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Amnesia Pets

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  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2015
    Antonius said:
    Amnesia isn't the only benefit of an artefact pet, so I don't think it's really fair to balance the full cost against the effectiveness of amnesia.

    I'm still not sure if it's worth 400 credits, but at that price you should at least expect it to be a lot less useful than if you think it costs 1200 credits.
    Yes, thats true. I meant 1200cr from the perspective of purchasing a pet solely for the amnesia add-on. You can certainly upgrade it with flying, mountable, etc to increase an artie pets utility. If we're not balancing the total pet cost against amnesia, 400cr isn't that steep, compared the other similarly priced arties with similar fringe utility, though I can't think of any others that are quite as limited in usefulness, except maybe scorpion's tail.

  • SantarSantar Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,403 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aktillum said:
    Well now I'm just more confused. Some are saying they're useful, others saying they're useful in like 1 or 2 rare fringe situations.

    I can agree with @Santar that if you had multiple pets doing worthwhile effect on a constant basis, it'd be OP.

    On the other hand, are they worth the 1200cr? (750 pet + 400 amnesia upgrade). For that steep of a price, I feel they should be worth more than 1 or 2 extreme fringe situations. Especially since they're non-refundable (can't trade pets / pet upgrades in for bound cr).


    Amnesia is good against two things:

    1. People who are in aeon/slow/retardation and have sub-optimal ping(50-100 or higher)
    2. People who have have their alias/macros/triggers configured improperly so that amnesia can affect them.

    image

  • KakotasKakotas Member Posts: 269 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Honestly Amnesia pets are useful. Maybe not in top tier duel situations but I've dueled enough people through the years to learn their value. I would say it depends on different classes as to usefulness and it depends on which system your playing against but there are a whole lot of other uses for those pets. (Now what would make sense is if pets became a little more useful utility skill wise perhaps were able to hold stuff like a bank or something like that it would be a minor upgrade to offset the 750 credits-admittedly I don't own a pet so I'm not sure if this is possible currently or possible to create it). A triple amnesia stack in against some situations is something I never want to run into.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
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  • DraekarDraekar Member Posts: 290 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I think it is relative to the person and combat scenarios as to whether or not 400 credits is a worthwhile investment for the particular pet upgrade skill of amnesia..

    As far as credit investments go it seems a fair price and people just need to realise that this upgrade, like most upgrades and artefact purchases are not going to be useful for everyone in every situation.

    One thing I do think is that it should absolutely not be upgraded. For the classes and situations where it is useful it can be dangerously so. Magi with amnesia pets in full vibes and retard are annoying as hell, as can be occies who get good momentum with hinder/aeon/afflict and use amnesia pets to assist with this. 

    The fact that these pets are (probably) the most useful to these two classes and less so to a lot of other classes doesn't mean it is "useless" at all it is just not worth it for everyone which I think is a basis we are fine with judging most artefacts and upgrades on.
    Kakotas
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think there's too much misinformation here about amnesia pets and we need to figure out exactly what the hell they're good for (besides just generically spouting out "they're great for aeon/retard" because multiple people are saying they're not).

    Jhui says they're great in retard for stopping people's commands after they've already sent them.
    Penwize says no, it doesn't work that way, amnesia gets instantly burned up as soon as they send a command and their original command still goes through.
    Santar says they're useful in extreme fringe situations (such as fighting someone with a SE Asia ping, such as myself)

    and then IG conversations like this:
    Penwize says, "They're shit."
    Penwize says, "I even explained WHY they're shit."

    So from the looks of it, they may be useful, if you have 3 amnesia pets and are fighting someone from SE Asia in retardation vibe, and their system sucks at handling amnesia (which is like nobody in 2015).

    Again, for an artie with no trade-in value (pets cannot be traded in), that seems like such a small area of usefulness, that nearly any other artie would be investigated and tweaked, but people would rather keep them useless for 98% of situations because any tweaks would make them potentially OP.

  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2015
    Antidas says, "It'll help with noobs/midtiers."

    Penwize says, "It so doesn't."

    Antidas says, "Upper tier will know to just double send."

    Antidas says, "You don't think so?"

    Penwize says, "The only case where send("touch amnesia") doesn't work is where you have the ping of a Siberian on satellite internet."

    You say, "Yeah and everyone uses SVO or client-side curing."

    Antidas says, "Oh, is it built into SVO/serverside?"

    Antidas says, "Then nvm."

    Antidas says, "Its useless."

    Penwize says, "Shit, you can just add it to gmcp's gaining amnesia."

    Antidas says, "Admins should really drop the price of that."

    Antidas says, "Or better yet."

    Antidas says, "Rework amnesia."

    Antidas says, "Might be a bit OP to make it consumed when the "touch" emote goes through."

    Penwize says, "Yeah that's the problem with it. There's no real way to balance it."

  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We are all saying the same thing. However if penwize doesn't think double amnesia pets in retard won't eventually take quite a few of his commands even with solid ping i dunno what I need to say to convince him. Sure it's not a guarantee but it's pretty obviously going to work every now and then
    image
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amnesia also good anti theft. ORder pet kill me. go afk. Also good against people who use force commands to stop tumble/behead/channeled things if you really want to ride your luck.

    Overall, it is not worth 400 cr, and the damage from the pet is definitely more helpful to me (as a way to prevent sleep locks without wasting my wp on metawake, and as a way for checking recklessness). 

    I kind of forget it exists 99% of the time though. 1 in a million fights i'll get wrecked in aeon or retardation because of the 1 second delay hitting at a really unopportune time, but my system will get me out of it 99/100 since its far too infrequent and usually hits me at ineffective times, and the last time I was in retard against someone with two amnesia pets, I barely noticed them.

    But apostate is a ridiculously strong class so i may not be a good measure of such things.

    -

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  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,956 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It was always useful when @Jhui wanted to deliverance and block force remove armour.  RIP force remove armour. :(

     i'm a rebel

    Jhui
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    To hell with your amnesia pets @Aktillum, just summon Fiendy and have a pet that afflicts Dementia instead.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Ahmet Yes, I need to bug Vastar for CIJ Apostates.

  • MorthifMorthif Member Posts: 1,725 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aktillum said:
    @Ahmet Yes, I need to bug Vastar for CIJ Apostates.
    Eww would Mhaldor allow that?
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Morthif said:
    Aktillum said:
    @Ahmet Yes, I need to bug Vastar for CIJ Apostates.
    Eww would Mhaldor allow that?
    Clearly I wasn't serious  :p we're not allowed to have factional classes

  • MorthifMorthif Member Posts: 1,725 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aktillum said:
    Morthif said:
    Aktillum said:
    @Ahmet Yes, I need to bug Vastar for CIJ Apostates.
    Eww would Mhaldor allow that?
    Clearly I wasn't serious  :p we're not allowed to have factional classes
    Oh phew. I don't know all the rules you crazy rogue houses have.
  • SantarSantar Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,403 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Apostates are pretty funny.

    image

  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2015
    Okay, so I went mage to test retardation + (one) amnesia pet for myself.

    It does appear to have some usefulness, if the amnesia proc can beat their ping. Apparently, amnesia will cancel a command sent in retardation, if you don't cancel the amnesia first (which is very easily done with TOUCH AMNESIA or whatever). This is very easily beaten by ping, obviously.

    2 amnesia pets would be better, though not by much. Its definitely not going to work on top-tiers like Jhui, Penwize, Rangor, Santar etc but it will likely screw up some midbies who are either unaware, have a slower ping, or have an improperly configured system.

    So I take back what I said about it being entirely useless. It is an outdated mechanic that will only become more outdated as people update their systems to GMCP, but any tweaks would possibly send it into overpowered mode, so it currently appears to be balancing on a very thin line of "this kind of sucks" versus "this is potentially OP as hell".

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    May be rehashing some of these points as I skimmed over the last page.

    The only uses I see with it are ordering it to attack yourself during channelled abilities where you don't want to be interrupted, and against people using their own systems that don't know enough about amnesia to not be affected by it. It has some potential luck value in retardation and aeon, as mentioned, where it could block a sent command if the amnesia-afflicted person doesn't manage to enter a command before their original command gets eaten by amnesia. This could be due to excellent (lucky) timing on the amnesia pet just before the command goes through, or due to (unlucky) high ping on the afflicted's part. 

    1200cr mounts' most important benefit is that they can't be killed, though. The amnesia affliction it gives is just a somewhat beneficial side effect, not the main selling point. That's why I feel like it should be left alone, just because it isn't worth the hassle of re-purposing. 
    Aktillum
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2015
    Jovolo said:

    1200cr mounts' most important benefit is that they can't be killed, though. The amnesia affliction it gives is just a somewhat beneficial side effect, not the main selling point. That's why I feel like it should be left alone, just because it isn't worth the hassle of re-purposing. 
    Yeah, I can agree with this. I stupidly bought my pet solely for amnesia and didn't upgrade it with mounting or anything, so amnesia was the main selling point for me. But obviously I'm not the brightest person alive.

    I'll re-iterate that it may need looking at once everyone is using GMCP and all that, but thats tomorrow and not today.

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think as long as hidden amnesia isn't passed through as a GMCP event (like all of hidden afflictions) then it should still be fine, because essentially nothing will have changed. It'll just be that people trigger their amnesia curing/check from a GMCP event as opposed to a trigger line. 
    Tharvis
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    that's the question though, is the amnesia from amnesia pets a hidden affliction, or is it immediately known through gmcp?
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,991 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amnesia from pets isn't hidden. There's a specific line that you receive when they afflict you with it. There's no reason to think it shouldn't be visible through GMCP.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I had something important to say, but I've forgotten...  >:)

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    MorthifKasya
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2015
    I think Tharvis was asking if GMCP amnesia is hidden in blackout, which it should be. Amnesia line is hidden in blackout iirc. Will test shortly. Its a valid question since some affs "hidden" by blackout were being cured automatically by server-side until they fixed it, but likely not the case here.

    Update: its hidden properly

    Tharvis
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2015
    Jovolo said:
    I think as long as hidden amnesia isn't passed through as a GMCP event (like all of hidden afflictions) then it should still be fine, because essentially nothing will have changed. It'll just be that people trigger their amnesia curing/check from a GMCP event as opposed to a trigger line. 
    I was referring to more specific situations like illusioning amnesia (one of the last few illusions that actually work on systems that coexist with server-side curing, since server-side curing doesn't handle for amnesia for you, and you need to manually make a trigger for it) but GMCP nullifies that by being virtually illusion-proof.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    As a non-fighter, my question in threads like this is usually "I wonder if anyone is buying that feature/artie, and, further, is anyone who knows what they're doing buying it - even if it's not a short list must buy it now item"?  My question right after that is "are people like Jhui using it on any kind of regular basis"?
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2015
    Jules said:
    As a non-fighter, my question in threads like this is usually "I wonder if anyone is buying that feature/artie, and, further, is anyone who knows what they're doing buying it - even if it's not a short list must buy it now item"?  My question right after that is "are people like Jhui using it on any kind of regular basis"?
    I think few top-tier fighters own amnesia pets these days, and the ones who do have widely varying opinions on them (ex; Jhui saying they're useful, Pewize saying they're shit). They've always been mainly an Occie/Mage pet, though before there was a limit, someone had way too many (Bleak I think) and got the amount you could own nerfed, as a monk. I recall them being a bit more popular years ago, and more top-tier fighters owning them, but that was when we were all on Zmud and they had a bit better utility.

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Has anyone said they're bad, or just that amnesia is bad? I could possibly agree with the latter in regards to the price tag, but generally speaking artie mounts are amazing. When you consider they're cheaper than a single level 3 artefact
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    I understand the question as being focused on the utility of amnesia on a pet, rather than the utility of pets (and particularly unkillable mounts, which people seem to love) in general, and in OP's case, he didn't buy a mount.  That said, can existing pets be upgraded like other artifacts or are you stuck with the features you selected when you bought it?  I know that descriptions can't change, but unsure if you can "upgrade" a pet like you can other artifacts. 
  • PenwizePenwize Member Posts: 1,558 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    In my experience, you can upgrade everything about a pet, including changing its description, if you e-mail [email protected]
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Oh nice, I was thinking you couldn't change description because I know I've seen people somewhat lamenting that they had got pets with descriptions/reactions that didn't really fit with their character now. 
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