to just quit.
2) class limitations, these can be good, but as stated above Alchemist and Kindred might not mix well, or you would have to force it.

my only rant is people say "I don't want to do the work, it interferes with my desire to RP" I call shenanigans on that, good RP is not defined by doing only what you want it's doing what your character would do. sure writing papers insanely sucks, but I've also had great experiences and learned a lot from it. So like most things in the realms, outside of the limitations, it is what you make of it.

Jhaeli

Idelisa said:

From everything I've heard they have no direction or mission other than an extension of the snuggleumpkinville that is Cyrene.

I don't know how Cyrene's reputation for being the "Snuggleville" has exploded so greatly over the last little while since I last played seriously (and it frustrates the hell outta me), but Cyrene is (or was) also home to some of the best roleplayers in the game - and joining a House is, frankly, one of the best ways to find them. Listening to the gossip versus, say, talking to one of their higher ranked members to actually find out what their direction and mission is could potentially be robbing you of a rather rewarding experience, even if you don't actually end up joining. Just a thought.

Idelisa

Heh... nevermind.  I'll pass.

Rovelda

And do Houses need new players for something? 

Jiraishin

We need them so they became older players and established House members.

Jovora

I think the problem is with yourself Wynedere, and not Houses in general. Though I'll definitely agree that the Congregation requirements are a little bit excessive.

Also, Cyrene is a hell of a lot less 'Snuggleville' than Eleusis is.

Sultani

I found many of them pretty overwhelming in general as a true novice but one thing I think really works well is the mentoring system. If you can find that one other player who you feel completely comfortble asking questions and having in-depth discussions with, it goes a long way. So many house novices are alts who just fly through the ranks I think it makes the true novice feel like they are not getting it fast enough or are underachieving.

Wynedere

I already stated that some of the problem could be me. By me, I mean what I personally find fun/rewarding. To me, completing three thousand sets of requirements is not fun, by any means. I want to get out there and -do- something exciting. Houses don't seem to be my cup of tea. I didn't play when guilds were here, but I'm sure I wouldn't have been playing at all if the requirements were worse, heh.

Keep in mind, however, that there are others who feel the same about pages upon pages of requirements.  

Wynedere

Jonathin said:

There don't need to be tangible rewards to joining a House. It should fit your RP to do so. Tangible rewards are fringe benefits. Houses are there to make things easier for novices, but they are there also a role play device to come together with a group that is more focused than a city. 

My opinion is that if someone doesn't want to complete a set of rather easy requirements, they really shouldn't be looking for a House. As I said above, Houses are more focused than cities and the requirements are in place to prepare you for a future in that House.

It isn't that the tasks are particularly hard, though some can certainly be. I.E memorizing every cure along with afflictions springs to mind, especially now with a new set of cures. These tasks are usually repetition and excessively boring.

A huge thing to remember here is that two cities in particular require house membership to be citizens of the cities. Namely, Mhaldor and I think Eleusis. If Eleusis no longer requires house membership, oops. Focusing on Mhaldor, you can't have your character actively involved in "evil" without being a citizen of Mhaldor. Which is fine. Except, to be a citizen of Mhaldor, your char must be a member of one of its houses. Rogues are pretty much cut off from one of the major factions of the game if they don't want to complete house requirements, which are often ridiculous.

Maht

Wynedere said:

Jonathin said:

There don't need to be tangible rewards to joining a House. It should fit your RP to do so. Tangible rewards are fringe benefits. Houses are there to make things easier for novices, but they are there also a role play device to come together with a group that is more focused than a city. 

My opinion is that if someone doesn't want to complete a set of rather easy requirements, they really shouldn't be looking for a House. As I said above, Houses are more focused than cities and the requirements are in place to prepare you for a future in that House.

It isn't that the tasks are particularly hard, though some can certainly be. I.E memorizing every cure along with afflictions springs to mind, especially now with a new set of cures. These tasks are usually repetition and excessively boring.

Every house should have you do this, and if they don't then you should want to do it for yourself.

Wynedere

Sure, I'd be glad to do something like that for irl school. But, for an online game?

Jiraishin

"Rogue" and "Mhaldorian" don't really go together. If you think that you are entitled to be part of that particular faction without obeying your superiors and their seemingly unreasonable orders, you probably don't belong in that faction.

House reqs, particularly at the newbie level, can be quite boring. They have to be testable and/or quantifiable and they are meant to teach people things they need to know. There was going to be more this post but I'm busy watching gods die and I'm never going to finish it.

Maht

Wynedere said:

Sure, I'd be glad to do something like that for irl school. But, for an online game?

I understand it can be construed as tedious, but I feel it is required knowledge. I can understand how some people may not feel the same, especially because one can HELP CURELIST or whatever whenever they want. I suppose it depends on what you are interested in doing in the game, which is the beauty of it I guess.

Antidas

Wynedere said:

It isn't that the tasks are particularly hard, though some can certainly be. I.E memorizing every cure along with afflictions springs to mind, especially now with a new set of cures. These tasks are usually repetition and excessively boring.

A huge thing to remember here is that two cities in particular require house membership to be citizens of the cities. Namely, Mhaldor and I think Eleusis. If Eleusis no longer requires house membership, oops. Focusing on Mhaldor, you can't have your character actively involved in "evil" without being a citizen of Mhaldor. Which is fine. Except, to be a citizen of Mhaldor, your char must be a member of one of its houses. Rogues are pretty much cut off from one of the major factions of the game if they don't want to complete house requirements, which are often ridiculous.

Without trying to be a prick, I gotta say, its not ridiculous at all. We are allowed to run our faction how we want, and it has always been that to be part of the Evil faction, you had to join Mhaldor. One of the things that makes Mhaldor stand out from the other cities, and imo, makes it seem much more hierarchical/disciplined, is that the houses of Mhaldor are not completely separate organizations from the city they reside in, as all the other houses are. If you want to join the faction, you gotta join the city and whichever house your class fits into. I see no reason we should start allowing rogues to join the Evil faction just because they dont want to play by the same rules the rest of us do.

As for the requirements themselves, I have admittedly never played a character in the Congregation, so I dont know exactly what their requirements are like. However, I have done the Naga and Ebon Fist requirements at one point or another, as well as a number of other non-Mhaldorian houses. I've never had any real problem with them. Doing the requirements is, as far as i'm concerned, part of the RP. I've never come across a requirement that I found to be both incredibly boring -and- that took me over 10-15 minutes to do. I'm not the biggest fan of writing essays, but generally, as long as you have two, maybe three short paragraphs, and it is coherent and shows that you have some idea of what you are talking about, no one is gonna get mad at you because you didn't spend hours making it a grad-school level essay. Can't think of any other requirements that I strongly disliked doing, so if there's another one, would love to hear exactly what it is.

Erasariel

Houses (or rogue clans, if any) are good for new players so they can get a sense of direction with their RP. Thing is, some Houses have requirements that aren't really fun to get through with. The Mojushai, for example, require an HR2 (which can be as young as less than a month OOC or so) to write actual lectures IIRC. Not really something you give new players to do!

Mannimar

At HR2 I'm just making sure you know that Ashtan is a city and not a person, along with the fact that You know what the Walkers are and how your character is going to fit into the House.*

*This is a slight under exaggeration 

Nizaris

Hrm. @Wynedere: I bent over backwards for you, and attempted to be as accommodating for you as I could. I agreed with you that having -extra- requirements placed on you by your mentor was too much. I got the mentor to lax up a bit. I referred the matter to the House Lord twice, who agreed with you. I gave you very clear instructions on what to do if they didn't ease up. And then, you decide to quit, rather than going patiently as I had advised, and going about things in the manner that I asked you to (slowly, conservatively). 

To the above, I don't have a problem with it. I told you from the outset that I didn't care what you chose to do as a player, but I sure attempted to remedy the situation.

What I do have a problem with is you coming up here to the forums, bad mouthing what I tried to do to help Mhaldor, and you out. You act as if nothing was done to remedy the situation. As far as I'm concerned, you're slandering.

The answer to your question is that yes, Houses are worth the trouble. But, you have to be willing to play a multiplayer game.

Achilles

It depends on the house. For someone who is already pretty established a house doesn't offer you as much. You should get the basics for your class and some decent RP as a novice thereafter its up to you to build upon these new relationships to expand your role. 

Now the Knight houses are combat oriented and require a lot more sparring to get promoted. It doesnt assure you of being a badass when you are done but you should at least be competent. Some people think it is too much but realistically someone who really likes that aspect will breeze through it. If you aren't into combat then I tell people to switch houses/class all the time. I get suggestions from some to add essays and I facepalm because I know no one likes to grade them much less write them. 

So in conclusion id join a house if I wanted a more defined purpose for my character. You lose some flexibility in terms of what you can do but it also gives you the foundation to build off of.

*edit Fixed formatting from tablet.

Ruth

Houses give a lot of direction to me. I can't stand playing a rogue. It limits the circle of people I would get to interact with, and it gives me something to do. Progressing in the house does take some effort, but I personally don't mind because I like the privs that open up to me as I do.

I think houses are worth the effort.

Maht

Ruth said:

Houses give a lot of direction to me. I can't stand playing a rogue. It limits the circle of people I would get to interact with, and it gives me something to do. Progressing in the house does take some effort, but I personally don't mind because I like the privs that open up to me as I do.

I think houses are worth the effort.

While I agree with houses being generally worth it, being rogue by definition should allow for more people to interact with.

Tvistor

The temptation to simply drop a written axekick is astounding. Then I realized all axekicks in Achaea are written.

@Wynedere I've seen the Congregation requirements and have asked Nizaris to speak about them, but he was extremely obliging and clearly willing to work to improve the House. Perhaps if you have an issue you should bring up specific examples (or even better, quote the entire HHELP file and point out which parts you disagree too, since taking things out of context is best reserved for the American political system) rather than hopping onto the forums and making a post that is likely to hurt House membership.

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

This thread is horrendously unproductive because you have stated you don't enjoy doing things that 'are not fun', yet have failed to explain what you find fun, what you find particularly tedious and whether the Congregation was better or worse than previous experiences. Even if the requirements are not particularly interesting, I will personally vouch for the quality of the vast majority of the Congregation's members. Amazingly deep and consistent characters like Alynna are why I keep playing, and superbly dedicated mentor figures such as Nizaris are why people keep playing. Anyone that disagrees is entitled to their own opinion wrong. I'm actually offended on their behalf, because they are likely too nice to admit so because they are fantastic people.

The definition of 'I want to be doing things' is so, so, so useless. Everything is 'doing' something. Unless you specify what it is you want to do, this thread is as useful as a Geiger counter while you're stranded in the middle of Chernobyl. That is to say, you know something's wrong but can't really do much about it.

Firstly: Having to memorize cures can not be helped, and I hope you'd understand that. Mhaldor uses minerals for the most part, newbies will have to learn what minerals do and frankly speaking it is really easy to do it. You could even just open HELP CURELIST on notepad, answer your test and after that just replaceLine("bloodroot") whenever magnesium is used in fights. Seriously.

Secondly: I agree that House requirements need a certain amount of activity rather than written work, but you'd accomplish a lot more working alongside Nizaris than with forum activity like this.

(That is not to say there may not be legitimately pointless requirements. You are simply complaining about them in a way that leaves the House no room to retort, no room to make improvements and moreover will possibly drastically harm the way the House is viewed. The essence of your post is 'Don't be boring' without any recommendations. I could just as easily tell my novices 'not to get killed' in raids and leave it at that.)

Some names on 'other people' would be great too, because I hear 'other people' also think Tvistor is extremely sexy, but that doesn't mean it is true. But it is.

Lastly "I'll freely admit that the problem might just be with me and my personal distaste for performing countless acts in a game that aren't fun."

That is not a disclaimer in any language I know about. That says "It's not a problem with you, it's a problem with me for not having as many problems as you."

Sherazad

On Mhaldorians adding extra requirements. I understand why some would do this, and ICly, I take it as a test of character. It is a city of Evil and people can be petty and all slaves can do is to take it and do what must be done, no matter how odd the order is. 

This isn't to say that if you find something unreasonable, you should just do it without help. You can try but these characters are people too and they can be understanding. It's good that Nizaris has provided help in relaxing the requirements, and there are other superiors who understand how others can go overboard. There were instances that this happened in other houses and we were able to keep people because they have been patient. 

Frankly, I have been in houses with easier requirements. In the end, I didn't appreciate those house much. Somehow, experiencing strict Mhaldorian RP made me appreciate the people who are amazingly committed to playing Evil and providing novices an Evil experience.

Generally, what I'm saying is, houses are worth it, especially those with more thought out requirements. I think it's a good way for house novice people to say that they care about molding their novices.

Wynedere

Nizaris said:

Hrm. @Wynedere: I bent over backwards for you, and attempted to be as accommodating for you as I could. I agreed with you that having -extra- requirements placed on you by your mentor was too much. I got the mentor to lax up a bit. I referred the matter to the House Lord twice, who agreed with you. I gave you very clear instructions on what to do if they didn't ease up. And then, you decide to quit, rather than going patiently as I had advised, and going about things in the manner that I asked you to (slowly, conservatively). 

To the above, I don't have a problem with it. I told you from the outset that I didn't care what you chose to do as a player, but I sure attempted to remedy the situation.

What I do have a problem with is you coming up here to the forums, bad mouthing what I tried to do to help Mhaldor, and you out. You act as if nothing was done to remedy the situation. As far as I'm concerned, you're slandering.

The answer to your question is that yes, Houses are worth the trouble. But, you have to be willing to play a multiplayer game.

Just wow. Didn't realize that by using the Congregation as an -example-, I'd end up seeing someone take it personally. I don't enjoy pages worth of requirements. I told you that when we talked oocly. Nothing I've said here on the forums should be news to you because I already said the same thing to you. No, this topic was not meant to "slander" your precious. This was a topic about house requirements in general, not only the Congregation. The Congregation got an honorable mention because, surprisingly, it was the last house I tried.

Frankly, as a HoN, you've gone way overboard with your requirements. But, that is only my own opinion. Take it as you will. Getting personally insulted because someone doesn't like what you've done with an online house is taking things way too far. I didn't call you out before, and wouldn't now had you not posted with such offense. Take a step back and consider the fact that the opinion of a single, solitary player means very little in the grand scheme of things. Things will continue going the way they are now, I'm sure. I didn't kick your irl dog, burn your house down, or pillage your town. Chill.