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Custom Racial Stats

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  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,432 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    Part of good RP is being able to work with and alongside the canon of a game set out in either the rule book or by the DM.

    Now, I haven't played D&D in earnest. I've sat through one session but I'm going to give it a go.

    You wouldn't go into a D&D game, and say to your DM "I'm going to be an orc. A sneaky orc. I'm going to be as sneaky as a halfling." Most likely you'd be told no. You might get a compromise in stacking your char in a way that You're the sneakiest orc there is.. but in saying that you're probably only going to as sneaky as awfully clumsy halfling.

    The admin/DMs have already taken steps to alleviate what was a gross disparity between the races. The introduction of statpacks means not everyone has to be a rajamalan to be effective as a knight or mhun to be a serpent. You can be effective as a knight or serpent in most races now.

    SO which kind of D&D player are you? Roleplaying and accepting of game canon or do you play the numbers game.
    D&D hasn't, in earnest, forced you to play certain races with classes since advanced, with the worst of it being things like dwarf rogue, because you got no bonuses to class skills that were necessary nor did you get a dex bonus (But I believe no negative since advanced).

    D&D updated it to prevent this so people could be Tiefling paladins and stuff, stats hammering on what you could RP as (because losing your character because time decided to be a damn troll cleric and have a low wisdom roll because trolls get no help for divinity or wisdom!) 

    This thought process was true decades ago, when even selecting your race in WoW made a 2 stat point difference, and something top guilds WOULD do because even though it was .01% DPS or healing or tanking increase, it was still worth it. Like I said, I'm happy to still have some stat fluctuations, or even say:


    Statistics for this race:
    Specialisation      Str.        Dex.        Con.        Int.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Unspecialised       11          12          12          13
    Fury                13          12          12          12
    Enticer             10          15          11          13
    Guardian            11          11          14          13
    Sorceress           10          12          12          15

    For siren, as an example, so sirens can go max dex or max int.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • TolanTolan Member Posts: 181 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 2016
    Tahquil said:
    Part of good RP is being able to work with and alongside the canon of a game set out in either the rule book or by the DM.

    Now, I haven't played D&D in earnest. I've sat through one session but I'm going to give it a go.

    You wouldn't go into a D&D game, and say to your DM "I'm going to be an orc. A sneaky orc. I'm going to be as sneaky as a halfling." Most likely you'd be told no. You might get a compromise in stacking your char in a way that You're the sneakiest orc there is.. but in saying that you're probably only going to as sneaky as awfully clumsy halfling.

    The admin/DMs have already taken steps to alleviate what was a gross disparity between the races. The introduction of statpacks means not everyone has to be a rajamalan to be effective as a knight or mhun to be a serpent. You can be effective as a knight or serpent in most races now.

    SO which kind of D&D player are you? Roleplaying and accepting of game canon or do you play the numbers game.

    There are two kinds of people in this world. I, am neither of them.



    Edit: Stay thirsty, my friends.
    Kafziel
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2016
    Hoo, boy, not sure citing how people play WoW as a model for how you should approach Achaea is going to lead anywhere good :/ 

    ETA: That thought process (in Dungeons and Dragons specifically) was made so that people could pick D&D up like any other game, and just play, instead of having to spend time creating and refining characters, and reading rulebooks, so that more people would play it, rather than have some players that spent a lot of money on it (3.5 was a big black hole of money for people serious about D&D before the internet age). The argument you're making is actually for -less- immersion, so that it's -easier- to pick it up and just play like an MMO, instead of for more involvement. Given that the thread has generally leant towards deciding whether stats affect roleplay or not, I have to say the WoW example is a good one for my argument- people who don't care about roleplaying'll squeeze every last ounce out of min-maxing stats, and if everything were the same, then I really don't think they'd be incentivized to start being deep, immersion-loving roleplayers; I just think it takes a useful and interesting aspect of the world away from those who -do- roleplay.
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,432 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2016
    Anedhel said:
    Hoo, boy, not sure citing how people play WoW as a model for how you should approach Achaea is going to lead anywhere good :/ 

    ETA: That thought process (in Dungeons and Dragons specifically) was made so that people could pick D&D up like any other game, and just play, instead of having to spend time creating and refining characters, and reading rulebooks, so that more people would play it, rather than have some players that spent a lot of money on it (3.5 was a big black hole of money for people serious about D&D before the internet age). The argument you're making is actually for -less- immersion, so that it's -easier- to pick it up and just play like an MMO, instead of for more involvement. Given that the thread has generally leant towards deciding whether stats affect roleplay or not, I have to say the WoW example is a good one for my argument- people who don't care about roleplaying'll squeeze every last ounce out of min-maxing stats, and if everything were the same, then I really don't think they'd be incentivized to start being deep, immersion-loving roleplayers; I just think it takes a useful and interesting aspect of the world away from those who -do- roleplay.

    It was common to do so a decade ago, back when achaea still had the single stat pack for each race. Gaming has evolved to a point where RPGs are coming around to just giving you X stats and letting you go to town to where you put them, even D&D. The point wasn't even "other games do it so we should do it too!" It was that some gamers WILL go out of there way to min/max, so giving each race a second option (if stat packs to customise fully are not possible) would be a middle ground I could be happy with, or if all races had one awesome stat, and the rest ok... I don't know, the difficulty is a 5th stat (Size amirite?) would balance stat packs easier.

    The thing is, you can still play DnD where you roll up 6 (5 now?) sets of 3 dice and then set your stats. Even in Advanced this is how it worked, you rolled 6x3 sets and YOU decide where the stats go, so you could play an 18 int orc if you so wished. The thing is that I'm not asking for the stat packs, because I KNOW some people like preset stats, I'd just like a second max stat option for all races. The thing is it still doesn't have to be "pick up and play", but it can add depth still without cutting off what was already seen as depth.

    At this point, I'd be happy with stat packs, and then having actual effects on your character that are purely for cosmetic and roleplay. Such as high strength adds "She is a siren with a well-defined Physique".


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes, but comparing Achaea's roleplaying style to an MMO is a bit strange. Yes, people'll munchkin, no matter what. But there's a really deep connection as it is between races and their physical attributes, abilities, social tendencies, sense of ethics, etc. etc. I'm super happy with race specialisations and traits, it's already a great balance between a point buy style and the old Achaean fixed stats. I'm not sure what the advantage, except to make it easier to min-max (differences that really only make a big difference in tiny margins for pvp, and which really truly only shine if you've spent a lot of money on artefacts already, apart from in the case of Serpent and others like it, as I mentioned before), is in making all races have the same 'amount' of points to distribute. 
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,432 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anedhel said:
    Yes, but comparing Achaea's roleplaying style to an MMO is a bit strange. Yes, people'll munchkin, no matter what. But there's a really deep connection as it is between races and their physical attributes, abilities, social tendencies, sense of ethics, etc. etc. I'm super happy with race specialisations and traits, it's already a great balance between a point buy style and the old Achaean fixed stats. I'm not sure what the advantage, except to make it easier to min-max (differences that really only make a big difference in tiny margins for pvp, and which really truly only shine if you've spent a lot of money on artefacts already, apart from in the case of Serpent and others like it, as I mentioned before), is in making all races have the same 'amount' of points to distribute. 
    At this point, I could dump 2k credits and swap every 2 hours to whatever race will best benefit me, so the money argument sorta ends there. People Munchkin with the system now, but what statpacks would do is give people access to a hell of a lot less credits the ability to munchkin if they wished, they could be a troll magi and not be hurt because "13 int bro". I'd still be happy for a middle ground, but I still think either of those options are better than the current one.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    But there's a reason why Alcibiades is such a memorable character. A troll magician surpassing the competence of all his kin, that kind of thing sticks with you. If there were a thousand great troll magi, he'd not count for much, now, would he? 
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,402 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2016
    @Minifie: I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. Like I said, I'm not highly school'd in the intricacies of D&D.

    I'm not saying race dictates the class you can play which is what your saying I think?  I'm saying that races have backgrounds, pre-written blurbs that are drawn from that gives them different base stats or bonuses because they have that background. We're lucky no matter our stats we can play any class and we can be somewhat flexible with the addition of statpacks, but canon says trolls are strong, mhun are lithe and dexterous and grooks are freaky brain slimes and the base stats reflect that.

    Anedhel
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,432 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anedhel said:
    But there's a reason why Alcibiades is such a memorable character. A troll magician surpassing the competence of all his kin, that kind of thing sticks with you. If there were a thousand great troll magi, he'd not count for much, now, would he? 
    The option would still be there, and the thing is, you could still roleplay that if you so wished. It only devalues it if you want it to. I think my middle ground still allows something, Sirens can be dexterous and intelligent, but not hardy or strong (14 and 13, but 15 in others). I'm saying I can SEE why stat packs are preferred, I'm happy to reach a middle ground though that opens up races a little more, while still keeping some of those available. No solution is perfect that'll make us all happy, but we can still brain storm!

    Tahquil said:
    @Minifie: I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. Like I said, I'm not highly school'd in the intricacies of D&D.

    I'm not saying race dictates the class you can play which is what your saying I think?  I'm saying that races have backgrounds, pre-written blurbs that are drawn from that gives them different base stats or bonuses because they have that background. We're lucky no matter our stats we can play any class and we can be somewhat flexible with the addition of statpacks, but canon says trolls are strong, mhun are lithe and dexterous and grooks are freaky brain slimes and the base stats reflect that.

    I wasn't, but mostly because DnD has changed every version dramatically. I just think a middle ground would be awesomer than what we have in my opinion.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2016
    The ability to pick a stat point in traits is the middle ground, I feel. It gives pretty significant modification to your race's statpack, allowing you make yourself a stronger/quicker/hardier/smarter <X race> than your character'd ordinarily be! 

    ETA: I particularly like the Trait system because it lets you become a more <X or Y attribute> <race> than you'd ordinarily be, without just changing your genetics. Yes, you can be a stronger Siren, but you're still a Siren. Can be a cleverer Troll, but you're still a Troll! I really love that about Achaea, tbh. 
  • NakariNakari Member Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Wow, dunno why dnd is even being brought up, and it definitely doesn't support the argument that's being made about it for several reasons.

    a). Stats affect most everything in dnd. A big part of roleplay is rolling for skill checks, stat checks, saving throws, whatever. This means that having a bonus in something will ultimately have positive effects, as well, unlike Achaea, where stats only come up when fighting and in general everyone has two stats that there's essentially zero real penalty for dumping. If stats had actual mechanical effects on rp, this would be a very different conversation.

    b.) In general, dnd is designed so that racial stat modifiers make it easier or harder to hit certain numbers, but most variation is still random/decided through a point buy. The mechanical differences of a race are much easier to overcome at character creation, and so it's far easier to choose a suboptimal race. In Achaea, the moment you've chosen a race that has a penalty, you're behind other players of that class.

    c.) In dnd you can make up for stats with items. In achaea they cost large amounts of time/money to do this with, making those initial differences even more important

    d.) Unbalanced races in dnd were shitty there too. There's a reason why once people start caring about optimization in 3.5 they'll choose human most of the time. It only discourages interesting roleplay there, too.

    And really, I agree with everything that @Tahquil is saying about accepting game cannon in rp. I'm all for people playing the fact that certain races have certain attributes in the lore. However, it's silly to say that this needs to exist alongside merely statistical differences between races. Trolls can still be less intelligent on average if there were full statpacks, and Tsol'aa more frail, and whatever. But those traits have always only been dependent on roleplay in the first place. The statistical differences only encourage people to play the game as a numbers game and discourage wanting to have engaging racial roleplay. Yes, there are people who choose mechanically inferior races despite that, it doesn't prohibit that, but it also gives people an incentive for not engaging with their race.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,402 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We have a middle ground. The implementation of stat packs.
    AnedhelAerekAziik
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,432 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    We have a middle ground. The implementation of stat packs.
    It was worse so it can't be better? 


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • NakariNakari Member Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Things are better under the current system, somewhat, but the fundamental flaws are still there. People are still routinely picking races because it's mechanically better, rather then because the lore/rp interests them. That only detracts from the sort of racial roleplay people are defending in this thread, rather then enhancing it. (And calling it a middle ground is just poor argumentation. No one's saying the old system was any good, the entire discussion here is between the current system, which many people also don't like, and a different system entirely. A middle ground between the things being actually discussed would be a good solution and a valuable suggestion)

    Combat and hunting are hugely important parts of the game. Almost everyone interacts with them to some extent. To say that interesting racial rp should mandate taking substantial mechanical penalties seems like a fairly poor idea, as it only discourages people from being involved in both. 

    If you want to play Achaea purely as a numbers game, you can already do that. If you want to roleplay the strengths and weaknesses of your race, you can already do that. The current system only encourages the first, however.

    Minifie
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2016
    Nakari said:
    Things are better under the current system, somewhat, but the fundamental flaws are still there. People are still routinely picking races because it's mechanically better, rather then because the lore/rp interests them. That only detracts from the sort of racial roleplay people are defending in this thread, rather then enhancing it. (And calling it a middle ground is just poor argumentation. No one's saying the old system was any good, the entire discussion here is between the current system, which many people also don't like, and a different system entirely. A middle ground between the things being actually discussed would be a good solution and a valuable suggestion)

    Combat and hunting are hugely important parts of the game. Almost everyone interacts with them to some extent. To say that interesting racial rp should mandate taking substantial mechanical penalties seems like a fairly poor idea, as it only discourages people from being involved in both. 

    If you want to play Achaea purely as a numbers game, you can already do that. If you want to roleplay the strengths and weaknesses of your race, you can already do that. The current system only encourages the first, however.
    Do you really think the availability of, say, a point buy system or flat stats for everyone make them suddenly give up the overbearing need to min-max in order to win at pvp, and instead spark a lovely interest in racial roleplay? 

    ETA: I'm really not trying to be snarky, though I realize it might sound like it. Legit curious. 
  • NakariNakari Member Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I don't think it'll reduce the minmaxing, I think it'll separate the minmaxing from racial choice almost entirely. I don't think that it's ever going to be possible to make people not want to maximize their stats, but allowing them to engage in the roleplay they find interesting at the same time would, I think, make interest in racial rp more likely, yes.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,402 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    They's just go after the most useful talent. I.e. human crit bonus, xorani self tinderbox, Mhuns celerity.
    AnedhelAhmet
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    They's just go after the most useful talent. I.e. human crit bonus, xorani self tinderbox, Mhuns celerity.
    And that's something else people seem to be ignoring when demanding (yes, that's the impression given by the way in which it's being asked for) standard stats cross-race, the other effects that race has.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    Anedhel
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No reason not to be an Atavian and get yourself flying without having to buy a mount/artefact, forreal :D 
  • NakariNakari Member Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Klendathu said:
    Tahquil said:
    They's just go after the most useful talent. I.e. human crit bonus, xorani self tinderbox, Mhuns celerity.
    And that's something else people seem to be ignoring when demanding (yes, that's the impression given by the way in which it's being asked for) standard stats cross-race, the other effects that race has.
    I'm not sure how stating the problems someone sees with something = demanding a change, but whatever.

    The problem is that stats aren't balanced around those bonuses. Atavian and horkval, despite having two of the best bonuses, also have stat boosts that make them optimal for certain classes. They're also pretty close to the only real outliers. Almost every racial bonus is exceptionally minor while still bringing equally otpimisable stats. Would that be something worth rebalancing? Of course it would, but that's a problem that exists in the current system, where atavian is strictly the best dexterity race by the same argument.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,402 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mhun extra movement isn't minor if your chasing/fleeing. It's saved my ass more than a few times.
  • GrandueGrandue Member Posts: 382 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I want to be a Siren. 

    I want to be a male Siren. It isn't fair that I have to RP being a female just so I can be a Siren. I want to bloodline with both male and female partners. Change the lore and redesign the sex of our characters to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world. It isn't fair that the strongest Troll in the world is stronger than the strongest Siren. Change the lore and redesign racial stats so that it is just a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world but I'm not interested in beguiling people and instead would rather have wings. It isn't fair that I have to RP being an Atavian just to get wings. Change the lore and design racial traits to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so that I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a Mhaldorian male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world with natural wings and be a Priest. It isn't fair that I have to RP being Targossian just to be a priest. Change the lore and design all classes to just be skins that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a fallen God who still has access to all of his/her divine abilities and it a mix of all races at the same time and has an alternating background that changes whenever I wish it to and....

    I want to be a maggot that is 20 feet tall and is more intelligent than the most intelligent Grook in the world and has Atavian wings and is gender neutral and is an Eleusian Infernal. 

    The world, even a fantasy world like Achaea, has boundaries. You live within them, not redefine them. 
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,432 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Grandue said:
    I want to be a Siren. 

    I want to be a male Siren. It isn't fair that I have to RP being a female just so I can be a Siren. I want to bloodline with both male and female partners. Change the lore and redesign the sex of our characters to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world. It isn't fair that the strongest Troll in the world is stronger than the strongest Siren. Change the lore and redesign racial stats so that it is just a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world but I'm not interested in beguiling people and instead would rather have wings. It isn't fair that I have to RP being an Atavian just to get wings. Change the lore and design racial traits to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so that I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a Mhaldorian male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world with natural wings and be a Priest. It isn't fair that I have to RP being Targossian just to be a priest. Change the lore and design all classes to just be skins that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a fallen God who still has access to all of his/her divine abilities and it a mix of all races at the same time and has an alternating background that changes whenever I wish it to and....

    I want to be a maggot that is 20 feet tall and is more intelligent than the most intelligent Grook in the world and has Atavian wings and is gender neutral and is an Eleusian Infernal. 

    The world, even a fantasy world like Achaea, has boundaries. You live within them, not redefine them. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Minifie said:
    Grandue said:
    I want to be a Siren. 

    I want to be a male Siren. It isn't fair that I have to RP being a female just so I can be a Siren. I want to bloodline with both male and female partners. Change the lore and redesign the sex of our characters to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world. It isn't fair that the strongest Troll in the world is stronger than the strongest Siren. Change the lore and redesign racial stats so that it is just a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world but I'm not interested in beguiling people and instead would rather have wings. It isn't fair that I have to RP being an Atavian just to get wings. Change the lore and design racial traits to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so that I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a Mhaldorian male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world with natural wings and be a Priest. It isn't fair that I have to RP being Targossian just to be a priest. Change the lore and design all classes to just be skins that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a fallen God who still has access to all of his/her divine abilities and it a mix of all races at the same time and has an alternating background that changes whenever I wish it to and....

    I want to be a maggot that is 20 feet tall and is more intelligent than the most intelligent Grook in the world and has Atavian wings and is gender neutral and is an Eleusian Infernal. 

    The world, even a fantasy world like Achaea, has boundaries. You live within them, not redefine them. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    Isn't that a terrible Nicholas Cage movie?
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,432 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xaden said:
    Minifie said:
    Grandue said:
    I want to be a Siren. 

    I want to be a male Siren. It isn't fair that I have to RP being a female just so I can be a Siren. I want to bloodline with both male and female partners. Change the lore and redesign the sex of our characters to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world. It isn't fair that the strongest Troll in the world is stronger than the strongest Siren. Change the lore and redesign racial stats so that it is just a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world but I'm not interested in beguiling people and instead would rather have wings. It isn't fair that I have to RP being an Atavian just to get wings. Change the lore and design racial traits to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so that I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a Mhaldorian male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world with natural wings and be a Priest. It isn't fair that I have to RP being Targossian just to be a priest. Change the lore and design all classes to just be skins that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a fallen God who still has access to all of his/her divine abilities and it a mix of all races at the same time and has an alternating background that changes whenever I wish it to and....

    I want to be a maggot that is 20 feet tall and is more intelligent than the most intelligent Grook in the world and has Atavian wings and is gender neutral and is an Eleusian Infernal. 

    The world, even a fantasy world like Achaea, has boundaries. You live within them, not redefine them. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    Isn't that a terrible Nicholas Cage movie?
    That was the wicker man! :D


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,093 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    Mhun extra movement isn't minor if your chasing/fleeing. It's saved my ass more than a few times.
    As a non-Mhun with the armband of celerity who runs like a bitch more often than she cares to admit, I can confirm this. Once you get used to it, you'really not sure how you dealt without it.
  • GrandueGrandue Member Posts: 382 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Minifie said:
    Grandue said:
    I want to be a Siren. 

    I want to be a male Siren. It isn't fair that I have to RP being a female just so I can be a Siren. I want to bloodline with both male and female partners. Change the lore and redesign the sex of our characters to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world. It isn't fair that the strongest Troll in the world is stronger than the strongest Siren. Change the lore and redesign racial stats so that it is just a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world but I'm not interested in beguiling people and instead would rather have wings. It isn't fair that I have to RP being an Atavian just to get wings. Change the lore and design racial traits to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so that I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a Mhaldorian male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world with natural wings and be a Priest. It isn't fair that I have to RP being Targossian just to be a priest. Change the lore and design all classes to just be skins that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a fallen God who still has access to all of his/her divine abilities and it a mix of all races at the same time and has an alternating background that changes whenever I wish it to and....

    I want to be a maggot that is 20 feet tall and is more intelligent than the most intelligent Grook in the world and has Atavian wings and is gender neutral and is an Eleusian Infernal. 

    The world, even a fantasy world like Achaea, has boundaries. You live within them, not redefine them. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    Not, not a straw man argument. Just an example of where this argument takes you.

    Ideas are like train tracks. They take you somewhere. You don't have the freedom to go wherever you want once you hop on that train, you go where the tracks (idea) takes you. This idea that stats should be completely separate from the lore and design of the race and that it should be impossible for the strongest Troll to be stronger than the strongest Siren is an idea that will take you somewhere that isn't good.
    Skarash
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,432 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Grandue said:
    Minifie said:
    Grandue said:
    I want to be a Siren. 

    I want to be a male Siren. It isn't fair that I have to RP being a female just so I can be a Siren. I want to bloodline with both male and female partners. Change the lore and redesign the sex of our characters to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world. It isn't fair that the strongest Troll in the world is stronger than the strongest Siren. Change the lore and redesign racial stats so that it is just a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world but I'm not interested in beguiling people and instead would rather have wings. It isn't fair that I have to RP being an Atavian just to get wings. Change the lore and design racial traits to just be a skin that doesn't restrict me mechanically so that I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a Mhaldorian male Siren that is as strong as the absolutely strongest Troll in the world with natural wings and be a Priest. It isn't fair that I have to RP being Targossian just to be a priest. Change the lore and design all classes to just be skins that doesn't restrict me mechanically so I can RP however I want. Gimme gimme gimme!

    I want to be a fallen God who still has access to all of his/her divine abilities and it a mix of all races at the same time and has an alternating background that changes whenever I wish it to and....

    I want to be a maggot that is 20 feet tall and is more intelligent than the most intelligent Grook in the world and has Atavian wings and is gender neutral and is an Eleusian Infernal. 

    The world, even a fantasy world like Achaea, has boundaries. You live within them, not redefine them. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    Not, not a straw man argument. Just an example of where this argument takes you.

    Ideas are like train tracks. They take you somewhere. You don't have the freedom to go wherever you want once you hop on that train, you go where the tracks (idea) takes you. This idea that stats should be completely separate from the lore and design of the race and that it should be impossible for the strongest Troll to be stronger than the strongest Siren is an idea that will take you somewhere that isn't good.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

    Once again, My argument is opening up so the races get access to (2) specialise stat fields, as above:

    Statistics for this race:
    Specialisation      Str.        Dex.        Con.        Int.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Unspecialised       11          12          12          13
    Fury                13          12          12          12
    Enticer             10          15          11          13
    Guardian            11          11          14          13
    Sorceress           10          12          12          15


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • NakariNakari Member Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    Mhun extra movement isn't minor if your chasing/fleeing. It's saved my ass more than a few times.
    Yeah, you're totally right, I'd just forgotten about it. 3 races have strong abilities, then. If it's a problem, then I feel like actually giving them a one point penalty could be fair, as a tradeoff, or something like that (assuming other racials couldn't be made equally as useful). That way you're effectively trading one artie for another.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,402 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ... do you mean below?
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