Custom Racial Stats

Grandue

if you want to be a troll, be a troll. If you want to be a grook, be a grook. If you want to be a siren, be a siren. If you want to be a 230 pound beefcake siren who is just as strong as the strongest troll with the exact same amount of health, news flash, you don't want to be a Siren, you want to be a Troll who identifies as a Siren. Just be a god damned troll. If you want to be a scrawny, brainy troll who's intellect rivals the smartest and most scholarly Grook, just be a Grook. If you want to min/max to squeeze out that extra bit of strength or intelligence because you're playing a numbers game instead of a role playing game then, yeah, you're going to have to give up some kind of realism and I think that the player should be the one that pays that price not the rest of the people in the game. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. Let Trolls be the brutes, let grooks be the scholars, let mhuns be the lithe ones, giving every race the same stats ruins them. When you change the definition of something or allow the definition to be subjective on a person to person basis you render it meaningless. 

Kiet

"Realism" arguments in a game with dragons and where people go say 'sup' to thoth daily is pretty silly.

Ahmet

Kiet said:

"Realism" arguments in a game with dragons and where people go say 'sup' to thoth daily is pretty silly.

"Realism" within the realm of Achaea. Visiting thoth when you die is a part of life in Achaea. Trolls that are intelligent as the smartest grooks? Not a part of life in Achaea.

Linton

Grandue said:

if you want to be a troll, be a troll. If you want to be a grook, be a grook. If you want to be a siren, be a siren. If you want to be a 230 pound beefcake siren who is just as strong as the strongest troll with the exact same amount of health, news flash, you don't want to be a Siren, you want to be a Troll who identifies as a Siren. Just be a god damned troll. If you want to be a scrawny, brainy troll who's intellect rivals the smartest and most scholarly Grook, just be a Grook. If you want to min/max to squeeze out that extra bit of strength or intelligence because you're playing a numbers game instead of a role playing game then, yeah, you're going to have to give up some kind of realism and I think that the player should be the one that pays that price not the rest of the people in the game. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. Let Trolls be the brutes, let grooks be the scholars, let mhuns be the lithe ones, giving every race the same stats ruins them. When you change the definition of something or allow the definition to be subjective on a person to person basis you render it meaningless. 

I find this abit unfair for those who supports it. I am all for each of us playing the game as a roleplay game. However many of us have shifted towards more towards the numbers game now because the game has evolved that way over the years, even if our minds haven't really caught up with the fact. Even just recently, we had a debate in some other thread about whether Achaea is supposed to roleplay required between players and admin.   

Kiet

Ahmet said:

Kiet said:

"Realism" arguments in a game with dragons and where people go say 'sup' to thoth daily is pretty silly.

"Realism" within the realm of Achaea. Visiting thoth when you die is a part of life in Achaea. Trolls that are intelligent as the smartest grooks? Not a part of life in Achaea.

Somewhere in old help files it stated clearly that the Int stat is more magical aptitude than actual ability for intelligence.

Unless grooks are going to start roleplaying they can't even lift their staff without heaving and trolls are going to start roleplaying they can't do basic math, I'm not buying the 'realism' argument either

Nakari

As has been noted, though, no one really tries to roleplay themselves as dumber/smarter or more/less good at arguments or theology or whatever because of their race. And of course they don't, it would be impossible and frustrating. And what, would you then get x% better at those indicators of intelligence because you bought a sash?

Pretending that these numbers matter in non combat in situations is pretty silly. And if you want to play a smart troll (like kasmarkin senators? Quornok witchdoctors?), a strong at avian (royal guards?) or whatever, you should be able to do that without it limiting your ability to get involved in one of the most important parts of the game. 

I understand the theoretical appeal of stat differences helping to create roleplay, but in practice that doesn't happen. People who are combatants just feel like they should roleplay something they don't want to be that much (which makes more people of a given race who aren't interested in the roleplay of a race), and people who are playing a suboptimal race are just going to have a harder time getting involved in combat. Unless, of course, you can just make it back with arties, which just turns being able to engage in the rp and the combat one likes a monetary luxury.

Also, people aren't asking because they want to play a scrawny, brainy super smart troll or a beefcake siren. They just want to be able to participate in combat without being penalized for choosing rp that they like.

There's an appeal, but it's just not how the game works right now. One of Targossas' foremost intellectuals is a troll knight, and that doesn't mean that all the sirens out there are necessarily smarter then he is. People are defending a benefit that just doesn't actually exist. 

Aegoth

just allow male sirens pls

Kayeil

I dunno. I think, for example, a race like Siren should be slightly more playable for a strength specialised class, but not AS strong as some others. I mean, you're going to see female body builders... who are an exception amongst the majority of the female populace, but there are always going to be those male body builders who still can lift even more than they can. Siren has no set "type" of beauty, as it is said ideas of beauty vary from village to village (or city to city). So who knows, there could very well be a small group of Sirens who think it's beautiful to be toned with a lot of muscle.

Atalkez

Grandue said:

Let Trolls be the brutes, let grooks be the scholars, let mhuns be the lithe ones, giving every race the same stats ruins them. When you change the definition of something or allow the definition to be subjective on a person to person basis you render it meaningless. 

By this logic, all stat arties should be deleted because they make that Siren beefy, or they make the Troll have high Int. I'm not sure how you render it meaningless by changing stats that ONLY affect hunting and PvP. As was mentioned before, one of the more intellectuals portrayed in the game is a Troll, which is supposed to be the idiot race.

Your argument is flawed and disingenuous to the actual topic. You seem to be arguing for realism, when the current situation is anything but. I don't believe a person should mechanically be limited more than another person, because they want to play a female character (Siren) instead of something mechanically more efficient. 

Tecton mentioned in the Q+A thread that he didn't want to see the game head down the path of "X is 5% more efficient, and thus better to use" for everything - so why do we do it for races?

Frederich

>More intellectual's portayed in the game.
>Targossas

Nice joke.  Anywho, the way I see artefacts, and bear with me here... is like legend of zelda items.  They don't make your body suddenly grow 5 sizes that day, hell they don't even change how you actually look.  They're the heavy gauntlets that let you pick up gigantic stones to fling around.  A sash?  It helps amplify your magic/whatever.  Those pixie boots?  REALLY GOD DAMN NICE FITTING BOOTS MADE BY THE DIVINE(tm).  Oh right, that belt?  Uhh......

It.. makes you feel like a mule???

Hell if I know.  Anyways, the idea that your artefacts are beefing you up with roid-rage is kind of silly.

I could also see some Sirens actually being as strong as Trolls in some instances, especially if they have a neat RP way.  Sure, they're female and of tinier build.  They're 'smarter' though, and also have a slightly better leaning towards magic.  Magical augmentation of their strength is a thing...

So I'm down for this, even if as a dwarf my stats are sort of optimized(tm) for a monk.  14 STR/15 con/11 dex/int

Atalkez

Frederich said:

>More intellectual's portayed in the game.
>Targossas
Nice joke.

Forum RP is serious business for you, huh?

Should look Aodfionn up IG. Rarely disappoints.

Nakari

I feel like there's an outrider's joke to be made here. More seriously:

Frederich said:

Hell if I know.  Anyways, the idea that your artefacts are beefing you up with roid-rage is kind of silly.

That wasn't the claim, though, since no one that I've ever seen would roleplay it that way. The point is that since arties raise your stats, in terms of the supposedly roleplayed strength/constitution/dexterity those create we'd end up with lots of super strong sirens and super smart trolls anyways, thus making the racial differences rather moot.

Frederich

Atalkez said:

Frederich said:

>More intellectual's portayed in the game.
>Targossas
Nice joke.

Forum RP is serious business for you, huh?

Should look Aodfionn up IG. Rarely disappoints.

Whoops.  Forgot to add in the part at the end.  I'm still pretty damn tired, it was meant to be kind of joking.  Targossas has it's faults but it's as a whole okay.

Moving on to what Nakari said.  Yeah, pretty true.  In the end, Artefacts just sort of bitchslap any semblance of racial stats because "My wallet is bigger than yours" a lot of the time.  (or you KNOW someone who's wallet is bigger than your own and mooch)

Kiet

Atalkez said:

Frederich said:

>More intellectual's portayed in the game.
>Targossas
Nice joke.

Forum RP is serious business for you, huh?

Should look Aodfionn up IG. Rarely disappoints.

And Aodfionn is a pretty good example of why the 'omg realistic stats' argument is terrible. He's a troll, after all, and here he is using big words and writing!

Antonius

Wasn't Aodfionn originally pretty dumb when he moved to Targossas or am I thinking of somebody else?

Kiet

Yes, according to a log I recently read. And then he got better I guess

Aerek

It's stated in the HELPs that intelligence doesn't refer to intellectual capacity, just magical aptitude. People should stop using that talking point.

"Realism" isn't the best argument in a fantasy game, but "immersion" is a valid one. If the game describes Trolls as stronger than other races, Grooks as more magically apt than other races, and humans as average, etc, but the game's mechanics mean that none of that is actually true and every race is equal in potential, then it's hard to suspend one's disbelief and be immersed in that narrative. Like roleplaying a great warrior without actually being able to fight, you can't expect anyone to take that seriously if the reality of the situation exposes it as false.

Nakari said:

Pretending that these numbers matter in non combat in situations is pretty silly...[People] just want to be able to participate in combat without being penalized for choosing rp that they like.

This is the core of the argument that I don't like. It implies that the "RP" side and the "mechanics" side of Achaea don't interact, and I disagree with that mentality. Game mechanics are the "laws of physics" of the land, not OOC elements that we can/should ignore when building a character. You shouldn't expect the game to re-write the laws of physics just so you can roleplay a sickly, 3ft tall Grook, but also have the strongest AXK in all the land. That's a character narrative that doesn't make sense; that's not your RP being "limited" by the game mechanics, its your RP being unreasonable and trying to have it both ways.

People are really overstating the "penalties" of race choice in the current system. For each class, there are -2- races that I would not select. (The ones with penalties in the class' key stat) But the other -10- races available for each class are perfectly playable. I play Human Runewarden, not Troll, and I am in no way penalized or victimized by that decision. My Disembowel with 18 STR (base + Fury/Jera) hits for 85% max health after class bonuses to Trolls' 89%. These differences are noticeable, sure, but they're not so large as to be insurmountable. Even Atavian knights, with 16, still hit for 79% max health, that can still kill people with reasonable odds. The difference of 2 stat points are really not the huge deal folks are making them out to be.

Different races being -marginally- better than others at given classes is part of an interesting, diverse world where our decisions and RP choices have meaningful impact on our experience. There's nothing wrong with that, and I would dislike it if race became just a "skin" that had no bearing on the game.

Kiet

I made the int argument earlier, but that just seems like an obvious copout so people don't have to limit themselves because, hey, roleplaying actual low stats isn't fun for most people. Unless all y'all with 11 dex are emoting stumbling and tripping over yourselves on a regular basis, I'm not convinced.

Atalkez

Actually, I think you are wrong about Int being magical aptitude, not intelligence.

A race of humanoid amphibians, the grook seem to be a fairly recent race, perhaps produced via 

experimentation with powerful magic. They have no memory of their origin in any case, and their only 

known settlement of note is upon the island of Ulangi.

Grooks are the most intelligent of the mortal races and exhibit many frog-like features. Standing 

around five feet tall with slender builds, their eyes are typically round or bulbous, found in all 

colours. Their skin ranges in hue from green to blue and from pale to dark, and their hands and feet 

may be webbed to varying degrees.

Statistics for this race:

Specialisation      Str.        Dex.        Con.        Int.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Unspecialised       11          12          12          13

Warrior             13          12          12          12

Relegate            11          14          11          13

Warden              11          11          14          13

Scholar             10          12          12          15

The racial home of the trolls originates deep in the swamps south of the Savannah, though the race 

has since spread far from the fabled city of Kasmarkin. Descended from the legendary giant Gruul and 

a human woman, physically they have a metabolism completely different from humans and are only 

slightly less intelligent. Their dependence on their physical gifts has, however, made them less 

magically adept than other races. Nevertheless, during the Wars of Succession, troll mercenary 

legions were said to contain mages, thus disproving the theory held by many that trolls are not 

intelligent enough to wield magic. In modern times, trolls have often been the generals of armies 

for their aggressive nature serves them well in war.

Trolls are large, slender humanoids with great physical prowess, with most reaching a mature height 

of seven feet or more. They often have strong or heavy facial features, coupled with a hulking or 

burly stature that can contribute to an unfavourable stereotype. Their skin has a grey cast to it, 

sometimes greenish in tone, although very human-like shades have been seen. Consistent with their 

human ancestry, their hair and eye colour spans a broad range, though yellow eyes - unusual in 

humans - are common among trolls.

Statistics for this race:

Specialisation      Str.        Dex.        Con.        Int.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Unspecialised       13          12          12          11

Mercenary           15          12          12          10

Interceptor         13          14          11          11

Defender            13          11          14          11

Seer                12          12          12          13

Trolls have 1 less Int than humans as a base. So from the very descriptions of the races, Int = Intelligence, not magical aptitude.

I don't see any real reason why a Troll should be any less equipped to be a Magi than a Grook. If you don't want ot make races just a skin, that's understandable, but you can't forget the racials that they do have. Horkval gets leap, Troll gets electric resist/stun chance. 

We could easily alter those racial advantages to be more potent if we made stat-packs independent of race.

Frederich

There have been troll magi before.  As evident in how they joined the mortal races (or so i've read).  They had a group of TROLL SORCERORS (might have just been mages) that imprisoned Taug.. so.

Every race has the capability to be a class.  Some are just not as suited for it as others.

Like Satyrs.  Poor guys.

Antonius

Uh, what? Satyr is one of the best choices for strength using classes...

Valkyn

As much as I love Atavian, having more than 3 choices of race would be kind of neat, which is essentially what it boils down to.

Magic classes are even more screwed, with only 1 choice for 12 con/13 int base for males.

Valkyn

@Aerek comparing one heavily artied race to another is all well and fine, but when you have to buy a 1250cr artie to get to the same level as the other race's base?

Aerek

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Nothing I posted assumes artefacts of any kind.

Valkyn

How do you get 16 Str as Atavian without arties?

Oh, I see you're talking Runie exclusively.

Nakari

Aerek said:

It's stated in the HELPs that intelligence doesn't refer to intellectual capacity, just magical aptitude. People should stop using that talking point.

Can we just decide that strength is "melee combat aptitude" then? This is even sillier if we can only really talk about strength as the one stat that's particularly roleplayable (It's hard to act healthier then other people in a game with magical curatives and where you get max health through mass murder, and no one really seems to roleplay how dextrous they are).

And the mechanics already allow for me to play a sickly, 3-foot tall troll with emaciated muscles and whatever, and then mechanically have the highest base strength possible. Other then the choice of what race you are (which can then be interpreted in many ways), there's no link between stat mechanics and roleplay already.

Arguing that the stats aren't that important is silly. There's a reason why people want stat-boosting artifacts, and the difference between optimal and suboptimal is 1250 credits. If that wasn't significant, people wouldn't be buying and recommending artifacts just for the higher dsb damage and such. Maybe you haven't been in the position of wondering if you should reincarnate for a 500-1250 credit bonus, but lots of people both consider it and have it recommended do them because it's undeniably the best option, combat-wise. To do otherwise is to accept penalties for the sake of racial rp. 

It's cool when races have mechanical differences, but making them so that the differences are only in combat effectiveness just undermines races having roleplayed differences for no real benefit.

Anedhel

That's more a function of lazy roleplaying than badly thought-out opportunities for roleplay, I feel.

For instance, Anedhel's 5'7 and can disembowel you more painfully than a stock troll, but I explain it IC as being totally committed to offence, while his defence suffers (oh, the pains of having a Tsol'aa's constitution). I also happen to have given him low pain tolerance (ask Skye, she's so mean ) and a few other hints of his low constitution. 

Numbers don't ever -really- translate to roleplaying situations well. Does the difference between 17 and 18 intelligence mean you can count to 1,999,999 but not 2,000,000? No, it just means you have an edge in certain things, and suffer in other areas. I really do like that even if someone's a three-foot-tall, emaciated, sickly troll, they might have a bigger disembowel than Anedhel, because it allows for the exploration of why. That's something we shouldn't take for granted! 

A one-point difference in stats can make a difference, I totally agree (specially for certain classes, and without artefacts, like serpent). Most of the time, it's not such a big deal. However, the mechanical disadvantage you take gives you a way to engage with the world around your character in a pretty great way, and it should make choosing a race a meaningful thing. Like I said before, I'm happy I had to make a conscious decision to take a hit of a point in strength by picking Tsol'aa over, say, Xoran. It gives me fuel and a reason to make my character's race a bigger part of that persona, and that's absolutely, one hundred percent worth missing out on that +1!

Nakari

Anedhel said:

For instance, Anedhel's 5'7 and can disembowel you more painfully than a stock troll, but I explain it IC as being totally committed to offence, while his defence suffers (oh, the pains of having a Tsol'aa's constitution). I also happen to have given him low pain tolerance (ask Skye, she's so mean ) and a few other hints of his low constitution. 

That's the thing, though, the interesting part comes from how we roleplay the differences that the races supposedly have, which is basically independent from stats. I could grab an artie and pretend to be a siren as strong as a troll, or I could, like you, come up with an interesting explanation for why, but even then, it's all in roleplay. 

In the current system, doing any of that's totally optional, though. The rp is independent of the stats.

Also, not sure where you're getting that intelligence is only about magic, @Aerek. HELP STATS lists all the stats in only their combat functions.

Anedhel

Given how the average height in Achaea is like six foot two (counting Micaelis :O), average bra cup size is like DD, no one can bench press less than a thousand pounds already, etc., etc., I think not having any kind of mechanical imposition is just going to lead to more of that (the land of the flawless and super-special)  

ETA: I'll add something a little more illuminating, hopefully. This is a bit like a discussion a while ago we had, where someone said that, even if roleplay is all in the imagination, I can't roleplay being Achaea's best fighter without BEING Achaea's best fighter. And rightfully so. Yes, someone can have a laugh and play a kitten-sized troll with a monster-sized axekick. But we shouldn't legislate according to the lowest and least involved. Rather, there -should- be advantages and disadvantages to race, because I really do think, from a roleplay perspective (again, only if you care, but that's the case for -anything-), that those limitations give you fuel to make your character more interesting. 

Tahquil

Part of good RP is being able to work with and alongside the canon of a game set out in either the rule book or by the DM.

Now, I haven't played D&D in earnest. I've sat through one session but I'm going to give it a go.

You wouldn't go into a D&D game, and say to your DM "I'm going to be an orc. A sneaky orc. I'm going to be as sneaky as a halfling." Most likely you'd be told no. You might get a compromise in stacking your char in a way that You're the sneakiest orc there is.. but in saying that you're probably only going to as sneaky as awfully clumsy halfling.

The admin/DMs have already taken steps to alleviate what was a gross disparity between the races. The introduction of statpacks means not everyone has to be a rajamalan to be effective as a knight or mhun to be a serpent. You can be effective as a knight or serpent in most races now.

SO which kind of D&D player are you? Roleplaying and accepting of game canon or do you play the numbers game.