Ships and seafaring changes

Lithorin

personally i'm not really liking the idea that now the Windcutter has no viable means to defend it's self from attack. the only ammo it can really use no longer does any kind of damage. I am usually the first to say that in the context of a game realism can and should be sacrificed in cases where it interferes with enjoyment. Now having said that. I feel that it is very unrealistic. even the smallest ships had guns. Also not everyone on the sea can afford a Strider or a Galley. It just seems that this will discourage new sailors who would likely save up for the larger ships. and will discourage many people from sailing to the islands or Meropis. In short it just seems unfair to us poor people that we don't have an affordable sailing option anymore

Greys

@Lithorin Actually the way it now works, the windcutter has more of a means of defending itself as now it can break free of a grapple-lock. It lacks any offensive power but if you knew the amount of damage wardiscs did earlier, you were not going to win any fights against a strider.  Your only real offensive threat is boarding which has not changed (with the accuracy bonus its now actually easier).

@Tecton Do flares still give an additional message when they set the other ship on fire? As we either got very unlucky in our combat or they stopped doing so.

Lithorin

Greys said:

@Lithorin Actually the way it now works, the windcutter has more of a means of defending itself as now it can break free of a grapple-lock. It lacks any offensive power but if you knew the amount of damage wardiscs did earlier, you were not going to win any fights against a strider.  Your only real offensive threat is boarding which has not changed (with the accuracy bonus its now actually easier).

@Tecton Do flares still give an additional message when they set the other ship on fire? As we either got very unlucky in our combat or they stopped doing so.

ah well then forgive me, i'm in the process of buying a strider i just miss the cutters turning. and was feeling a little let down with the change as i was planning on selling the strider for a nice cutter when i was done.

Elowin

Lithorin said:

...i was planning on selling the strider for a nice cutter when i was done.

Wut. Still up for a trade?

Greys

Also, any word if the harpooner trait will change to faster balance?

Lorielan

@Greys there is a lot left to go with the seafaring/ships overhaul. Traits and similar small sideline bonuses will likely be looked at much closer to the end, when the main mechanical alterations are done and balanced in such a way that we're happy with them.

Tecton

Skye said:

I'm really liking what I'm seeing so far. Even if I didn't get to full on participate and was just auxiliary crew. I loved that shiptarget now highlights the intended ship, which made things so much less confusing, especially when you're trying to grapple.

Since highlighting a targetted ship is now proven feasible, is there any chance we may get additional highlights for hostile and friendly vessels as per designation? There was a 2-4 ship scrum earlier. Since most of the other ships were sort of meandering on the edge of the map, it didn't really interfere, but I imagine it'll also be chaotic if they had bundled up closer.

Yep, we've got plans for ship groups and representing group members in a different colour - will be in an upcoming batch.

Aesi

Just wanna say.

ships are even more badass now.

way to go!

Anaria

I really don't like that windcutters are now unable to inflict physical damage. I'm not saying I dislike the crew interruption aspect of wardiscs, but this class of ship shouldn't be completely toothless with no option to stand and fight. It should at the very least be possible for one cutter to potentially sink another 1v1.

I've been in a lot of battles in my cutter and I've never once set anyone on fire with a flare. Yes, I know it's technically possible. It's just not likely enough to be practical and it is easy to put out a single rare fire.

Kinilan

Cutters have always been entry level though. Nobody in the history of Seafaring bought a cutter and said to themselves "Ok I've got myself a ship for fighting with."

Greys

@Anaria board ship, kill crew, launch flares.
But yeah the whole point of cutters only getting arms is indicating they are not warships.

Annwyl

Kinilan said:

Cutters have always been entry level though. Nobody in the history of Seafaring bought a cutter and said to themselves "Ok I've got myself a ship for fighting with."

Except @Jinsun.

Anaria

Greys said:

@Anaria board ship, kill crew, launch flares.
But yeah the whole point of cutters only getting arms is indicating they are not warships.

I really wanted to avoid the subject of boarding. Boarding in it's current form is a terrible awful horrible mechanic that I hope they are in the process of changing. You aren't supposed to be allowed to PK other players on a ship just because you happen to be in a ship battle with them, per help PK. It flat out says so. But the administration has never actually clarified this and people do it all the time without repercussions. So if we assume it's okay, then it takes the naval battle into the realm of player vs player with all the baggage that implies, at which point the ship types involved become pretty much irrelevant.

I don't think anyone would argue that windcutters are warships. But there is a difference between being weak and being totally defenseless. Not saying they should be GOOD in a fight, but they should have the option to fight.

Kresslack

I don't see anything wrong with boarding. If anything, it's comparable to raiding a city. The argument that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should doesn't really have a place in the mechanics of it all.

The Oceans are considered a separate (for lack of a better term) linear plane with a separate set of rules. Help PK doesn't flat out say anything about not being able to board or attack anyone on a ship. It simply states that after boarding a ship, then the regular PK rules apply. That means you can seek appropriate response, not that no one can attack you after boarding.

On the matter of Windcutters, I don't know anyone with a a background with the Seafaring system that would argue that Windcutters ought to have a certain level of firepower. Windcutters are meant to be small and quick. That doesn't present a lot of opportunity for offensive or defensive measures outside of the skill of the captain.

If you want something that can defend itself, get a Seastrider at the very least. Experience has taught me that Windcutters are only as defenseless and helpless as the capability of the person sailing them.

Jonathin

If you think that any ship is weak and defenseless, you are not a very good captain and should probably work on that.

Anaria

Kresslack said:

Windcutters are only as defenseless and helpless as the capability of the person sailing them.

How exactly do you fight in a ship that can't inflict ANY damage? How does "capability" even come into the equation? Or do you mean the PK capability of the captain, since force boarding seems to be the only viable tactic on the table? Which is a skill unto itself certainly but has nothing to do with sailing once that plank lands.

Kinilan

Annwyl said:

Kinilan said:

Cutters have always been entry level though. Nobody in the history of Seafaring bought a cutter and said to themselves "Ok I've got myself a ship for fighting with."

Except @Jinsun.

Pirates showing off don't count. They do stuff like that for shits and giggles.

Greys

ANNOUNCE NEWS #4468
Date: 12/05/2015 at 05:04
From: Tecton the Terraformer
To : Everyone
Subj: Ships and seafaring tweaks

We've made some balance tweaks to a couple of aspects of ships and seafaring, the details are as follows:

* The hull damage from crossing the new chop tiles has been increased. 
* Ship weapon timers are now more granular, meaning you'll see more of a difference in the various factors that affect aiming time.
* When a weapon successfully fires, the recoil will reset the aiming time of any other weapons on the ship being aimed.

Penned by My hand on the 5th of Aeguary, in the year 700 AF.

So if the recoil resets all the gunners, does that not make the extra weapons on a war galley useless?

Bronislav

And now, spare gunners and War Galleys have become somewhat useless in combat - unless I'm terribly mistaken? :frown: I'm withholding judgment, as there are a lot of anticipated changes...But still.

Morthif

As someone gathering the gold to buy a war galley right now I'd like an answer too please.

Kinilan

This is almost like the original weapon mechanics where the weapon balance was tied to crew balance so ou could only fire one weapon at a time.

If I had to guess it was a reaction to large crews just dominating as a consequence of being able to basically stun-lock a ship with the new ammo effects.

Kresslack

Anaria said:

Kresslack said:

Windcutters are only as defenseless and helpless as the capability of the person sailing them.

How exactly do you fight in a ship that can't inflict ANY damage? How does "capability" even come into the equation? Or do you mean the PK capability of the captain, since force boarding seems to be the only viable tactic on the table? Which is a skill unto itself certainly but has nothing to do with sailing once that plank lands.

You don't...that's the entire point. If you're in a Windcutter, your "capability" should be to evade and escape, if you're competent enough. Not that complicated a concept. Windcutters don't need to be able to take on other ships. They need to be quick, nimble, and maneuverable, as they already are.

Tahquil

I think a few of these changes have negated the nimbleness a cutter had had in the past though.

Greys

It seems an extreme step is all, I could understand a penalty (I'd rather an accuracy penalty than a balance one)

Shirszae

Perhaps cutters could be made to move twice as fast as Striders in the new chops while incrementing the damage they receive a tiny bit as well? It would be a double-edged blade, since while it be advantageous, it'll also have the risk of both the Strider simply powering through and catching up to you anyway, on top of the fast damage from the chops themselves.

Valkyn

Twice as fast? That's nuts.

Cutters should definitely take more hull damage when going through chops though, at the moment it's 2% for a strider and the same for a cutter. Should be less on bigger ships, partly due to increased hull strength, and also less of an ability to easily just go around.

Shirszae

Well, maybe twice as fast is a bit too much, but I do agree that cutters need something new now that their nimbleness is not so nimble. Just further making them worse than Striders without giving them something might be a bit too much.

Kinilan

Daeir said:

Best you could hope to do would be to like, stationhold on their approach and try and get a wardisc exactly when they throw the turn, so they're off crew balance for ages. Even then, they'd probably catch up on the straights again.

You just described how a Galley would deal with a Strider. Except a Galley will gain on a Strider waaaaay faster than a Strider will gain on a Cutter.

Kresslack

             

Kresslack

Daeir said:

How does the whirlpool seaspell work now? Were whirlpool tiles always distinct from chops? Is it more or less viable now?

They look like "@" iirc, or some swirly thing. Definitely noticeable.