Should we delete buckawns?

Aktillum

Can we all just agree that buckawns is only minorly useful for 1v1 combat but incredibly useful for 3v1 ganks where someone is spamming web at you, or fringe situations where you're bashing DKs and someone comes in and starts web-whoring you so the DK kills you?

I sound like a broken record here but buckawn does have its usefulness. There aren't any roving gank groups of Priests or Apostates these days, 2 of them spamming web while another judges / eliminates, but judging from this thread, I could make an Apostate alt, team up with a couple griefers, and terrorize half the world with web-whoring.

Atalkez

Aktillum said:

Can we all just agree that buckawns is only minorly useful for 1v1 combat but incredibly useful for 3v1 ganks where someone is spamming web at you, or fringe situations where you're bashing DKs and someone comes in and starts web-whoring you so the DK kills you?

I sound like a broken record here but buckawn does have its usefulness. There aren't any roving gank groups of Priests or Apostates these days, 2 of them spamming web while another judges / eliminates, but judging from this thread, I could make an Apostate alt, team up with a couple griefers, and terrorize half the world with web-whoring.

I'm confused where web-whoring comes in. Unless you have two people webbing, you're always going to writhe before the person can re-web. Just walk away! If you don't notice someone webbing you the first time, and you let them do it more than once, then you might re-evaluate what you pay attention to.

Granted, if you have someone throwing Hangedman, then webbing and enmesh - that can be very hard to get away from. Realistically though, if they are ganking you 3v1 - web or not you're probably going to die if they are coordinated. If buckawns were deleted and these abilities didn't stack, I don't see how it would be that much of an issue to make that change.

Aktillum

Atalkez said:

Aktillum said:

Can we all just agree that buckawns is only minorly useful for 1v1 combat but incredibly useful for 3v1 ganks where someone is spamming web at you, or fringe situations where you're bashing DKs and someone comes in and starts web-whoring you so the DK kills you?

I sound like a broken record here but buckawn does have its usefulness. There aren't any roving gank groups of Priests or Apostates these days, 2 of them spamming web while another judges / eliminates, but judging from this thread, I could make an Apostate alt, team up with a couple griefers, and terrorize half the world with web-whoring.

I'm confused where web-whoring comes in. Unless you have two people webbing, you're always going to writhe before the person can re-web. Just walk away!

My example said 2 people webbing. Lets say Rangor, Exelethril and me jumped you. Rangor starts a behead, I web you, you writhe, Exelethril webs you, you writhe, I web you, behead goes through. You might be able to escape that with spamming, but if Exelethril and me had our webbing automated, it'd boil down to ping vs ping.

It could even be done with 2 people. Rangor and me jump you. Rangor webs you, I freeze ground, Rangor starts behead, I web you, you writhe, slip on frozen ground, I web you, behead goes through.

"If buckawns were deleted and these abilities didn't stack, I don't see how it would be that much of an issue to make that change."

Thats a huge if though. Currently, webbing + ropes does stack. I think impale stacks too, though I'm not 100% positive if web+impale is still possible.

Halos

Atalkez said:

I'm confused 

Clearly.

Granted, not all of us have evade, though.

edit: or can be auto-delivered out of it. 

Atalkez

Aktillum said:

Atalkez said:

Aktillum said:

Can we all just agree that buckawns is only minorly useful for 1v1 combat but incredibly useful for 3v1 ganks where someone is spamming web at you, or fringe situations where you're bashing DKs and someone comes in and starts web-whoring you so the DK kills you?

I sound like a broken record here but buckawn does have its usefulness. There aren't any roving gank groups of Priests or Apostates these days, 2 of them spamming web while another judges / eliminates, but judging from this thread, I could make an Apostate alt, team up with a couple griefers, and terrorize half the world with web-whoring.

I'm confused where web-whoring comes in. Unless you have two people webbing, you're always going to writhe before the person can re-web. Just walk away!

My example said 2 people webbing. Lets say Rangor, Exelethril and me jumped you. Rangor starts a behead, I web you, you writhe, Exelethril webs you, you writhe, I web you, behead goes through. You might be able to escape that with spamming, but if Exelethril and me had our webbing automated, it'd boil down to ping vs ping.

That's not automatically a kill sequence. You could tumble out of that scenario, and unless they react properly, you'll at least live longer.

It could even be done with 2 people. Rangor and me jump you. Rangor webs you, I freeze ground, Rangor starts behead, I web you, you writhe, slip on frozen ground, I web you, behead goes through.

You can spam through ice ground, not necessarily a 100% kill sequence either. Even hitting Rangor with paralysis once during that window of opportunity you're guaranteed will let you live at least a bit longer.

"If buckawns were deleted and these abilities didn't stack, I don't see how it would be that much of an issue to make that change."

Thats a huge if though. Currently, webbing + ropes does stack. I think impale stacks too, though I'm not 100% positive if web+impale is still possible.

Sure, but if this change goes through we can all agree something would have to be done about the stacking.

Halos said:

Atalkez said:

I'm confused 

Clearly.

Granted, not all of us have evade, though.

edit: or can be auto-delivered out of it. 

Bolded responses. Not everyone has Evade or can be auto-delivered out of these situations, but to assume just because you get webbed you're dead is false. You're not using your skills, or you're just watching while CURING ON does its' thing. There is always an option to get away, it just may be small. Also, we don't have to be rude

Aktillum

Atalkez said:

Aktillum said:

Atalkez said:

Aktillum said:

Can we all just agree that buckawns is only minorly useful for 1v1 combat but incredibly useful for 3v1 ganks where someone is spamming web at you, or fringe situations where you're bashing DKs and someone comes in and starts web-whoring you so the DK kills you?

I sound like a broken record here but buckawn does have its usefulness. There aren't any roving gank groups of Priests or Apostates these days, 2 of them spamming web while another judges / eliminates, but judging from this thread, I could make an Apostate alt, team up with a couple griefers, and terrorize half the world with web-whoring.

I'm confused where web-whoring comes in. Unless you have two people webbing, you're always going to writhe before the person can re-web. Just walk away!

My example said 2 people webbing. Lets say Rangor, Exelethril and me jumped you. Rangor starts a behead, I web you, you writhe, Exelethril webs you, you writhe, I web you, behead goes through. You might be able to escape that with spamming, but if Exelethril and me had our webbing automated, it'd boil down to ping vs ping.

That's not automatically a kill sequence. You could tumble out of that scenario, and unless they react properly, you'll at least live longer.

Problem is that if you tumble out of that scenario, you drop cloak, and Exelethril or myself will have brazier on standby, and there's like a 80% chance you'll still get beheaded since instakills like behead/judgement aren't instantly stopped by people leaving the room.

Trust me man, Qashar used to do this shit to people. Ovid/Daje/someone else would beckon into piety, start a judgement, Daje webs you, you start to tumble out, someone braziers you back to them, and judgement still goes through.

And just for a bit of anecdote, a couple months ago Jarrod and 2 others chased me all over Nish. I escaped on like <500 health because I was spamming dirs, Jarrod tried to web me, and buckawns saved the day.

Atalkez

Aktillum said:

Atalkez said:

Aktillum said:

Atalkez said:

Aktillum said:

Can we all just agree that buckawns is only minorly useful for 1v1 combat but incredibly useful for 3v1 ganks where someone is spamming web at you, or fringe situations where you're bashing DKs and someone comes in and starts web-whoring you so the DK kills you?

I sound like a broken record here but buckawn does have its usefulness. There aren't any roving gank groups of Priests or Apostates these days, 2 of them spamming web while another judges / eliminates, but judging from this thread, I could make an Apostate alt, team up with a couple griefers, and terrorize half the world with web-whoring.

I'm confused where web-whoring comes in. Unless you have two people webbing, you're always going to writhe before the person can re-web. Just walk away!

My example said 2 people webbing. Lets say Rangor, Exelethril and me jumped you. Rangor starts a behead, I web you, you writhe, Exelethril webs you, you writhe, I web you, behead goes through. You might be able to escape that with spamming, but if Exelethril and me had our webbing automated, it'd boil down to ping vs ping.

That's not automatically a kill sequence. You could tumble out of that scenario, and unless they react properly, you'll at least live longer.

Problem is that if you tumble out of that scenario, you drop cloak, and Exelethril or myself will have brazier on standby, and there's like a 80% chance you'll still get beheaded since instakills like behead/judgement aren't instantly stopped by people leaving the room.

Trust me man, Qashar used to do this shit to people. Ovid/Daje/someone else would beckon into piety, start a judgement, Daje webs you, you start to tumble out, someone braziers you back to them, and judgement still goes through.

Sure, I get all that. What I'm saying though is that web doesn't automatically mean you're going to die. Sure it can be used in a very effective manner and you can die to that. That's true of a lot of kill methods. Forcing them to do more than TOUCH WEB and CLEAVE AKTILLUM, increases your window of survival. The options might not be great, and they might not always work, but you do have them.

Aktillum

Atalkez said:

Forcing them to do more than TOUCH WEB and CLEAVE AKTILLUM, increases your window of survival. The options might not be great, and they might not always work, but you do have them.

But...you also have the option of buying buckawns

Seriously though, if the argument here is that buckawns should be deleted, and then web+hangedman+enmesh+impale are made not to stack, sure why not, although I would predict atavian wing sales soaring through the roof since duanathar would become alot more reliable.

Klendathu

Aktillum said:

Atalkez said:

Forcing them to do more than TOUCH WEB and CLEAVE AKTILLUM, increases your window of survival. The options might not be great, and they might not always work, but you do have them.

But...you also have the option of buying buckawns

Seriously though, if the argument here is that buckawns should be deleted, and then web+hangedman+enmesh+impale are made not to stack, sure why not, although I would predict atavian wing sales soaring through the roof since duanathar would become alot more reliable.

Then after buckawns, delete wings, DELETE ALL THE THINGS!

Santar

Just put this into practice.

I instructed Atalkez to do nothing but web me. Without changing my offense or strategy really at all, I killed him in 40 seconds. The only thing I did differently was I used a longer hypno string because I knew what kind of defense he was going to employ, and hypno gives extra momentum.

I also highly suspect that Serpent is the worst class at dealing with constant web. All other classes seem like they would have a fairly easy time killing someone that was constantly webbing.

I don't think the "it imbalances 1v1" is a credible argument. Web is valuable in 1v1, but so are all artefacts. Like I said in my first post. Web is pretty good if used optimally, but it's not something that is required, or breaks 1v1 by any means. Other smart defensive tactics are usually more effective than webbing.

Buckawn's is bought for people who don't want to get webbed in group fights/ganks, pure and simple.


I'd be interested in any other top tier fighters going into the arena and posting results about how long it takes to kill someone that web spams them. Probably not very long. 

Aktillum

Santar said:

Just put this into practice.

I instructed Atalkez to do nothing but web me. Without changing my offense or strategy really at all, I killed him in 40 seconds. The only thing I did differently was I used a longer hypno string because I knew what kind of defense he was going to employ, and hypno gives extra momentum.


Buckawn's is bought for people who don't want to get webbed in group fights/ganks, pure and simple.

Completely agree, its what I've been saying.

I'd be interested in seeing if lethal ink trait (faster web balance) changed anything though.

Santar

Yeah, it'd make them die faster due to having longer CD on tree tattoo.

Web being faster won't help you as far as web/web/webbing goes.  Still have to wait for them to writhe, etc. 


The offense for every class now is just so strong, that standing in their room and expecting web to save you from their momentum just isn't going to happen.  You're gonna get overloaded fast by most everyone, web or not.

Aktillum

Santar said:

Yeah, it'd make them die faster due to having longer CD on tree tattoo.

Web being faster won't help you as far as web/web/webbing goes.  Still have to wait for them to writhe, etc. 


The offense for every class now is just so strong, that standing in their room and expecting web to save you from their momentum just isn't going to happen.  You're gonna get overloaded fast by most everyone, web or not.

I've never used lethal ink because of the longer CD on tree, but I always thought that it made your web balance nearly sync up with the time it took them to writhe. Currently, hammer is a little faster than shield, and writhe is a little faster than web (for good reason) but I thought lethal ink brought web a little more in-line with writhe balance, so they could potentially automate webbing you (trigger: Santar writhes out send: touch web)

Probably not the case though, but how much closer does lethal ink bring you to their writhe balance?

Alrena

Aktillum said:

Santar said:

Yeah, it'd make them die faster due to having longer CD on tree tattoo.

Web being faster won't help you as far as web/web/webbing goes.  Still have to wait for them to writhe, etc. 


The offense for every class now is just so strong, that standing in their room and expecting web to save you from their momentum just isn't going to happen.  You're gonna get overloaded fast by most everyone, web or not.

I've never used lethal ink because of the longer CD on tree, but I always thought that it made your web balance nearly sync up with the time it took them to writhe. Currently, hammer is a little faster than shield, and writhe is a little faster than web (for good reason) but I thought lethal ink brought web a little more in-line with writhe balance, so they could potentially automate webbing you (trigger: Santar writhes out send: touch web)

Probably not the case though, but how much closer does lethal ink bring you to their writhe balance?

@Aegoth used to web me and 50% of the time could use that to bypass my parry. Mind you, I do have less than optimal ping, but there you have it.

I don't think web is that bad in 1v1, but being ganked with hangedman/web means you'll never ever writhe completely free. Unless you are Bard and have Dwinnu. 

Talysin

I think I agree with Daeir's perspective. This is an incredibly expensive artifact to avoid such a stupidly cheap ability that everyone has access to.

Aktillum

@Talysin
I could agree and say it should be lowered to 500cr, though Alrena's post about lethal ink+web being a legit way to bypass parry bumps up its usefulness beyond just anti-gank. 500cr would be pretty good though, since so many classes have entanglement abilities these days that web isn't as commonly used in ganks as it used to be.

Iocun

I don't see a point in making it cheaper.

First, many people are buying it despite its price, so apparently it is worth the current price to them.

Second, making it more easily available only means that more people will have it, making web attacks less and less useful, which means that people will stop using web and the relative worth of buckawn's declines even further.

I can see no benefit in making buckawn's more widely spread while still keeping it an artefact. Either we accept the status quo, or do away with the web/buckawn mechanic altogether.

Aktillum

Yeah I agree, couldn't edit my post in time but deleting buckawns+web altogether wouldn't be a bad route, since many classes have hindering abilities these days anyway.

Tael

Iocun said:

or do away with the web/buckawn mechanic altogether.

I like this one and I wish this thread were more about that.

Santar's point seems sound - that it isn't really an issue for 1v1.

Which means the only thing standing in the way of getting rid of the artefact right now is how useful it is for group combat. And, for group combat, it's a pretty wonky artefact that feels pretty out of place amidst most others for the reasons many people have discussed. I think it really does feel like something that should probably go the way of the torc and, while it's probably a moneymaker for IRE, it seems so out of place in modern Achaea that maybe there's some hope of seeing the situation ameliorated.

If you wanted to keep it identical for 1v1 and eliminate the group combat problem it mitigates, why not just put a cooldown on being webbed/hangedmanned/etc that's a bit shorter than the balance cost of any of the abilities, but longer than writhe?

So in 1v1, there would be no difference at all. And in group combat, web would still be plenty useful (arguably more useful since it would affect everyone rather than the subpopulation without buckawns - bearing in mind that the most valuable targets are most likely to have buckawns), but you'd always have an opportunity to do something between webs, even if two people are webbing you.

Jules

I have finally figured out why such smart people keep getting sidetracked in discussions like this (in pretty much exactly this way), and I finally realized it's because it's a way to humblebrag... You're lucky Iocun is here.  Try to focus on the unfun (and expensive!) mechanic instead of how awesome you all are (and yes, you are all awesome).   

Jinsun

It's really just part of the process. While each artifacts is an extra product but the game itself is an overall product. If you want a better product, it makes sense to hash it
out with or in the presence of the provider so that you get the product or change that you desire.

Vakvyr

Iocun said:

I haven't yet heard a convincing argument for why web needs to exist.

If its only purpose is to generate revenue through the sale of buckawn's, that's a rather dubious justification to me.

Something for newbs to do in large scale engagements.

Jules

No, bad Vakvyr, bad.  Bad *sprays water bottle*. 

Iocun

Vakvyr said:

Iocun said:

I haven't yet heard a convincing argument for why web needs to exist.

If its only purpose is to generate revenue through the sale of buckawn's, that's a rather dubious justification to me.

Something for newbs to do in large scale engagements.

I often did nothing but web in melee group fights. Stop calling me a noob!

Aedin

Generally I got mixed feelings on this I wouldn't mind seeing it gone web and buckawns but same time for the price paid to null out a single tattoo with no effect else where I wouldn't mind having it effect in some small way on the writhe times on other forms of entanglement.. But if it did get removed I wouldn't miss it truthfully

Xith

Oddly I think delete web makes the most sense. Since there is an artifact that effectively deletes web tattoo for only that person's experience.

My biggest debate before buying a buckawn's amulet was "Gee, do I want to be a cunt to every person who's too poor to afford a buckawn's amulet?"
After years of deliberation, the answer was yes. But I still don't think it's fair. 

Vakvyr

Iocun said:

Vakvyr said:

Iocun said:

I haven't yet heard a convincing argument for why web needs to exist.

If its only purpose is to generate revenue through the sale of buckawn's, that's a rather dubious justification to me.

Something for newbs to do in large scale engagements.

I often did nothing but web in melee group fights. Stop calling me a noob!

If you're more than 25% of my might and you only web in group fights, you're just a team player/good guy greg.

Unless you're not on my team. Then you're an ass and you're priority number one next time we fight. Also a noob.

Aktillum

Delete web tattoo but keep buckawns wouldn't be a bad option either, since if you get rid of buckawns every LoS engagement would have a jester throwing web bombs like they were having a liquidation sale.

Aedin

Aktillum said:

Delete web tattoo but keep buckawns wouldn't be a bad option either, since if you get rid of buckawns every LoS engagement would have a jester throwing web bombs like they were having a liquidation sale.

Cause web tattoos are a wacky nu nu . Jester-Direct!

Borran

Aktillum said:

Dunno why people are saying its not a high-priority artefact, though I guess for most people it isn't. If you're mark, infamous, or bash in UW/Annwyn alot, avoiding a gank group thats spamming touch web is always nice.

For 1v1 its not a huge deal, seems every class has some sort of transfix/entangle/curare loop attack these days anyways, so webbing people 1v1 isn't a huge thing anymore.

A lot of attacks that used to work on webbed people have been nerfed over the years to work on proned only  (web/bite, web/axk, web/bbt, web/impale(?)). So IRE sort of made web tattoo even more useless and in turn, made buckawns feel more useless.

Anyway I did some googling to find Achaea moments where web or buckawns has been useful:

Santar gets 5v1 web-whored and daegger eliminated (2008 log):

Buckawns wouldn't actually have helped him too much in that log because of totem, but you can see how people will web the crap out of you in a gank, and halfway down the thread Santar says "I should buy buckawns".

I miss everyone in the hyperlinked topic- and I barely knew most of them.