March 2015 Classlead

Xinna

  Amranu said:

Shaman isn't 100% guaranteed lock with vodun, but against someone that does not precache a considerable amount of herbs, quad limb mangle is not pleasant at all. We do certainly have nice tricks though, that's for sure.

What Vaehl said is pretty spot on. Even just statements like the above really operate under the assumption that there is 1 tactic that shaman can do, and that you have mastered that tactic. Top tier fighters just don't think like that. If something doesn't work, try something else. Most classes (but -especially- a class like shaman) just don't really have upper limits. There's -always- something better you can do.

If you think there isn't, you won't figure it out.

Amranu

I'm more than just a one trick wonder, I specifically mentioned quad break because I had just beat Santar with it, and it is one of the most effective tactics when it can be pulled off. I have a few other ways I like to lock versus certain classes, and some other parlor tricks that work from time to time, but there's room to add more.

Xinna

Amranu said:

I'm more than just a one trick wonder, I specifically mentioned quad break because I had just beat Santar with it, and it is one of the most effective tactics when it can be pulled off. I have a few other ways I like to lock versus certain classes, and some other parlor tricks that work from time to time, but there's room to add more.

Hey, I'm not commenting on your abilities. I've never fought you. I'm saying that when you say that such and such isn't possible, or isn't as strong as other classes, you're somewhat implying that you simply have not unlocked your class's potential yet. You don't need to defend yourself, though. I'm not saying anything about what you do or do not do.

Tharvis

Holy wow, this thread made me read the Artificing classleads.. Who proposed a buff to Destroy that does damage/STUNS on a failed(!) destroy attempt with damage and stun duration based on ablaze stacks? Because Destroy is in a very nice position (in my opinion anyway) already.

Then there's a classlead about ..staffstrike fire counting for the Destroy stacks. Which would essentially make it possible to staffstrike fire/scorch during dehydrate, and need 2 cycles to Destroy at minimum, 3-4 at maximum compared to the current 4 cycles at minimum, 6-7 cycles at maximum (assuming you can keep them in the room)

Some of these classleads are quite literally... imbalanced to the extreme

Amranu

Destroy is in a terrible place, not sure what you're talking about. With proper curing it is virtually impossible to pull off, with or without diadem. That wasn't my classlead, but destroy needs some love.

Tharvis

Destroy does need -some- love, and yes with proper curing it is rather hard (but not impossible) to pull off, but these classleads about it are just... way over the top, and honestly with the ablaze stacking I see very few ways to spice it up a bit without going into the massively overpowered area

Klendathu

Classlead 108 possible solution:  (Also delete Shaman and Jhui)

Poor @Jhui

Alaskar

Regarding Destroy and Magi classleads in general: I, personally, can't wait for OP Magi, and I've a good feeling about these classleads, lol. In all seriousness though, it kind of seems, to me at least, that if a person just prioritizes ablaze and dehydrate over their limbs when the kill sequence starts, they can easily just...not get hit with it. They've probably initiated tumble as well, so there's not a lot a Magi can do. Assuming they don't cure their legs long enough to put out ablaze, which will be something like 6-8 seconds, assuming timeflux (1.5 per apply, right?), they've either tumbled out in that time, or I can't damage them out by then. I could drop retard, with its 3 second EQ.

I'm not saying it needs to be changed, as I'm not anywhere near qualified to make such a statement, but I wouldn't be upset if it became a little more viable.

Tharvis

Tumble's timer could be increased a tad bit more in flux + broken limbs, maybe

Amranu

This is what I have, best case scenario for getting destroy off with diadem. This scenario involves aflame being set to priority 1, so restoration is not applied with aflame. Magi is assumed to be on balance/eq for the restoration and inferno is assumed to proc within the 6 second restoration time.

0 restoration

0.1 fire/scorch 2

inferno 3

2.6 scorch 4

4.3 scorch 5

6 destroy/apply

From what I can see, there's a 0.1 second window in the best case. Am I missing something?

Alaskar

So, with server queuing, it's still possible. Without a diadem, I should forget even trying if they decide they should start curing correctly?

Amranu

Yeah, can't destroy without diadem at all. And can only destroy if both lucky and if your opponent is an idiot.

Hasar

Main problem is magi is lack of any hinder while prepping. Staffstrike once then run away is a boring way to fight. I don't see any problem with destroy/pummel currently as kill methods in themselves.

Amranu

If you save tree for 4-5 aflame stacks, it is even more ridiculously impossible to pull off.

Definitely needs an overhaul of some kind.

Xinna

Amranu said:

This is what I have, best case scenario for getting destroy off with diadem. This scenario involves aflame being set to priority 1, so restoration is not applied with aflame. Magi is assumed to be on balance/eq for the restoration and inferno is assumed to proc within the 6 second restoration time.

0 restoration

0.1 fire/scorch 2

inferno 3

2.6 scorch 4

4.3 scorch 5

6 destroy/apply

From what I can see, there's a 0.1 second window in the best case. Am I missing something?

This really isn't how you should be going about destroying, to be fair. If they're curing ablaze above restoration, you just go ham on their legs and utterly demolish them while efreeti gives ablaze every three seconds and you firestrike every 2.5 seconds? Plus can scorch when you want while off balance, and have timeflux slowing salves?

Ablaze > all else should be a ridiculously easy fight for magi. I was testing this on test server, and I had someone prone for 20 seconds, after I stopped attacking completely, with these prios.

Never assume that "Destroy is useless" if you can't Destroy, if it forces your opponent to have incredibly awful prios that will get them killed in other ways. The purpose is absolutely not to have Destroy be an unstoppable kill that automatically works no matter your opponent's prios.

Your bigger concern should be the people who don't have these priorities, but still manage to dodge destroy via tree + passive curing, or some such.

Alaskar

I'm slightly confused as to how remaining prone really benefits the Magi, especially since they'll just be tumbling out of the room. Assuming you follow them there's not much stopping them from sipping and taking the damage, while they keep tumbling away.

I'm not sure it needs fixing or if that's good or bad, I'm just saying I don't understand how keeping someone prone is necessarily a good thing as far as the Magi is concerned. I could behead, I suppose. And scald to slow down their healing. Which, in some instances, could open up a transfix opportunity, but we're assuming they're prioritizing ablaze. If destabilise were targeted, maybe there'd be something useful. The only thing we have to stop tumble is... destabilise adduction? 

Xinna

If you can't see how having an enemy prone for 20 seconds or longer as a Magi, when you can do anything you like (holocausts, retardation, staffcasts), might benefit you, I can't really help you.

Magi deals quite good damage.

Alaskar

But none of those really do anything different vs a prone opponent. At best, I could get a holocaust in, at which point they're -really- going to tumble, and maybe a staffcast before they tumble out. Retardation just opens up a chance for them to stop me with a Torc. Or even without it, by the time I drop it and it takes effect and I get EQ back, they've been curing for 3 seconds solid, which is two applications, so they can squeeze in a restoration apply, then go back to mending in six seconds, which is only three burns. I think damaging someone out past a certain HP, unless I'm loaded with arties, is pretty much a no-go, which is what I feel prompted the addition of actual finishers to the Magi arsenal.

I really don't want to be argumentative, as I'm certainly not a good combatant, but like I said, I don't think I can damage someone out if they're just sitting there curing burns, in the allotted time. Especially since holocaust is so telegraphed, they instantly know what's coming. 

And for the record, I think Destroy should be -difficult- to pull off, especially since it bypasses burst, and with sub-optimal curing it's pretty simple to pull off, but really, tree or active curing really puts a stop on it

Amranu

Having thought about it I agree with Xinna that there's a lot of possibilities with being able to keep someone prone and not curing mangles. I still wish Destroy was a little more viable, but its threat is good enough to pull off some funny stuff.

Santar

Are you really making up reasons for how you can't win a fight with retardation when your opponent is starting off proned for close to 10 seconds?

C'mon dude. I'm not sure what to even say if you feel that way.

Tharvis

Hasar said:

Main problem is magi is lack of any hinder while prepping. Staffstrike once then run away is a boring way to fight. I don't see any problem with destroy/pummel currently as kill methods in themselves.

this is basically the core of the entire situation where magi is lacking, problem is finding a good solution. If the hinder was slightly better, Destroy would be getting some love indirectly without being made massively overpowered/crazy easy to pull off

Mizik

I kind of miss untankable magi. Was a good niche.