Further Tuning of the Mark System

Jarrod

As we move past the point where multiple people were dropped from the Mark orgs, I think the new system has been out long enough to look at perceived problems (imo) and offer ways to tune the system to ideally work better for both contractors and Mark members.

Problems as I see them:
-As raised elsewhere, the supply of contracts vs the demand for contracts to even remain in the Mark orgs is very low.
-Still chance to get a 'worse' Mark if they happen to be faster to the board when you hire.
-Benefits for being higher ranked are minor (slightly higher gold, deathsight for #1).
-The rule for writs (24hr exclusivity, no reward, still punishment) leaves a very odd state for them
-Many people have no idea where to even hire
-People who want to use the Mark system as a 'free to attack' flag/RP point are arbitrarily kicked.

Potential solutions:
-Add denizen locations for hiring to the HELP scrolls, as opposed to just 'in the bars'
-Base cost for a contract is 5000
-Same rule for accepting contracts as now (time limits)
-All Marks can see base cost contracts
-You may spend additional gold when placing the contract at the rate:
 +Every additional 5000 gold increases the reputation required to see the contract by 3-4
 +Ex. 5000 gold = 100 reputation, 15000 gold = 106 reputation required (aka 1+ successful contracts)
-Make writs give reputation again at a lower rate and make them visible at any time, always 'base' contracts
-Mark members can do something to temporarily gain access to higher reputation contracts
 +This could be things like spend X gold to see higher rep (bribe the contract assigner) or accepting with the condition if they fail they're out of the Mark for X years
-Make a person's reputation, or relative reputation, visible to everyone
-The contract board should display required reputation to accept a contract, and display them all


This would make those who hire able to, with the more visible reputation, limit the pool of Marks that can see and accept their contract to already-successful Marks or those willing to invest value (gold/time/etc) to prove they're trying. This would likely result in a higher completion rate of the average contract, meaning people would be more willing to invest in contracts again.

Additionally, anyone would again be able to join the Mark without actually completing contracts, but the visibilty of their relative rank in Honours (He is a fledgling Assassin the Quisalis Mark. < if rep <= 100) means it cannot be used as a status symbol unless you actually complete contracts.

On the subject of writs, the change would still give benefit to Order members, as they would know when they would be going to the board, this maintains the Order benefit while not making it impossible for others to get those contracts, hence the addition of writ reputation, albeit at a lower amount.

Benefits of this proposed change:
-Anyone can join the Mark again for whatever reason they see fit without degrading the prestige/status of other Marks
-The person who hires can determine, at the time of hiring, how exclusive they want their contract to be.
-Writs are no longer limited to Order only, though they are still likely to go to Order members
-Fledgling Marks can, assuming increased rate of contracts in new system, invest otherwise to boost their initial reputation gain by risking something to try more exclusive contracts
-Assuming new honours lines are added, gives additional non-mechanical benefit to those who complete contracts, even if they're not #1


I don't think a system will ever be put in place where everyone is happy with every facet of the system, but I think these ideas move the system as a whole more in the direction people want without drastically changing how contracts are hired/claimed.

Elazar

This is a lot of what I wanted to hear.  My issues with current mark system:

 I had picked up a contract as often as possible.  I had only failed one contract while having maybe 5-8 active.  I had a few "time out" due to dormancy, other than those, I was actively pursuing my contracts.  However, I was removed from mark because "I had not killed anyone recently".  Yet I had active, open contracts...  

Secondly, I will not pick up a contract against an Eleusian with reason being they defiled a Deuca shrine.  So I spent maybe a week or two seeing the same contracts on the board, either Mhaldorians or ones that went against my beliefs. 

On top of all that, I was removed from mark for 10 years?  Thats like what, almost 6 irl months? All that seems pretty unfair when I was actively pursuing contracts (again, only failed ONE and the ones that timed out were ONLY dormant people) and there were no valid contracts to pick up...

Atalkez

Being able to let someone know you're about to hire, thereby allowing them to run to the board before the announce goes out should be addressed.

Would also like to see more reward for a completion, versus the downfall for failing. It's really easy to get dropped in a raid and lose 7-8 reputation on a contract that was only going to give 1-2 points anyway.

I like a lot of the ideas Jarrod put up there, and I -really- agree we need to allow people to be in without worrying about being kicked out for some reason so quickly. There are only 17 or so Marks in the Quisalis, and I hear there are only 9 left in Ivory. This is good for the contract portion of the Marks, but not the free-PK flag portion. Less people to fight!

In line with Jarrod's suggestion about making reputation visible, maybe a RANKINGS MARK QUISALIS or RANKINGS MARK IVORY command that allows you to see the current rankings, regardless of being a Mark or not.

Also when people were booted from the Marks, their contracts were not re-populated to the board. They just kind of sat there in limbo until the contract expired. This should also be addressed.

Kayeil

That's an awfully high cost just to try and get a better Mark. Could possibly be a deterrant to even bother hiring, making contracts even more rare.

Jarrod

Atalkez said:

Also when people were booted from the Marks, their contracts were not re-populated to the board. They just kind of sat there in limbo until the contract expired. This should also be addressed.

This bit seems like a bug that surfaced because nobody had been auto-kicked from the current system, not intent.

Atalkez said:

Being able to let someone know you're about to hire, thereby allowing them to run to the board before the announce goes out should be addressed.

I don't see a problem with this. The Mark system being accessible is the goal of these suggestions, people should have the option to assist a specific Mark getting the contract like Orders do if they want to.

Kayeil said:

That's an awfully high cost just to try and get a better Mark. Could possibly be a deterrant to even bother hiring, making contracts even more rare.

The initial price suggestion was just ballparking numbers, but I know people have spent significantly more to try and sway the system previously to assign to a higher ranked person. You -should- have to spend more to guarantee a higher ranked Mark if you don't have connections. It should be noted that even just bumping it up to 10k (a very low cost for people who know how to make gold) requires someone to have previously succeeded in at least one contract to be able to accept it by default.

Atalkez

Kayeil said:

That's an awfully high cost just to try and get a better Mark. Could possibly be a deterrant to even bother hiring, making contracts even more rare.

Considering right now that bounties pay out better than contracts, it's really not a high cost.

Hasar

Bounties are no risk though. Even if not completed I'm pretty sure the reward is retained by the city, unless that was changed.

Atalkez

Hasar said:

Bounties are no risk though. Even if not completed I'm pretty sure the reward is retained by the city, unless that was changed.

Sure but that system is being looked at as well.

Greys

Bear in mind also who is generally hiring or we want to hire with the costs. Most higher lvl people don't care enough about dying to ever want to hire. Cost is the reason I've never used the mark system. Never was anyone I wanted to die badly enough to spend a credit even if it was a sure thing.

Kayeil

I was keeping in mind the novices who get taken advantage of by thieves, or other people. The cost to them means a lot more.

Aereidhna

I like hiring on people for being jerks and will happily throw lots of money (50-100k or more) at a contract and have done so in the past. I have yet to see any results with the new system, only contracts I've had in the last several ic years have expired. From an outsider, non-mark perspective, I just want people to take all my money and kill mofos for me anything that will make this more likely to occur successfully would make me a happy customer. I know a lot of people like the anonymity of how things are done now, sometimes I wish I could just hire someone directly who I know reasonably well would get the job done though. 

Ahmet

Aereidhna said:

I like hiring on people for being jerks and will happily throw lots of money (50-100k or more) at a contract and have done so in the past. I have yet to see any results with the new system, only contracts I've had in the last several ic years have expired. From an outsider, non-mark perspective, I just want people to take all my money and kill mofos for me anything that will make this more likely to occur successfully would make me a happy customer. I know a lot of people like the anonymity of how things are done now, sometimes I wish I could just hire someone directly who I know reasonably well would get the job done though. 

I definitely agree with you. Like, if I drop 200k+ on a contract, it better fuckin be that person that shows up on MARKWHO taking my contract. Or at the very least one of his/her contenders.

Tahquil

Just to touch on one thing I saw:

People who want to use the Mark system as a 'free to attack' flag/RP point are arbitrarily kicked.

Perhaps we can make another organisation for this? A pure fight club style high clan for people to wear as a badge of honour and leave the marks to the marks. 

Obligatory - First rule of Fight Club HC, if it's your first night you HAVE to fight.

Klendathu

Where has this idea of being a member of Mark to flag as open PK being a badge of honour come from? I don't see it is a badge of honour, I see it as letting people know I'm open to being attacked. Honour has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Atalkez

Greys said:

Bear in mind also who is generally hiring or we want to hire with the costs. Most higher lvl people don't care enough about dying to ever want to hire. Cost is the reason I've never used the mark system. Never was anyone I wanted to die badly enough to spend a credit even if it was a sure thing.

As a higher level, how is 5,000 or 10,000 gold a "high cost" to you? Legitimately curious. I'm not even Dragon and can't gold farm like some of you can, and 10,000 gold is nothing.

Klendathu said:

Where has this idea of being a member of Mark to flag as open PK being a badge of honour come from? I don't see it is a badge of honour, I see it as letting people know I'm open to being attacked. Honour has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The idea is that 10% of the populace is even willing to be a Mark, so it's a badge of honour because you are one of the few. Not Honour in the sense of knights yadda yadda.

@Jarrod wasn't part of this change done to stop people from being able to select their own Mark? What is the point of the board if you can still "tell x go to board" and get the exact Mark you want anyway?

Tahquil

@Klendathu : Sorry I'll rephrase. Let marks be marks who take contracts and a new org allow people to wear tin badges saying "Now open for PK Rapings!" You could assign them to different ranks by what rules they play by.

Elazar

Tahquil said:

.... and a new org allow people to wear tin badges saying "Now open for PK Rapings!" 

So you mean being infamous?

Klendathu

Elazar said:

Tahquil said:

.... and a new org allow people to wear tin badges saying "Now open for PK Rapings!" 

So you mean being infamous?

Not the same thing. People become open PK because they perform actions that generate infamy, but there are those who would choose to be open PK without doing the infamy generating actions.

Jarrod

Also worth noting that Infamy only opens you to attack by Mark members, not everyone.

Atalkez said:
@Jarrod wasn't part of this change done to stop people from being able to select their own Mark? What is the point of the board if you can still "tell x go to board" and get the exact Mark you want anyway?

The primary purpose, as far as I'm aware, was to make the Mark system more meaningful and accessible. Even if people tell their favorite Mark that they're  going to hire, it's always possible for someone else to take the contract (assuming they're eligible reputation-wise in my suggestion). If they wanted to remove the ability it would be exceedingly simple in any system, just put a 30s delay between the announcement and the contract being available. I don't think this is necessary but it's an exceptionally minor thing to adjust.

Tesha

Infamy makes you open to attack to other infamous people too. There are really easy ways to gain infamy, too. That way you can be open-pk to those who want to attack you, and not take contracts from people who have been more successful at completing them, for whatever reason. There's definitely a difference between people who want to be marks and people who just want to gank/group pvp. It's good that they're separate now. 

Kayeil

Perhaps a pkwho like rpwho so people can flag themselves as willing to do pk? But it also gives them the option to turn it off for a bit if they're really just not in the mood one day.

Tecton

Jarrod said:

Also worth noting that Infamy only opens you to attack by Mark members, not everyone.

Atalkez said:
@Jarrod wasn't part of this change done to stop people from being able to select their own Mark? What is the point of the board if you can still "tell x go to board" and get the exact Mark you want anyway?

The primary purpose, as far as I'm aware, was to make the Mark system more meaningful and accessible. Even if people tell their favorite Mark that they're  going to hire, it's always possible for someone else to take the contract (assuming they're eligible reputation-wise in my suggestion). If they wanted to remove the ability it would be exceedingly simple in any system, just put a 30s delay between the announcement and the contract being available. I don't think this is necessary but it's an exceptionally minor thing to adjust.

This is already the case (the delay).

Jarrod

Any thoughts on the rest of this big T?

I vaguely remembered mention of a delay, but wasn't sure so didn't want to make a wrong claim.

Tecton

We're definitely open to further tweaks and iterations to the system, and are continually monitoring the usage for improvements. This is especially so now that the first inactivity purge is done and we're down to the people actively taking contracts. I do feel like we need some alternative system for those who want to be open pk but not necessarily being a champion/assassin.

Atalkez

Need more available contracts

Tecton

That's not something I can provide!

Jarrod

Idk if this would fit with how you want the system to work @Tecton, but a short term change might be:

If you have an active contract, time only counts towards being kicked from the Mark if the time is counting down on the contract.

This would prevent you from finally getting a contract on someone who's mostly dormant/never leaves city and still getting removed from the Mark because they're never in an reasonably attackable place (which the contract supports by not ticking down).

Tael

For open-PK, I think it would be really nice to have something like RPWHO rather than an org.

The problem would be people toggling it off to avoid a fight they started or invited. But we already have a rule for how long you should have to wait before leaving to avoid it being considered logging out to run away. So let's just use that!

So you can just do PKWHO and it puts your name on the list. If you want to do PKWHO OFF, you have to wait the standard amount of time before your name actually gets removed and being attacked or taking an aggressive action toward a player requires you to do PKWHO OFF again (and wait the full length of time again). Edit: You would still be able to do actions while waiting to be removed, no point in making it a "channel" like, say, implanting.

Austere

I really miss the old days of mark when you just  joined and all the other marks made it their job to wreck you.  It made filtering out the scrubs much easier.  What happened to those days? 

Greys

@Atalkez Its not that I couldn't afford it. Its that the person being dead isn't worth that much gold to me. Its all the other things that I could spend the gold on versus paying someone to kill someone? Most likely cost would have to be halved before Greys would be interested.

Atalkez

Austere said:

I really miss the old days of mark when you just  joined and all the other marks made it their job to wreck you.  It made filtering out the scrubs much easier.  What happened to those days? 

They all hide inside their cities now for some reason. 90% of the Marks I find in Annwyn run the moment I show up to attack.