Are Houses Worth the Trouble?

Sherazad

Thread would've been more helpful if the OP addressed parts of Tvistor's post.

Tvistor said:

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

This thread is horrendously unproductive because you have stated you don't enjoy doing things that 'are not fun', yet have failed to explain what you find fun, what you find particularly tedious and whether the Congregation was better or worse than previous experiences.

Tvistor

I am quite handsome, yes.

Synbios

Sherazad said:

Thread would've been more helpful if the OP addressed parts of Tvistor's post.

Or if the OP also addressed the part where Nizaris mentioned that they have taken her concerns and were actually working on them, instead of assuming that Nizaris was offended that they were 'called out' on forums.

Xenomorph

There is the Maldaathi, then there is the rest.

Tessa

While there's apparently a personal conflict going on here, I do see the validity of this thread. I, personally, as a self-labeled rogue, have asked myself the same question many times. So please, if the rest here don't mind, bear with this wall I'm about to create. I don't post on here often, and I'd really appreciate the input.

I've had one main and 5 alts in an attempt to find my niche/s. My main hit a good House, with problems I'll explain later. My other alts hit bad ends for one reason or another, all but one regarding Houses, and the last is a rogue who managed to find a decent place in a city with a group to call her own. We can all agree that no House is likely the same as another (possible, but for sake of argument we'll say no). There are trends though. Let me list some of the issues I've run into in my experiences while avoiding naming names.

Alt #1 - Joined a House straight out of the Flame. After three RL hours, there was no contact from the House, with three low ranking and two high ranking members online. Next RL day, went four hours with about 9 people online, still no contact from anyone. If I were a complete newbie, I wouldn't know where to look to deal with that or how (some don't even know about CT). As it was, I took it as a bad sign regarding the commitment, attentiveness and care of that House, and did away with the alt.

Alt #2 - Joined a House straight out of the Flame and was met with a very friendly response. Very nice first impression. Ended up with someone directing me to general scrolls, annnnnd then it became apparent that one those scrolls were large enough that if they were put it into an Achaean journal, they'd literally and easily max out several pages. While I have no issue with work or reading, it was excessive, and frankly I didn't have the obvious hours required to go through what were excessively long-winded documents, stating what other Houses did with a single page or less. I know that sort of thing would most definitely turn off any who weren't borderline elitist in RP standards.

Alt #3 - Inducted from the Flame, had a friendly welcome and everything seemed reasonable. Went through the first and second 'tests' and passed. Was one test from becoming a full member. Then the one acting as the character's mentor started asking of what directions they might want to go. When it became very apparent that my character had no interest in combat, he was chastized and it was stated that he'd never get far or go anywhere. Definitely had me going wtf.

Alt #4 - First attempt at a rogue. Wasn't contacted by any Houses, didn't have luck with individuals he contacted or in the two cities he tried in finding any sort of direction. After some further attempts to drum up some interaction, then quite literally just blatantly asking people standing around for help and being put off/ignored, the character suicided.

Alt #5 (this character) - Created as a rogue (houseless, not cityless), joined Cyrene a short while out of the Flame (as had been planned ahead of time with a bit of IC exploration), and managed to find a good home along with direction. While the character is very much a success, no House has yet to intrigue her or offer anything that she couldn't get in any other way.

Main - My main was, obviously, my first. It offers what seems to me like the biggest issue in my considerations of whether Houses are worth it or not. Not initial requirements (though I believe it's obvious that some could use work there), but what happens after you become a full member. This character joined a city and House straight out of the Flame. It was very fun and fulfilling since I was a noob to Achaea at the time (aside from prior RP experience elsewhere), and I happily did the requirements. Had some hitches both IC and OOC (like losing my notes >.>), but it only added to the experience. There was a lot of interaction between this character and the House. Then, once the character reached a certain point, which was a while after becoming a full member, the House stopped really paying this character any mind. I followed what others have been saying, since I believe it myself, and took it upon myself to create some works, experiences, etc. The House still gave little attention, which led the character to feel lied to, betrayed and abandoned after so long. Her friends tried to get her to feel better about it, but given the depth of her interaction with the House before then, it didn't help much.

Furthering on my main, since that's where I had the most experience with a House: the times I was included in things regarding the House were nice. There was more than one event where, when included to either act or observe, my character felt very satisfied regardless of what that character could or couldn't do at the time. These events were major for the House however, meaning they were very few and very far between. In the other times, when the character was all but ignored, it was idling, hunting, doing things noone took notice of (which included helping Novices, and mentoring), or otherwise trying my best to occupy myself.

So...comparing my successful rogue with what I considered a successful House-oriented character (even if that character's all but dead now), I'm finding that after the newness of the newbie related tasks and those rare House-wide events, my House character really didn't have anything up on my rogue. Both had friends, so that negates that point. Both could help newbies (admittedly easier when of a House, but still not exclusive).

That all being said, I think that Houses in their general role (barring individual faults) -are- worth it for newbies to the game. My question becomes, though, what benefit does one have for someone who -isn't- a newbie? This character is pretty much all I play now. She's looked at Houses several times, and honestly she nor I see any reason to join one. Any other thoughts are welcome as well.

Jiraishin

Benefits are a sense of identity, a community, and an avenue for achievement.

Antidas

@Tessa where's the tl;dr

Wynedere

Synbios said:

Sherazad said:

Thread would've been more helpful if the OP addressed parts of Tvistor's post.

Or if the OP also addressed the part where Nizaris mentioned that they have taken her concerns and were actually working on them, instead of assuming that Nizaris was offended that they were 'called out' on forums.

Again, the thread wasn't solely about the Congregation - it was focused on house requirements in general. There are what, 25 houses in Achaea? I mentioned the Congregation because that was the last house I tried, and one of the worst in terms of requirements.

But, to answer your concern, no the problem wasn't being handled. It was a house rank issue and Nizaris couldn't do much about it (I will note that he tried). Azor told him to let the problem take care of itself. No problem takes care of itself. You can't just sit back and whistle blissfully while hoping things will work out in the end. They rarely do.

Some basic requirements are all right. They're needed for novices. After novicehood, however, requirements often degenerate into tedious hurdles one must jump for advancement purposes. These hurdles can take the form of so many requirements that the files have to be broken down into numerous other files for one, yes one, advancement rank (HR5). When requirements reach the point of overflow, it's time to take a step back and reevaluate why in the world you want to put your house members through that much idiocy.

Mannimar

Thats the thing... once you hit HR5 you're no long a novice. You don't need to be introduced to Achaea, or your house. At that point you've become a full member of your house, you've set your character's RP to be a member of x House, so they're going to hit you with more requirements before rewarding you.

When you were a kid, you were rewarded for putting your toys away, for making your bed, for washing your hands.

When you hit high school cleaning your room was putting your toys away, making your bed, dusting, vacuuming, ect, and you wouldn't get rewarded for the whole concept, let alone the general cleaning. You had to do x amount of other things depending upon your parents before you got an allowance (if you got one).

Houses run a bit like parent's raise children. We're in your face at first, but we slowly make you take on and motivate yourself and your responsibilities. There may be rewards, there may not be, but after rank x we aren't there to baby you. There might be the occasional  reminder. We (usually) won't assign you extra work unless you've proven yourself capable.

tl;dr version:

Early ranks are an introduction to Achaea/House

Later ranks are for you to further your own RP.

If you don't like it, earn rank and change it.

Ruth

Aside from the EF, I personally like the advancement scrolls in the Occultists, Ty'Beirdd and CIJ. They're much more interactive and I think, challenges certain aspects of the novices entering the houses. Besides guiding them in the basics, these houses serve as examples in granting house members the outlet from which they can pursue certain goals (I.e religious dogma, politics, performing/art.) And in terms of too tedious house requirements to get HR5, one of my alts have been hanging at HR4 for ages. I got into an order faster than getting HR5 because the house requirements are more tedious than the order ones. But I still enjoy that house because the atmosphere in it is awesome and the people there have steadily become a support network for my character. That's something I feel are the benefit of houses too.

I don't like being a rogue because the freedom it grants eventually becomes boring to me. I find it harder to talk to people if I'm not related to them in some way or if I have no reason to be talking to them. And the bonds forged as a rogue seem significantly harder; maybe because I've yet to be in a house that has disappointed or frustrated me a lot.

In conclusion, I definitely think the perceived benefits of a house depends on the attitude in which you approach things.

Wynedere

Mannimar said:

Thats the thing... once you hit HR5 you're no long a novice. You don't need to be introduced to Achaea, or your house. At that point you've become a full member of your house, you've set your character's RP to be a member of x House, so they're going to hit you with more requirements before rewarding you.

When you were a kid, you were rewarded for putting your toys away, for making your bed, for washing your hands.

When you hit high school cleaning your room was putting your toys away, making your bed, dusting, vacuuming, ect, and you wouldn't get rewarded for the whole concept, let alone the general cleaning. You had to do x amount of other things depending upon your parents before you got an allowance (if you got one).

Houses run a bit like parent's raise children. We're in your face at first, but we slowly make you take on and motivate yourself and your responsibilities. There may be rewards, there may not be, but after rank x we aren't there to baby you. There might be the occasional  reminder. We (usually) won't assign you extra work unless you've proven yourself capable.

tl;dr version:

Early ranks are an introduction to Achaea/House

Later ranks are for you to further your own RP.

If you don't like it, earn rank and change it.

No, these are requirements to gain HR5 (full house membership), not to advance beyond. I couldn't care less if they want to pile on the requirements beyond HR5. HR5 is important as members are not considered full house members until this rank. The requirements to gain this rank are what I have issue with, not anything beyond it.

And no, no way I'm going to earn rank by doing insane requirements. That might be all right with some players, but not me. Let the houses shoot themselves in the foot if that's what they want to do. It isn't up to me to change anything at all. I don't mind helping, but you can't help people who don't want to be helped.

 

@Ruth - Great post. I couldn't agree more with a majority of it.

Mannimar

@Wynedere first off I would have to know what you consider "insane" requirements.And no, I don't mean it's up to you to change something you hate, somewhere you hate it. Rather, when you find the direction and house you want to take Wynedere in, if you see the potential for greatness, but see where they're falling face first... earn rank, earn position, change what needs to be changed. 

I found myself in a house that had requirements that encouraged stagnancy. So I pushed through them, I made it to Secretary and started putting on little events for novices. I then made HoN, and could finally do something about the requirements. I very quickly saw a better attitude among the novices. I've recently come into rank for the next set of requirements and am looking at making adjustments to make them more reasonable for the rank.

My point is simply, if you want it to improve, then bite the bullet and work your way through it, and fix it.

Tvistor

Seriously dude, I don't know what you want. Remove every single requirement apart from the absolute bare essentials? I can see arguments both for and against that. Make fun requirements? We all have different ideas of fun. Unless you're going to point out a specific example, preferably citing where the example is from, this is going to get nowhere at all.

I will say a House gives a character purpose. I can also say the majority of rogues are astoundingly boring and my immediate instinct is usually to kill them just because I can.

It is not that the HoNs of various Houses do not want to help, you're just not being helpful. Nizaris responded with "Certainly, I'd be interested in discussing with you." because I made it immediately apparent I was going to pinpoint and explain my problems with the House requirements instead of saying 'this is boring, remove it'.

In other news I had spaghetti for dinner yesterday and it was delicious.

Sherazad

Given your posts, without specificity on the problem, it sounds like you hate house requirements sooo much and I still don't know why exactly.

In all my characters, I've been a full member on 3 houses. I've tried more houses than that and let's say that in the houses that didn't interest me, I didn't pursue full membership (it's just one, their beliefs and leadership weren't tolerable enough for me). There are rooms for improvement, but frankly, I'm gonna say going rogue isn't for me. While you can build a name for yourself, it's not gonna give more rewards than if you work really hard in a house. A house's long history opens you up easier to more serious RP opportunities that can have more lasting results.

I'm going to echo what Mannimar said, about making the change. The Ebon Fist's requirements have been changed much from when I was a novice and we're going to improve on it more after the events. Sherazad might not have been part of these changes but she made sure she clung to people who believed she can change things and proceeded to do so. Given what I see from other houses, I believe Nizaris is trying hard to make a newer start with his current novices and it's mostly working.

Xith

I have always found house tasks and tests taxing, enough that I seldom care enough about advancing, at least when a house doesn't seem to have a solid direction or activity itself (many don't). But it was verrry helpful as a novice and non-mudder when I first started playing. They just have to make sure their 1st and 2nd tests are broken up well enough to not create an overwhelming feeling of "I'll never get the hang of this."

IDEA: (nevermind, will put the idea in the idea forum)

Aepas

My story of going into a new house.
"Hello, worthless being. Find a mentor."
-Nobody around for 3 rl days
-someone appears
"Hail, will you be my mentor?"
"You're likely just asking because I am the only person around at the moment. Why don't you figure out what you really want."
-three days later, get Dethea as a mentor. Dethea goes dormant.
-work ass off with no help at all, nobody caring, no mentor, no scrolls to go off of.

Loved every minute of it. Builds character you know.

Mannimar

@Xith That was an issue with one of my Houses. Their reqs were a wall of text, and I had no clue how to start. Once I actually hit the point about learning how the House worked, they digressed into "Now you get to learn how to find where to get food even though you've already started combat, and created a promising RP"

I was so confused by this progression in requirements... So I fixed it. 

Thats the thing. Sometimes you need a fresh opinion, and some radical ideas to bring the potential in a House out. Many just give up and say f- this s-.

Xith

http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/441/trial-of-rebirth-modifications

Yeah, hunger should happen in the new Trial just so you learn it's a mechanic in Achaea, like sleep.

Tilly

@Aepas I'm glad you enjoyed it, but that honestly sounds like a terrible time, especially when tests require approval from phantom mentors.

Shahai

I personnaly don't want any House. I understand that coud provide goals or setting for some people, but what people told me about it does not sound at all like something made for me.

Sherazad

Tilly said:

@Aepas I'm glad you enjoyed it, but that honestly sounds like a terrible time, especially when tests require approval from phantom mentors.

That's before the EF got better.

Calaurn

Nothing made sense so far, so I am going to make up my own question*.

Are Houses worth the effort of going through all the trouble(s)?

One answer is, no. Not if you are going to play solo character in a House (with the possible exception of Aepas, but he had little choice).

What are the other possible answers?

*Note: I am sure that I am entitled to some kind of disclaimer here.

Right. Disclaimer. I do not view the world through angled brackets cross at each other.

Mishgul

Carmain is still waiting for Wynedere to finish her tasks.

Dethea

Aepas said:

My story of going into a new house.
"Hello, worthless being. Find a mentor."
-Nobody around for 3 rl days
-someone appears
"Hail, will you be my mentor?"
"You're likely just asking because I am the only person around at the moment. Why don't you figure out what you really want."
-three days later, get Dethea as a mentor. Dethea goes dormant.
-work ass off with no help at all, nobody caring, no mentor, no scrolls to go off of.

Loved every minute of it. Builds character you know.

I'm so sorry.

I think you slipped under my radar (totally my fault). Plus, I couldn't really play regularly anymore.

I will buy you a present when I start playing again!

PS - I hope nobody required me to approve anything for you to pass tests and stuff, because I don't remember getting any messages to that effect.

PPS - As far as houses go (the original topic), I've always loved the EF. It has had its ups and downs, but overall I feel (as my character does), when I was playing, a real attachment to the success of the house because of its (as the Tanjinn guild) welcoming environment when I was a newbie. 

Nizaris

Basically, I treat the writing of requirements as an iterative process. Precise suggestions, Wynedere, would have been helpful, along with the understanding that between OOC work, alongside a time-consuming war, I have had little time to make changes. This was one of the reasons why I asked you to take things slowly.

Trey

Yes.









See? I answered the OP without a novel. What's with you people?

Xenomorph

Houses are a tangible way to judge the value of a player, which can measure their progress and purpose through a number of routes.

Without a House, a player does not support a sanctioned government, therefore their existence is bereft of charted merit. Life unworthy of life.

Tvistor

Your victims message me complimenting you, Daeir. I'm still deciding if I want to execute you for that or housefavour you.

Thaumas

Ebon Fist was pretty good. Sentaari I really couldn't stand. The house is absolutely terrible (no, that doesn't mean that all individuals in there are terrible as well).

"Roses are pretty, but they have thorns, too! *romp* "

Veldrin

The question shouldn't be 'Are houses worth the trouble' it should be 'are being house-less worth the trouble'

I really miss guilds having much more say than what houses got right now.