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Should we delete buckawns?

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  • AedinAedin Member Posts: 306 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aktillum said:
    Delete web tattoo but keep buckawns wouldn't be a bad option either, since if you get rid of buckawns every LoS engagement would have a jester throwing web bombs like they were having a liquidation sale.
    Cause web tattoos are a wacky nu nu . Jester-Direct!
  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 2015
    Aktillum said:
    Dunno why people are saying its not a high-priority artefact, though I guess for most people it isn't. If you're mark, infamous, or bash in UW/Annwyn alot, avoiding a gank group thats spamming touch web is always nice.

    For 1v1 its not a huge deal, seems every class has some sort of transfix/entangle/curare loop attack these days anyways, so webbing people 1v1 isn't a huge thing anymore.

    A lot of attacks that used to work on webbed people have been nerfed over the years to work on proned only  (web/bite, web/axk, web/bbt, web/impale(?)). So IRE sort of made web tattoo even more useless and in turn, made buckawns feel more useless.

    Anyway I did some googling to find Achaea moments where web or buckawns has been useful:

    Santar gets 5v1 web-whored and daegger eliminated (2008 log):

    Buckawns wouldn't actually have helped him too much in that log because of totem, but you can see how people will web the crap out of you in a gank, and halfway down the thread Santar says "I should buy buckawns".


    I miss everyone in the hyperlinked topic- and I barely knew most of them.

  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Are all these "DELETE ARTIFACTS" threads coming to light because people want credit refunds to fund their upcoming multi-classing?

    KlendathuAktillum
  • TitonusTitonus Youngstown, OhioMember Posts: 238 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    It should only cost around 870 credits to tri-trans the second class...with iron elite lessons and free* credits, that's not really a "refund my artefacts!"  type of situation.

    * Free = $24.99 per month

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    You're on to us!  In all seriousness, though, veils and earrings (no one bring up earrings, we can't handle three of these at the same time) have always been on the short list of things a lot of people see as something that shouldn't exist.  Buckawns really do feel like they're cut from the same cloth, and Talysin highlighted it, that's all.  

    I've just refused to ever buy the stupid veil (and all of the posts saying "just ask some poor schmuck that spent 2K credits on one" really are true so why bother), but I do have the buckawns.  If I got refunded, it would be bound credits, of course, and Jules has like... a LOT of toys.  She also has a lot of lessons.  She also already has a lot of credits.  So, I just might finally get some flower pots.  Or in truth, all of my unbound credits are stockpiled for ship maintenance in case I ever play Achaea with any seriousness again.  

    But yeah, sure, these kinds of refunds might help people pick up 3rd, 4th, even 5th?  classes?  Mostly, for the kinds of people that would get these refunds, it really will just be mad money.  But, multi-class is a great example of how there is now so much more stuff to buy period, and stuff worth buying.  That's a good thing, because it really does mean that long term, there won't be some gaping financial hole left by a lack of new buckawn purchases, for example, because that would really be the concern.  
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I see a lot of posts offering anecdotes about the 5% of the population that actually has a use for Buckawns, and acting as though those outliers apply equally to everyone else. Buckawns are only remotely "necessary" if you are someone that gets ganked conistently, (emphasis on consistently) or a raider/raid leader that gets prioritized. (emphasis on prioritized) If you are not one of these people, then you really don't have a need for Buckawns, you're just buying it because being webbed is a mild inconvenience that you can pay to make disappear, which is essentially what artefacts are for. I die a lot more to straight-up damage in groups than I die to web, but I wouldn't say that Girdles of Aegis and Logosian Rings are "necessary" for group combat.

    In 1v1, web is only powerful if you time it well, if it's stacked with other entanglement, or if someone is just looping it. If it's being timed well, that means the player using it knows how to make the most of it, and the response to that should not be "delete it". When it stacks with other entanglement, that can be abuseable, but that's something to be addressed specifically; that could be a problem that needs fixing, or it could be an intentional quality of that class/tactic. If someone is just looping web against you, yeah that's annoying, but it also brings their own offense to a stand-still. At that point, you're not really fighting, and they could just run or fly constantly for the same effect. None of these situations make Buckawns a must-have for solo combat.

    Buckawns boots/amulets are an expensive convenience that is not necessary for most, but desirable by many. That is the definition of a good artefact. (Veils, too, though I agree some means to locate raiders in your own city would be a good idea. Raids are rough when you don't know where the attackers are.)

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    MelodieDrodak
  • KenwayKenway San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,130 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Aerek you get more/better use out of that damn web tattoo than anyone else I know. 

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
    Aerek
  • SilvarienSilvarien Member Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 2015
    @Jules : Earrings are not what they're cracked up to be. I have 16 earrings, I can basically tell you it's the credit expenditure I regret the most, in its totality. Nobody uses the damn things, I got 16 earrings, nobody uses them, I reminded people, they still aren't using them, though I am basically in safety as a non-comm and I didn't even make the earring partners pay anything. Either people go dormant, or for whatever reason they forget you have an earring with them, and with some of them I just don't have an explanation because they ARE logging in, they ARE in combat, but they still don't use the earring. Not a lesson I would have liked to pay 12,800 credits for. I wish I could get a full refund, or at least to get people using the earrings, but it's not happening. I don't know why, given how good earrings are. Mystery, I guess.

    Buckawns, and veils, and all the other artefacts provide combatants with an EDGE over similarly-situated competition. They also have a tendency to make heavily-artied combatants dependent on them, and resultantly complacent. There are top-tier fighters like Tynil who don't have that many arties, but they still do really well. All people that know combat have told me you can't buy your way into combat success in this game. I think they are right.

    Before being on Achaea I was on Maple Story, which WAS pay-to-win. You could simply buy expensive junk, push three buttons, and be a "pro," provided you also hunted like Penwize. I took 1.5 years of roughly 12 hours a day grinding per day to reach the maximum level. But that's patience, not skill.

    I like Achaea more than other games I've checked out because despite expensive items you can buy, you can't heavily achieve just because of them. I am heavily artied and a terrible combatant and I don't really pretend otherwise. This is the only game I've seen that sells items while still allowing people that don't buy them to do well.

    Maybe you guys don't believe me, but this is what I've heard time and again since 2009, and being heavily artied and virtually inept at combat I am not exactly one to talk about counterexamples.

    Achaea is a good game. Even with veils, even with buckawns. Just my two cents.
    DespranBorranPraxides
  • VakvyrVakvyr Member Posts: 105 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2015
    Earrings are for combatants, ironically.

    Also, 16!? What the hell man. Your character clearly does not understand the concept of true love.
    Praxides
  • SilvarienSilvarien Member Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 2015
    Vakvyr said:
    Earrings are for combatants, ironically.

    Also, 16!? What the hell man. Your character clearly does not understand the concept of true love.
    @Vakvyr : They capped at 22 after Tanris. There used to be no limit. Imagine a well-oiled war machine originating in Ashtan, and everybody that matters has an earring to each other. Earrings were slightly nerfed, too, there's now a 2 second wind-up.

    Love can be platonic love for one's country, fellow man, etc. My mentor very strongly believed that Earrings of Sinope should only be used in an "appropriate" relationship, but if that was ever so, it's no longer so now. My mentor still insisted, so I asked Silvy's god Phaestus, and was told anybody should feel comfortable getting earrings for utility.
  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I feel that we should go for an even more literal historical requirement for the earings of Sinope - they shall only work for married siblings.


                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Moist.
  • ChiamChiam Member Posts: 144 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    thanks to this thread, everyone that hasnt been webbing me before in groups now rememebers. 

    hi @Achilles ;
    HalosAchillesJules
  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Chiam said:
    thanks to this thread, everyone that hasnt been webbing me before in groups now rememebers. 

    hi @Achilles ;
    I knew this would happen!!

  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Screw Artifact refunds. I want lesson-refunds for all the times I've changed class before multi-classing. *harumph!*

    TherisPraxides
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,272 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Borran said:
    Screw Artifact refunds. I want lesson-refunds for all the times I've changed class before multi-classing. *harumph!*
    If we received discounts for buying the same artie multiple times (crit pendant, anyone? ), I would agree. 
    Praxides
  • EphramEphram Member Posts: 122 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I remember being a true newb in Cyrene, and every novice getting a web tattoo for raid defence/CTFs. I also remember that I didn't know how to make a targeting alias, or any sort of alias, so my attempts to web people were generally thwarted by my inability to type fast enough.
    MelodieVakvyr
  • VakvyrVakvyr Member Posts: 105 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Ephram said:
    I remember being a true newb in Cyrene, and every novice getting a web tattoo for raid defence/CTFs. I also remember that I didn't know how to make a targeting alias, or any sort of alias, so my attempts to web people were generally thwarted by my inability to type fast enough.
    Careful there. I got the water bottle for mentioning something similar.
  • AchillesAchilles Los AngelesMember Posts: 2,538 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2015
    Chiam said:
    thanks to this thread, everyone that hasnt been webbing me before in groups now rememebers. 

    hi @Achilles ;
    LOL



    image
    ChiamPraxidesXith
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Chiam said:
    thanks to this thread, everyone that hasnt been webbing me before in groups now rememebers. 

    hi @Achilles ;
    Well, even if nothing else comes of this particular thread, this really makes me laugh again every time I look at it.
  • HalosHalos San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,469 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sticky strands of webbing spray out from Finwe to cover Sarapis.
    well

    ChiamPraxides
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Since I've been effectively dormant for... quite a while, I'm in the weird position of deciding if I'm going to play this game. In a weird way it's like being a novice all over again.

    Now I won't lie, when I was 19, the Sirens got me to stay.

    But I recall my first experiences with buckawns, as a novice Magi (on Nexus) who would win Hashan's Rampages by locking myself in the chapel, closing the door and embedding retardation in full vibes, web, transfix, transfix, pestilence, hourglass, eventually watch them die to voyria or something.

    One time, someone dodged my webs! I was like "how'd you do that?" and they explained that they bought something that does it automatically every time. I had a weird moment of confusion in learning that people could buy their way out of certain combat strategies (granted, I was being a cheap shit magi).

    So the magi issue has been fixed. There may still be classes that can abuse the web tattoo, but the questions in deletion of either would be:
    - if 'web' is deleted, do we expect novices of all classes to have another means of repetitive hindering in group combat?
    - if only 'buckawns' is deleted, high-tier combatants would notice the most when being web-whored in group combat.

    In the interest of both novices and top combatants, the best solution is probably to delete buckawns and give 'web' tattoo an aura and/or cooldown between uses. So the more people who use buckawn's on someone in quick succession, the faster the target can writhe on each successive use. It would be similar to the curseward change that stacks EQ the more it's enacted.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
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