Amnesia Pets

Aktillum

Lets have a discussion on amnesia pets. They've been considered "useless" for a long time, given the ease modern systems handle amnesia. To my knowledge, you can have a maximum of 3 amnesia pets (or two?) but even then, its still not a relevant affliction in today's combat world. The amnesia upgrade for pets currently costs 400cr, which is "cheap", but their utility makes them of very little value.

Personally, I've used my amnesia pet when I was Jester, and people were able to escape soft slowlocks (aeon+concussion+kalmia) with the amnesia pet afflicting them as if it weren't even there. It added nothing to the difficulty of escaping locks.

If I'm wrong, and someone out there with amnesia pets has found them to be even marginally useful in PvP, please post some evidence.

If I'm right, lets have a discussion on what needs to be done with amnesia pets.

Jhui

They're useful 

Aktillum

@Jhui Can you post examples? Not disagreeing, you're obviously the top combatant in Achaea, but in what situations have you found them useful? Have you found one to be useful, or only useful when you have the maximum number of amnesia pets?

Jhui

The timing on them is predictable offensively so they help a lot in aeon and retardation. Outside of that batch commands own it so they aren't useful if you prefix everything you do with a useless command

Jhui

Now that gmcp affs include amnesia u can't illusion amnesia pet in aeon to make them never cure but that used to be useful too

Aktillum

Jhui said:

The timing on them is predictable offensively so they help a lot in aeon and retardation. Outside of that batch commands own it so they aren't useful if you prefix everything you do with a useless command

Thats my point, systems just send a useless command on the amnesia line. Or double-sends a command (I think SVO does this). I understand timing their amnesia attack may help alleviate that problem somewhat, but it seems like an incredibly narrow window to capitalize on, to where you'd need to semi-automate your offense to line up perfectly with the amnesia attack proc.

They could, of course, also be useful in slowing down say, a monk's offense, such as if the amnesia proc went off at exactly the same time a monk tried to combo you, and it ate their kick or one of their punches, but again, very small window, and just as easily timed defensively as it is offensively.

Jhui

Ya outside of aeon/retard they are pretty useless with proper curing 

Jhui

Aktillum said:

Jhui said:

The timing on them is predictable offensively so they help a lot in aeon and retardation. Outside of that batch commands own it so they aren't useful if you prefix everything you do with a useless command

Thats my point, systems just send a useless command on the amnesia line. Or double-sends a command (I think SVO does this). I understand timing their amnesia attack may help alleviate that problem somewhat, but it seems like an incredibly narrow window to capitalize on, to where you'd need to semi-automate your offense to line up perfectly with the amnesia attack proc.

They could, of course, also be useful in slowing down say, a monk's offense, such as if the amnesia proc went off at exactly the same time a monk tried to combo you, and it ate their kick or one of their punches, but again, very small window, and just as easily timed defensively as it is offensively.

Ideally the monk would prefix their attack with something useless though 

Aktillum

@Jhui You started off saying they were useful and have since posted nothing but examples of how easily they're nerfed 

Jhui

I have retard and aeon faction so ofc I think they're useful

Aktillum

@Jhui are you talking group-fights or 1v1?

Jhui

Both   

Aktillum

@Jhui Like I said, I've only used my amnesia pet as Jester and Serpent. For Serpent, it does nothing, obviously. For Jester, I could get someone with blackout+concussion+aeon+kalmia+paralysis, with amnesia pet hitting them, and it added nothing to the difficulty of escaping that particular "lock".

I could see it having some uses for Magi and Occie, especially if you had 3 amnesia pets in retardation and they were awesomely synchronizing, or with Occie's high affliction output. But if that's the case, people should be aware that amnesia pet has that sort of very limited usefulness.

Its not like you can go and buy 3 amnesia pets and suddenly you're locking people left and right. Which shouldn't be the case, of course, but I still feel they're a tad underpowered for the price. The amnesia add-on is only 400cr, but you're still buying a 750cr pet to go with it. Which makes it an 1100cr+ artifact which, as you said, is easily owned by batch commands.

Rangor

IT stops your opponent from hitting you in retard.

Aktillum

Rangor said:

IT stops your opponent from hitting you in retard.

How? I'd imagine top PvPers have something to double-send their next intended command off the amnesia line, if not just negate it with a useless command. Or does the amnesia affliction stop their already-entered command between the "sluggishness" from retardation?

I mean I'm not a coder but I'd imagine top PvPers have something like
if(have_amnesia)
#send next attack x2

Jacen

Amnesia is burned up immediately even in aeon/retard, so you can still double send actions or prefix a dummy command to trivially negate it.

Jhui

If it hits u in the middle of your command going through and before u can send something to 'cure' it is when it becomes useful in retard/aeon

Jacen

So amnesia gets checked both on sluggish and on the command going thru?

Aktillum

@Jhui I feel that makes sense but having trouble wrapping my brain around it. If I'm understanding you, they would have amnesia while their current command is going through, and then need to double-send their next command. But then, how is that useful if they're just going to negate it on the next command? Or does amnesia stop the command they're already sending through aeon/retardation, making them need to re-send it?

Jhui

That end part u said ya

Rom

Get a shaman/jester to concussion+slow you and see how tough it is to get a command through. It's all about the timing, and as Jhui mentioned that is in your hands.

Aktillum

@Jhui Reeaaallly? Is that "new"? I tested my amnesia pet extensively while concussion+aeoning people as Jester, and I swear it doesn't add to the time it took them to cure out. Could've just been unlucky procs, I guess.

Aktillum

In any case, thanks for clearing that up @Jhui @Rangor. Amnesia pets aren't "useless", just highly based on lucky procs and good timing on your part. /thread I guess.

Penwize

Um ... but that's not true.  Amnesia is cured instantly, even in retardation/aeon.  Pet hits you, you trigger TOUCH AMNESIA to that.  Unless your ping sucks, that touch command will eat the amnesia before anything else can happen.

Literally the only time I can think of amnesia pets being useful is to prevent force from stopping you from cancelling a channeled ability, by having the amnesia pet attack you.

Austere

Penwize said:

Um ... but that's not true.  Amnesia is cured instantly, even in retardation/aeon.  Pet hits you, you trigger TOUCH AMNESIA to that.  Unless your ping sucks, that touch command will eat the amnesia before anything else can happen.

Literally the only time I can think of amnesia pets being useful is to prevent force from stopping you from cancelling a channeled ability, by having the amnesia pet attack you.

This post makes me happy that I never thought of a good pet for Austere.  Came close to getting one numerous times,  just couldn't think of a good power animal for me.  

Jhui

Penwize said:

Um ... but that's not true.  Amnesia is cured instantly, even in retardation/aeon.  Pet hits you, you trigger TOUCH AMNESIA to that.  Unless your ping sucks, that touch command will eat the amnesia before anything else can happen.

Literally the only time I can think of amnesia pets being useful is to prevent force from stopping you from cancelling a channeled ability, by having the amnesia pet attack you.

That's exactly what I said it does but that does help clarify it for the people that don't know

Amranu

Jhui's amnesia pet got me killed yesterday, stopped curing from being re-enabled after pause at which point he wrecked me

Santar

Amnesia has been a very limited mechanic since the invention of it.

People are handling it today about as well as they were handling it in 2006.

There doesn't need to be a strong double afflicting pet duo enhancing every fully artied person's class. 

If the amnesia were doing a worthwhile effect on a regular basis, it'd be pretty overpowered.

There's a couple of fringe situations that amnesia is still really good in, though.

Rangor

Penwize said:

Um ... but that's not true.  Amnesia is cured instantly, even in retardation/aeon.  Pet hits you, you trigger TOUCH AMNESIA to that.  Unless your ping sucks, that touch command will eat the amnesia before anything else can happen.

Literally the only time I can think of amnesia pets being useful is to prevent force from stopping you from cancelling a channeled ability, by having the amnesia pet attack you.

Hmm. Svo had a trigger for that which completely wrecked my serverside curing for some reason.

Aktillum

Well now I'm just more confused. Some are saying they're useful, others saying they're useful in like 1 or 2 rare fringe situations.

I can agree with @Santar that if you had multiple pets doing worthwhile effect on a constant basis, it'd be OP.

On the other hand, are they worth the 1200cr? (750 pet + 400 amnesia upgrade). For that steep of a price, I feel they should be worth more than 1 or 2 extreme fringe situations. Especially since they're non-refundable (can't trade pets / pet upgrades in for bound cr).

Antonius

Amnesia isn't the only benefit of an artefact pet, so I don't think it's really fair to balance the full cost against the effectiveness of amnesia.

I'm still not sure if it's worth 400 credits, but at that price you should at least expect it to be a lot less useful than if you think it costs 1200 credits.