Bashing Areas

Eld

Iocun said:

Eld said:

If it's just an added piece of information available for all areas, it is a source of information on which areas might be good hunting for your level, but without singling any of them out as "bashing spots" as opposed to "questing spots" or "mudsexing spots" or whatever; you could argue, of course, that it tends toward reducing all areas to bashing spots, but I don't think that all areas being potential bashing spots (as well as potential questing spots, or potential <whatever you're looking for> spots) seems too out of keeping with the vision you're arguing for.

A list of "which areas might be good hunting for your level" automatically carries an implication of "these areas are meant for bashing". Sure, the game might even explicitly state that they can also be used for questing or whatever, but the initial impression of "that place is meant to give good XP for my level if I kill the denizens" still sticks.

I've experienced this countless times. A new player might first not even consider that the npcs of denizen villages might be used as bashing targets, as after all - those aren't monsters in some dungeon, but people, and many traditional RPGs don't even allow you to kill those. Later, they read some in-game hunting list and suddenly see that place X is listed as a bashing spot and they're all like "oh, that's a bashing place too? Awesome. And it fits for my level? Great!" - so they go there and hunt, no matter if they're playing an evil character, a good character, or whatever, because after all: the game considers it a hunting spot, so it's fair game!

The issue here is that many new players are confronted with lists based on what places are suitable for their level long before they are confronted with the expectation of basing their hunting practices on personal RP. This is further compounded by the fact that players that come from a more powergaming background are much more likely to focus on such level lists than RP recommendations, unless the latter are really stressed and the former downplayed.

Lists like this, which focus on hard mechanical differences rather than in-game lore, will almost definitely have a detrimental effect on the perception of the game world as a deep, realistic place and move it more into a powergaming direction.

My main point was that if it's provided for all areas (in their HELP 12 entries, for example), it's not really singling out particular areas as implicitly "meant for bashing". In that sense, I think it's at least less bad than most IG lists of recommended bashing spots, because it doesn't offer the same separation of areas into "bashing" and "other" categories. It does, as I mentioned, still serve to emphasise somewhat that all areas can be hunted, and I do understand the concern on that front. It may be that I'm underestimating the impact; it hadn't occurred to me, for example, that people might assume that some denizens/villages/whatever are explicitly not attackable (probably indicative of my own more powergaming background, I suppose).

I suspect that the magnitude of the effects you're worried about would depend a lot on the mode of presentation. I can't really see new players going very long without realizing that pretty much anything is a potential target, and while I agree that joining a house out of the intro tour and promptly being pointed to a list of areas with the best xp for different levels encourages that way of thinking about things, I don't really see the same effect from, say, HELP <area> including a note estimating how dangerous the area is (be it as a level range or something more vague). I also don't know how helpful such a thing would be for new players. Either way, I would certainly agree that concerns such as yours about the effect on the atmosphere of the game should be heavily weighted in decisions about whether to include such information and in what form.

Mathonwy

I am pretty sure the unidimensional tedium of bashing is going to have more of a detrimental effect on people's perception of the depth of the game than level-appropriate lists of places to bash will. Having access to this sort of information is more of what I'd view as an anti-frustration feature than anything else.

Also, look at Shallam/Targossas for just how engrossing passive RP-based restrictions on places you can get your grind on are. Remember that time we had to start a new Raves thread exclusively for bashing restrictions because all of the people who played in those cities wouldn't stop going on about how amazing and fun they were?

Iocun

Plain city-wide bashing restrictions aren't exceptionally fun, no. (Bashing without those restrictions isn't much more fun either, though.)

Exploring and discussing the whole issue of denizen interaction/hunting and encouraging people to find their personal approach to it can very well be fun however. I can say that the whole GoM business has contributed very positively to my playing experience and I hope that some of my interactions with hunters (or would-be hunters) of Moghedu have provided them with fun beyond F1 clicking as well. Apart from this, I've had many highly interesting talks with (now former) house mates about hunting practices and how they relate to our house ideals - which stemmed from a novice originally only being interested in finding suitable bashing spots for his level, but leading to a discussion that was distinctly more intense and interactive than a normal bashing session.

Now, I'm not saying that things of this sort can't or won't happen when more emphasis is being placed by the game on streamlining bashing mechanics.

The thing is just that, as you said, bashing in Achaea is mechanically an "unidimensional tedium". Clearly, bashing mechanics aren't one of Achaea's strong points. So the more the mechanical side of bashing is being emphasized, the more we're emphasizing a weak point of the game, rather than the aspects that make Achaea a great game despite of this, such as having a huge, deep world, with carefully hand-described locations and inhabitants which don't prescribe one particular mode of interaction, but simply exist as an environment for your character to develop itself.

Ahmet

Caoimhaen said:

@Sarapis Annwyn isn't 100 plus...at least..Not the forest, lake, mud people(can't remember the name) and Sidhe. As level 81 I can handle it with runes(and without, but I gotta be more careful) as long as I dont do certain rooms with a Sidhe knight and Lady one. Insidhe might be 90-100. Are we taking people, without artefacts? Because I see Annwyn as a plausible area for me  hunt and do just fine.

Erm... mister Caoimhaen, I'm level 80 currently and I won't TOUCH the Sidhe. I have trouble with more than one thing at once in the lake and the forest, and don't even get me started on the Kelpies. Then again I only have 13 con. Then again in the other direction, scales OP.

Ahmet

Plus those Harae things (that consider to not one to be trifled with btw) wreck me harder than the Zanzi (crushingly strong) smugglers.

Rangor

Lvl is a bad way to judge what you should be hunting. Max hp is better, but in the end it depends on many things. Health, crit rate, class and so on.

Nizana

I'm still kind of a noob in everything Achaea. I've tried to learn to fight but have had poor success thus far, and from what I've been able to discover bashing-wise, I can only really hit Azdun, Manara, Creville (risky as hell, but Transmogrify helps make me ambitious), Goblin Village, and Xhaiden Dale.

 I have no idea where else to bash, and these places tend to be wiped out which results in a great deal of idling. Level 81, 3783 hp, Occultist. Bashing is boring. Manara, while boring, still nets me about 1% clearing the lower level and the one above it. I prefer that 1% over bashing Creville and being face-smashed by a random group of hostile Dwellers and Inmates.

A lot of the places mentioned that I attempted bashing destroy me. I think my bashing level, according to that chart, is around Lv. 20-40, and maybe up to Lv. 60 if I am exceedingly lucky. Every time I die and see all the progress I made over 2 hours of attempting to bash go to waste is a moment where I weigh how much I actually want to keep playing.

That's my noobie input, because I quit once for almost a year because of pre-80 bashing, where 1 death = 15% xp loss and I was only really able to make 5-10% a day, and that's when I was bashing riskily.
(edit: This was before I started going to school and working. Nowadays, I'd be happy just to make 5% a day on those areas, but like I said, they tend to be bashed out every time I try.)

Also.. sorry about the chunks of text, but a lot of this is just experience due to a lack of knowledge.. which noobies tend to have. That, and the regrettable decision to play a Houseless/Cityless character as a noob.

Nicaara

Right now, I kill while I explore. This works for me because I never had that fun little minimap 7 years ago, and I had a hell of a time figuring out what Achaea looked like, and not getting lost, and I never was able to explore like I wanted to. This may not be the most efficient method of experience gain, but at least it's not mind-numbing.

I end up killing a lot of animals. This makes sense for me, because eating anything but meat is for chumps if you ask Nicaara, but it's not very efficient. I enjoy killing gnolls, because they're lazy, hedonistic, slaving bastards. I kill orcs because they used to be nice people before the Tsol'teth ruined them, but now they're all assholes. However, I refuse to kill the trolls of Riagath because they're perfectly reasonable people, and haven't done anything but defend themselves. I refuse to hunt in common bashing places such as Tsol'aa village and Arcadia, which are full of innocent people who never done nothin bad to you.

I think there's a bit of an imbalance between "good" bashing areas and "evil" bashing areas.. mainly because "innocent", for me at least, can be incorporated into the "good". I want more evil bastard villages.

This isn't an MMORPG where you get a big badass looking sword that shoots laser beams and cackle hellishly and wave it around all the way to level 80. In MMOs you can use the same abilities on denizens as you can on players. You can afflict them, you can break their legs. Many of them can cure their afflictions with their own abilities, can heal in different ways, and you can interrupt their healing. If we could do these to denizens in Achaea, it would be a lot more immersive and a hell of a lot less mind-numbing. MMOs give you time to adjust to learning how to interrupt, and then make it nearly essential when you get to dungeons and raids. We could do the same thing with our newbies - start them out nice and slow, then when experience gets harder to find, and their interest in Achaea begins to wane, give them more and more dynamic combat. Sure, you can still F1 to victory, you don't have to interrupt their heals.. but it's going to take longer because of it.

Providing more bashing areas isn't the answer.. making it less of a chore is. This is supposed to be a game, where you have fun, not where you go to sit around and press F1 and daydream about what it's like to be a dragon. There's a way to improve bashing without killing immersion, and it's by letting me set bears on fire.

Sarapis

Nicaara said:

Right now, I kill while I explore. This works for me because I never had that fun little minimap 7 years ago, and I had a hell of a time figuring out what Achaea looked like, and not getting lost, and I never was able to explore like I wanted to. This may not be the most efficient method of experience gain, but at least it's not mind-numbing.

I end up killing a lot of animals. This makes sense for me, because eating anything but meat is for chumps if you ask Nicaara, but it's not very efficient. I enjoy killing gnolls, because they're lazy, hedonistic, slaving bastards. I kill orcs because they used to be nice people before the Tsol'teth ruined them, but now they're all assholes. However, I refuse to kill the trolls of Riagath because they're perfectly reasonable people, and haven't done anything but defend themselves. I refuse to hunt in common bashing places such as Tsol'aa village and Arcadia, which are full of innocent people who never done nothin bad to you.

I think there's a bit of an imbalance between "good" bashing areas and "evil" bashing areas.. mainly because "innocent", for me at least, can be incorporated into the "good". I want more evil bastard villages.

This isn't an MMORPG where you get a big badass looking sword that shoots laser beams and cackle hellishly and wave it around all the way to level 80. In MMOs you can use the same abilities on denizens as you can on players. You can afflict them, you can break their legs. Many of them can cure their afflictions with their own abilities, can heal in different ways, and you can interrupt their healing. If we could do these to denizens in Achaea, it would be a lot more immersive and a hell of a lot less mind-numbing. MMOs give you time to adjust to learning how to interrupt, and then make it nearly essential when you get to dungeons and raids. We could do the same thing with our newbies - start them out nice and slow, then when experience gets harder to find, and their interest in Achaea begins to wane, give them more and more dynamic combat. Sure, you can still F1 to victory, you don't have to interrupt their heals.. but it's going to take longer because of it.

Providing more bashing areas isn't the answer.. making it less of a chore is. This is supposed to be a game, where you have fun, not where you go to sit around and press F1 and daydream about what it's like to be a dragon. There's a way to improve bashing without killing immersion, and it's by letting me set bears on fire.

Yep, we're working on it, but it's only going to be incremental improvements. We're never going to spend our time making Achaea a great bashing game. Waste of time. There are hundreds of games out there that focus on bashing and don't spend any effort on open-world PvP or politics or RP. I made the intentional decision to pay minimal attention to PvE compared to PvP (in its various forms including combat and politics) when starting Achaea, and it was pretty indisputably the right choice. There's no way to make PvE a competitive advantage when people can go fire up a game like WoW with a development team of hundreds that focuses almost exclusively on PvE. 

Bluntly, if your thing is PvE, you're better off finding games that specialize in it, of which there are many, including other MUDs.

Nicaara

Sarapis said:

Nicaara said:

Right now, I kill while I explore. This works for me because I never had that fun little minimap 7 years ago, and I had a hell of a time figuring out what Achaea looked like, and not getting lost, and I never was able to explore like I wanted to. This may not be the most efficient method of experience gain, but at least it's not mind-numbing.

I end up killing a lot of animals. This makes sense for me, because eating anything but meat is for chumps if you ask Nicaara, but it's not very efficient. I enjoy killing gnolls, because they're lazy, hedonistic, slaving bastards. I kill orcs because they used to be nice people before the Tsol'teth ruined them, but now they're all assholes. However, I refuse to kill the trolls of Riagath because they're perfectly reasonable people, and haven't done anything but defend themselves. I refuse to hunt in common bashing places such as Tsol'aa village and Arcadia, which are full of innocent people who never done nothin bad to you.

I think there's a bit of an imbalance between "good" bashing areas and "evil" bashing areas.. mainly because "innocent", for me at least, can be incorporated into the "good". I want more evil bastard villages.

This isn't an MMORPG where you get a big badass looking sword that shoots laser beams and cackle hellishly and wave it around all the way to level 80. In MMOs you can use the same abilities on denizens as you can on players. You can afflict them, you can break their legs. Many of them can cure their afflictions with their own abilities, can heal in different ways, and you can interrupt their healing. If we could do these to denizens in Achaea, it would be a lot more immersive and a hell of a lot less mind-numbing. MMOs give you time to adjust to learning how to interrupt, and then make it nearly essential when you get to dungeons and raids. We could do the same thing with our newbies - start them out nice and slow, then when experience gets harder to find, and their interest in Achaea begins to wane, give them more and more dynamic combat. Sure, you can still F1 to victory, you don't have to interrupt their heals.. but it's going to take longer because of it.

Providing more bashing areas isn't the answer.. making it less of a chore is. This is supposed to be a game, where you have fun, not where you go to sit around and press F1 and daydream about what it's like to be a dragon. There's a way to improve bashing without killing immersion, and it's by letting me set bears on fire.

Yep, we're working on it, but it's only going to be incremental improvements. We're never going to spend our time making Achaea a great bashing game. Waste of time. There are hundreds of games out there that focus on bashing and don't spend any effort on open-world PvP or politics or RP. I made the intentional decision to pay minimal attention to PvE compared to PvP (in its various forms including combat and politics) when starting Achaea, and it was pretty indisputably the right choice. There's no way to make PvE a competitive advantage when people can go fire up a game like WoW with a development team of hundreds that focuses almost exclusively on PvE. 

Bluntly, if your thing is PvE, you're better off finding games that specialize in it, of which there are many, including other MUDs.

Edit: Also, not to be disrespectful, but I'm not sure I get your point.

PvE with graphics = better than PvE without graphics.
PvP with graphics = still better than PvP without graphics.

PvP in WoW, Guild Wars 2, ESO = way better than their PvE. Kinda the same way here. But..

With the exception of GW2, you can't PvP effectively without getting to max level. To get to max level, you have to PvE. That DEFINITELY applies to Achaea. Whether graphics are involved or not, PvE is still pretty mind-numbing, and still very necessary (except I loved ESO PvE, namely the quest progression through your faction zone, it was done very well and very engaging).

MMO's have to take steps to make PvE a little less boring.. we should definitely be doing the same thing here. I think afflictions and interrupts would be a fantastic implementation.

Sarapis

I'm going to assume you used a little girl expressing unreasonable feelings of entitlement ironically, chuckle, and move on.

You say PvE in something like WoW is mind-numbing, and yet I watch streams of people doing PvE raids and they get pretty into it, as do some of my friends. It's not for me, but I've also hired designers out of Blizzard at another games company I ran, and I have a rough idea of where most of their resources go - it's not PvP. It's almost entirely PvE. Their PvP is mainly an afterthought, and is slave to the needs of PvE.

And of course, do they even have political power systems? Do they even have admins who spend time assisting RP? They don't. 

Then adjust your expectations even more for the difference in budget size (our annual development budget is barely even a rounding error compared to them...we have three full-time people on Achaea and one very part-time person, and they handle everything from customer service to server maintenance to design to development, etc. That doesn't include me, but I don't get a chance to spend most of my time actually working on Achaea. Only a relatively smallish section of my time. 

My general point is that while it's wonderful to want to have everything, there's a reason you can't launch a spaceship and play the equivalent of Eve Online in WoW. There's a reason that you can't go planet-side in Eve Online. There's a reason the latest Dragon Age had only three classes. There's a reason Runescape doesn't have graphics on the level of Skyrim. There's a reason Skyrim can't approach the level of NPC intelligence in Dwarf Fortress. There's a reason the world isn't destructible in Call of Duty like it is in Minecraft. Etc etc etc.

Game development is all about where you decide to commit your always highly-limited resources, no matter what your budget level is. In our case, that budget is tiny, and it's therefore even more important we focus on why people play our game. (Hint: It's not for PvE.)

Naverre

Sarapis said:

There's a reason that you can't go planet-side in Eve Online.

*coughDust514cough*
  

Nicaara

Sarapis said:

I'm going to assume you used a little girl expressing unreasonable feelings of entitlement ironically, chuckle, and move on.

You say PvE in something like WoW is mind-numbing, and yet I watch streams of people doing PvE raids and they get pretty into it, as do some of my friends. It's not for me, but I've also hired designers out of Blizzard at another games company I ran, and I have a rough idea of where most of their resources go - it's not PvP. It's almost entirely PvE. Their PvP is mainly an afterthought, and is slave to the needs of PvE.

And of course, do they even have political power systems? Do they even have admins who spend time assisting RP? They don't. 

Then adjust your expectations even more for the difference in budget size (our annual development budget is barely even a rounding error compared to them...we have three full-time people on Achaea and one very part-time person, and they handle everything from customer service to server maintenance to design to development, etc. That doesn't include me, but I don't get a chance to spend most of my time actually working on Achaea. Only a relatively smallish section of my time. 

My general point is that while it's wonderful to want to have everything, there's a reason you can't launch a spaceship and play the equivalent of Eve Online in WoW. There's a reason that you can't go planet-side in Eve Online. There's a reason the latest Dragon Age had only three classes. There's a reason Runescape doesn't have graphics on the level of Skyrim. There's a reason Skyrim can't approach the level of NPC intelligence in Dwarf Fortress. There's a reason the world isn't destructible in Call of Duty like it is in Minecraft. Etc etc etc.

Game development is all about where you decide to commit your always highly-limited resources, no matter what your budget level is. In our case, that budget is tiny, and it's therefore even more important we focus on why people play our game. (Hint: It's not for PvE.)

There's a reason I'm not playing MMO's. You have a roleplay environment here that you can't get anywhere else, deeply entrenched history that is interesting and useful to actually know, and a small player base that forms a real community. I came here to escape the boring and the repetitive, the rush to max level and best gear mentality. But I really didn't escape at all. The pressure to get dragon is real, the pressure to get artefacts is overwhelming.

The only point I was actually trying to make is that if you're going for a PvP focused game, you can't ignore the core of PvE combat when it is the only way to get to that point where you're on the same level as all the people who partake in PvP. Unless you want to get wrecked, of course, but I suppose that's up to you.

I know you have plans for improvement already. But I think they should include incremental improvements that make PvE more engaging, most of all. It's an integral, unavoidable part of the game, and I don't think it's fair to dismiss it as a "waste of time". It's unarguably a part of the game as a whole, and if you'd like to keep more people playing, I think a good place to start looking into improving next.

Edit: when you're done with all that other awesome treehugger related stuff I'm looking forward to

Kayeil

It's not entirely true that PvE is the only way to get on the same level as PvPers. I think @Vaehl is one of those examples of someone who barely touches PvE and levels decently on PvP alone.

Also, the admins will never fully please everyone anyways, I'm afraid. There are plenty of us who've enjoyed PvE as it is for years, though some others may consider it monotonous or boring. I also believe that even if the admins made significant changes, some of these same people would still be unhappy because they'd find no matter how much it's "improved," they still consider it as repetitive as before. Honestly, I'm not even sure if I'm looking forward to changes because I like PvE how it is now, but we'll see!

Edit: Forgot to add, artefacts aren't really that necessary, and can be more of a crutch. The better PvPers learn without arties usually, and pick them up later. I didn't invest in artefacts until after dragon, and I still barely have any hunting artefacts. More just random novelties that I like because I hunt just fine without being super bulked up on artefacts.

Eld

@Nicaara, @Sarapis isn't saying it's a waste of time to make pve at least a bit more engaging (obviously, otherwise they wouldn't have brought on Mortori specifically to work on those improvements), just that it would be a waste of time to try to bring it up to the level of much larger games where pve is the primary focus; they don't have the resources to be competitive in that regard and trying to do so would take resources away from the roleplaying environment and pvp system that are the real selling points of Achaea.

I do think you overestimate the importance of high levels to combat (you really don't need to be Dragon to get into it, or even to get good), but that's somewhat beside the point. It seems like you're taking @Sarapis's statements about the planned pve changes being incremental improvements rather than a complete overhaul as completely writing off concerns about the state of Achaean pve, rather than the cautionary statement about the potential scope of said changes that they seem to be intended as.

Nicaara

Eld said:

@Nicaara, @Sarapis isn't saying it's a waste of time to make pve at least a bit more engaging (obviously, otherwise they wouldn't have brought on Mortori specifically to work on those improvements), just that it would be a waste of time to try to bring it up to the level of much larger games where pve is the primary focus; they don't have the resources to be competitive in that regard and trying to do so would take resources away from the roleplaying environment and pvp system that are the real selling points of Achaea.

I do think you overestimate the importance of high levels to combat (you really don't need to be Dragon to get into it, or even to get good), but that's somewhat beside the point. It seems like you're taking @Sarapis's statements about the planned pve changes being incremental improvements rather than a complete overhaul as completely writing off concerns about the state of Achaean pve, rather than the cautionary statement about the potential scope of said changes that they seem to be intended as.

Yeah, I wasn't saying that PvE should be a primary focus, that would be crazy! But hey, I am pretty crazy. Anyway I think this is just a lot of misunderstanding each other, and me randomly expressing my opinions with no particular focus. That said, it's probably a good time to drop the topic now, and discuss.. I dunno.. bashing areas.

Nizana

I think that one way to promote RP, and the influence of House and City on the places you bash, is for there to be a list up to a certain level, or if not that, a sort of mini-list with maybe 1-3 places to bash at for every 10-20 level mark. That way, there is still that sense of discovery in trying to find where to bash. Or interaction, where the House people or City mates can lead you through the places that they believe are bash worthy.

(Note: The only people who will get kinda swept under the rug from this would be rogues.. because they have to force interaction in some way. It doesn't usually just happen unless their description is just 'amazing'... or they are Siren/(female) )

Something like that. Releasing an entire list of every place with their level range can (maybe, possibly) cause a zerg rush to murder the entire game because NOW WE KNOW! At the same time, I doubt it'll result in that.

Just food for thought.

I hope that was coherent O.O

Caladbolg

Sarapis said:

I'm going to assume you used a little girl expressing unreasonable feelings of entitlement ironically, chuckle, and move on.

You say PvE in something like WoW is mind-numbing, and yet I watch streams of people doing PvE raids and they get pretty into it, as do some of my friends. It's not for me, but I've also hired designers out of Blizzard at another games company I ran, and I have a rough idea of where most of their resources go - it's not PvP. It's almost entirely PvE. Their PvP is mainly an afterthought, and is slave to the needs of PvE.

And of course, do they even have political power systems? Do they even have admins who spend time assisting RP? They don't. 

Then adjust your expectations even more for the difference in budget size (our annual development budget is barely even a rounding error compared to them...we have three full-time people on Achaea and one very part-time person, and they handle everything from customer service to server maintenance to design to development, etc. That doesn't include me, but I don't get a chance to spend most of my time actually working on Achaea. Only a relatively smallish section of my time. 

My general point is that while it's wonderful to want to have everything, there's a reason you can't launch a spaceship and play the equivalent of Eve Online in WoW. There's a reason that you can't go planet-side in Eve Online. There's a reason the latest Dragon Age had only three classes. There's a reason Runescape doesn't have graphics on the level of Skyrim. There's a reason Skyrim can't approach the level of NPC intelligence in Dwarf Fortress. There's a reason the world isn't destructible in Call of Duty like it is in Minecraft. Etc etc etc.

Game development is all about where you decide to commit your always highly-limited resources, no matter what your budget level is. In our case, that budget is tiny, and it's therefore even more important we focus on why people play our game. (Hint: It's not for PvE.)

To be honest, if you setup raids in Achaea against big monsters, Maybe give a couple of items that allowed people to take less damage from said monster and holding threat on said monster. increased healing to other players besides jester/occie/priest/paladin (I think that's it) with something that also limited how many people could go in at once. pve in achaea could work very well that way.

While we have big monsters, it typically just comes into play of hp stacking dragons smashing kill target. 

On the other hand would likely all turn into automation anyways so what's the point of even trying?

Kayeil said:

Edit: Forgot to add, artefacts aren't really that necessary, and can be more of a crutch. The better PvPers learn without arties usually, and pick them up later. I didn't invest in artefacts until after dragon, and I still barely have any hunting artefacts. More just random novelties that I like because I hunt just fine without being super bulked up on artefacts.

That depends on the class, some classes are extremely hindered by not having artifacts, like speed reduction not being able to pull off x x x or x and are limited to one killing method that's still typically extremely hard to pull off.

Which basically is classes that have speed artifacts to make them faster. 

Although to be fair, back in my day jabbing someone with a shortsword envenomed with Voyria was likely going to get you a kill.