Commodity Market Tweak

Sarapis

Jules, I'm getting pretty tired of you attempting to drag thread after thread off-topic in order that you can have a platform to voice whatever your agenda-of-the-day is. Consider that a formal warning.

Jules

God forbid someone should fire back at you when you engage in forum trolling as an admin/owner. 

Sarapis

I think you mistake why I fired back. It's because you, once again, had attempted to drag the thread off-topic so that you could bring up your irrelevant-to-this-thread agenda.

If you continue doing it, you're going to be forum banned.

Jules

No, I responded to Sybilla and cordially said in effect "yeah, okay, I'm out".  You, unable to resist being snarky, engaged in being snarky.  When I had the audacity to fire back, "Jules, keep it up and you gonna get banned".

Sarapis

Interpret it how you wish as long as you stop trying to drag threads off-topic to promote whatever your current agenda is.

Trey

Tahquil said:

Pay 10% of the appointed price just to stick them up there. Get it back when you sell the comms and lose it if you take the comms off the market.

Back on topic - I enjoy this idea. It's not quite like the bank's withdrawal fees for gold, but similar enough that it makes sense that the rule exists for the service. More importantly, it won't penalize people using it for its intended purpose, which was my main concern in regards to a solution.

Khaibit

I am not sure I like the idea of a fee, even a returnable one, I can see it putting people off using the comm market and I kind of like it being there for when I'm feeling lazy, or find another 500 lacquer in my rift I had forgotten (don't judge me, I impulse buy comms when I see them cheap!) But with lacquer as an example, selling anywhere from 350 to 700 gold a piece, depending on if someone is currently going for grand master thingy, it's quite a lot out of pocket up front, especially for those of us who try to carry very little gold with us (see, impulse buying comms.. my pretty.. pretty.. giant rift of things) And pretty much a killer for the poorer people who are using the market as a way to make money off their wandering talents, someone blowing their last few thousand on comms to turn a profit won't have the gold to hand to sell it. Which kind of sucks.

In short, I think it would be more punishing for those actually trying to sell items, rather than those using it as a storage.
 The comm market already returns things after a year if they're not sold, as stated earlier. 

Inuad

Khaibit said:

I am not sure I like the idea of a fee, even a returnable one, I can see it putting people off using the comm market and I kind of like it being there for when I'm feeling lazy, or find another 500 lacquer in my rift I had forgotten (don't judge me, I impulse buy comms when I see them cheap!) But with lacquer as an example, selling anywhere from 350 to 700 gold a piece, depending on if someone is currently going for grand master thingy, it's quite a lot out of pocket up front, especially for those of us who try to carry very little gold with us (see, impulse buying comms.. my pretty.. pretty.. giant rift of things) And pretty much a killer for the poorer people who are using the market as a way to make money off their wandering talents, someone blowing their last few thousand on comms to turn a profit won't have the gold to hand to sell it. Which kind of sucks.

In short, I think it would be more punishing for those actually trying to sell items, rather than those using it as a storage.
 The comm market already returns things after a year if they're not sold, as stated earlier. 

The fee incurred (whether returned or not; I prefer one where the fee is pocketed by Delos or the auction house or whatever is the actual in game thing) would not necessarily have to be 10%. It could be a small fee, say 5gp per commodity. It could also be something like 1% of what is sold. The fee could also be issued after the commodities are sold (in the case of commodities that are on the market too long and returned, perhaps a fee could be assessed before getting them back?)

If the fee is low enough, it shouldn't prevent people actually trying to sell items from doing so, and it would make sense for an in game auction house to charge a small fee for their services. It also helps in the scaling: if you're selling 100 wood, the fee (if you went with 5gp/comm) would be 500gp. If you're trying to store your extra 5000, the fee would be 25k. Obviously numbers could be adjusted as needed.

Tahquil

I just mentioned 10% because if your a person actually putting Comms into the market to sell hopefully it's low enough not to be a barrier (and you end up getting it back if you do sell, but even if you take your Comms off market its not a huge penalty)
i.e 1000 Comms at 40g = 4000g to put up and will more likely sell compared to 1000 Comms at 500g = 50000g to put up and probably will never sell putting the person out of pocket.

Katzchen

10% would put me off using the comm market. That's quite a bit of gold when you're looking at the bulk lots, it's either going to cut almost all your profit out, or push up comm prices.

Katzchen

If you buy wood at 24 (or was it 26?) gold per (which is the cheapest you can get it from denizens, and that's off shore) and you sell it at 40g per, that 10% just took away about 30% of your profit. If you get it from some of the other denizen shops? Could be up to 80%.

Tahquil

for Katz example: 
she tries to sells her 1000 wood at 40g.
if successful she'll get 40000g from the market.

what I propose is when she puts the 1000 wood up she will pay 10% holding fee (4000g) but if she successfully sells it is returned to her in the payout (4000g + 40000g =44000g which is what she would have begore anyway)

but it if she prices to high and it doesn't sell she Will lose that 10% paid if she choose to withdraw from the market.

tl:dr profits remain the same for selling but penalises people who price high or flood the market.

Katzchen

Yes, but if it's priced okay, and the market changes? You're then out 4000g, and you haven't sold your wood. This would be enough incentive to just skip using the comm market.

Katzchen

5% would seem more reasonable for sales on that scale, but when you get higher, like selling 500 laquer? That's still obscene risk.

Ahmet

Also, what if you're holding out for a decent price? This will force people to either sell low or have a high risk of losing their money.

Ahmet

Ahmet said:

Also, what if you're holding out for a decent price? This will force people to either sell low or have a high risk of losing their money.

And people will sell low.

Katzchen

Can't there just be a cap put on the market where you can't list comms for more than 200% of the current market average?

Jules

If it's really that big a deal, rather than changing this market in ways that I think WILL tend to push people away from actually using that market (in exactly the ways that several people have detailed), just tie the ability to sell to the player's available rift/vault capacity (so that there isn't an ability to use the market as overflow in the first place).   

Tharvis

Katzchen said:

Can't there just be a cap put on the market where you can't list comms for more than 200% of the current market average?

how would you handle the rare cases of everything being sold out, then?

Katzchen

Tharvis said:

Katzchen said:

Can't there just be a cap put on the market where you can't list comms for more than 200% of the current market average?

how would you handle the rare cases of everything being sold out, then?

What do you mean? The average value on the credit market seems to be taken from the last few sales. The only way I can see this being abused is if someone purposely sells a pile of stuff low to screw it over. This could be solved by not letting the market value drop below the lowest denizen price point.

Trey

Jules said:

If it's really that big a deal, rather than changing this market in ways that I think WILL tend to push people away from actually using that market (in exactly the ways that several people have detailed), just tie the ability to sell to the player's available rift/vault capacity (so that there isn't an ability to use the market as overflow in the first place).   

That.... huh. That isn't a bad idea. Thank you for contributing it.

Sarapis

Jules said:

If it's really that big a deal, rather than changing this market in ways that I think WILL tend to push people away from actually using that market (in exactly the ways that several people have detailed), just tie the ability to sell to the player's available rift/vault capacity (so that there isn't an ability to use the market as overflow in the first place).   

That's more like it, thank you.

That's the easiest idea for sure, but we had rejected it because it starts to cause some undesirable side effects, at least at current rift levels. For instance, if you were unartied and put 1000 wood for sale on the market, you'd not have enough rift space to save up enough additional wood even for a single room credit. 

Real commodity markets don't have this problem because the person selling the comms still has to pay for their storage, effectively, whereas here we don't have that issue. I actually considered building a system of warehouses that players could own and that would store comms for people at a small cost per comm, but scrapped it because having to pay storage fees was going to get too annoying.

To some other peoples' points, doing things by percentage (saying you can't sell for over X% of the rolling average market price) has problems in a volatile comm market where the market price is swinging a lot.

We could solve this problem by switching from a supply-side market to a demand-side market, where buyers put up orders and sellers then fulfill them rather than vice-versa, which would remove the need to store comms in the market. I don't really like that though, as comm buyers usually need/want comms right now, and comm sellers are in it to make money and so can wait a few hours or a day or whatever for someone to buy. (Of course, real comm and currency markets operate from both the sell and buy side, and match up orders when there's overlap, but I don't think we're going to get that complicated in Achaea.)

I'm also reluctant to impose any kind of listing fee because I don't want to drive any business off the system - it functions best when there's a lot of volume running through it.

Not sure yet what we'll do, but we definitely won't let people just store infinite comms on the commarket forever. It's not a giant emergency though either, on the other hand, so there's no urgency to figure out the solution right this second.

Trey

Agreed on all points, thanks for your input and explanation! 

Inuad

Sarapis said:

I'm also reluctant to impose any kind of listing fee because I don't want to drive any business off the system - it functions best when there's a lot of volume running through it.

Not sure yet what we'll do, but we definitely won't let people just store infinite comms on the commarket forever. It's not a giant emergency though either, on the other hand, so there's no urgency to figure out the solution right this second.

Could you give a rough figure of how much volume currently runs through the market? The times I've used it it seems like the same batches are up for about the same price, so it doesn't seem as dynamic as you're suggesting.

Sarapis

Those aren't things I'm going to give figures on, but some comms have very little volume (not much demand for some), whereas others, like stone and wood, have quite a bit.

Trey

Listing all Wood commodities:

Commodity                           Price                    Quantity Available

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wood                                59gp                     1000

Wood                                60gp                     2000

Wood                                70gp                     950

Wood                                75gp                     789

Wood                                6000gp                   8000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I appear to have irritated someone with this thread. Haha

Greys

@Trey Those have been there for a while. 

Trey

Greys said:

@Trey Those have been there for a while. 

They were 600gp per last I checked.

Greys

@Trey I could be wrong but pretty sure there was another 0. Just means oneday you may kill someone and they drop tons of commodities as they stored it in the market and have no rift room.

Mishgul

The price went up because some idiot was buying them at 600 per. Maybe some idiot will buy them at 6k per too but i have to pay my rent first.