Shaman Room Hindrance

Austere

It's three fashions more per limb because he is artied to the teeth.  Realistically its two with lucky truefashion. Do you have health arties to slow his prep down?  If you don't, quit being a scrub if you want top tier. If you do,  by this logic, he should prep you as fast as he does anyone with 4k health.  

Amranu

Austere what?

The 3 fashion difference is global. Doesn't matter who I'm fighting, if I can or cannot use Maligus against people. I'm being taxed in all fights for Maligus regardless of Maligus viability against that opponent. Jesters don't have this cost, Shamans should not have this cost. If Maligus has balance problems, balance Maligus. I should not be taxed for having an ability I cannot use against 100% of opponents.

Jhui was only an example, as he is 100% completely immune to Maligus as far as I can tell. Other people that are effectively immune is: anyone that simply runs if you start draining mana or cursing (most prep classes, some momentum can do this too), and anyone with mana regen or sip ring arties. Against these people (the first of which makes up the vast majority of the people I fight against), Maligus essentially is never cost effective, meaning I'm straight fashioning precisely like Jester, meaning I should have the same costs as Jester.

Jinsun

Wait let me get this straight. Did you just say you weren't arguing about the mechanics of mangle then launch into two paragraphs about mangles cost vs use. I guess you could argue the semantics of it. I think most of us think mangle -should- have a high cost given the unavoidable nature. Every other limb prep class has to start over from zero if they flub the finisher and so should you.

Jhui

The point amranu is trying to make is valid. If you don't think shamans need a buff that can be valid too but it's not what he's trying to discuss

Amranu

I'm defining mechanics as anything regarding how the ability itself works on use, and the cost separately.

We do have to start over if we flub, perhaps not from 0 but neither do Jesters. Considering the cost Jesters get is 4, why do I have to pay 7 for Maligus even though Maligus cannot be used against anyone with enough intelligence to push a direction when their mana gets low enough

The reason given by @Makarios is Maligus. I've pointed out this shouldn't be the case, so do you have any arguments specifically for Shamans receiving the cost increase over Jesters that takes into account my previous reasons why I believe this shouldn't be the case?

Edit: That was for @Jinsun, obviously.

Tael

Jinsun said:

Wait let me get this straight. Did you just say you weren't arguing about the mechanics of mangle then launch into two paragraphs about mangles cost vs use. I guess you could argue the semantics of it. I think most of us think mangle -should- have a high cost given the unavoidable nature. Every other limb prep class has to start over from zero if they flub the finisher and so should you.

I think you're maybe missing some of the context here.

Mangle got nerfed.

Independently, the cost was reduced.

It got reduced unevenly so there is now a cost difference for mangle between jester and shaman.

The stated reason for this is that shaman have access to Maligus.

As I understand it, Amranu's argument is:

1. Since Maligus can't be used against the people who are already hardest to beat, this is maybe a larger nerf than intended.
2. Since the same logic applies to every vodun ability, why is there suddenly this cost difference only to mangle?

Both of those seem like reasonable points to me. It might be independently true that mangle is very strong and this is a good number of fashions for it, that shaman is already very strong, etc. But those two points in particular seem pretty reasonable to me given the stated justification for the difference in fashions.

(The same being largely true for the BM problem Atalkez brought up - BM might be too strong in general, but that doesn't mean there aren't some corner cases where buffs are justified, so long as they don't make BM stronger across the board.)

Jinsun

Just that it's a cost for having such a great class. Why should occies have to pay for tarot cards then have to inscribe then have to gather karma then study then go make pacts then some of the pacts have to be resummoned over  and over and over throughout a fight? Because that's the cost of your class's flavor. It sucks, it's annoying, but it is not really something that should or needs to be fixed immediately for your convenience.

Amranu

That is an excellent summary of my arguments, yes.

Amranu

You use karma and tarot in virtually every fight and against every opponent. The same is not true for Maligus.

Also, karma and tarot inscribing are passive costs that can be done prior to fights, fashions are obtained during the fight and a larger cost for an ability has an immediate consequence for any fight in which that ability is used.

Jinsun

Ok I think you're missing my issue here. Your arguments have all been, regardless of topic, that it needs to be fixed immediately, as if it's an insurmountable problem, when it's in fact, something that you could wait on classleads to have fixed.

Jinsun

Also they're not passive costs as we've got several entities and abilities that have to  be resummoned and reapplied to be usedto be used after a minute, and orb has to be  every use. To say they're not active costs doesn't really take into account that the each have balances to reuse and a finite amount of uses. 

Amranu

Your opinion of when it should be fixed is irrelevant, but yes I do think that it should be fixed ASAP as if I want to mangle 4 times against some people, it takes me on average 18 seconds longer to get those fashions straight fashioning than it would for Jesters, apparently because of the existance of an ability that should not necessarily be used. 18 seconds is another lock attempt from a Serpent, another double leg prep from a Blademaster or Monk, another cadmus into enlightenment attempt from Occies, etc.

Amranu

You have nothing to compare those to. I have an increased cost over what it should be based on an ability I can't use effectively against a significant amount of my opponents

Jinsun

18 more seconds lol. I almost fell out of my chair laughing. 

Tael

Maybe a little less forum policing about whether you've decided an issue is serious enough to warrant posting about it.

And requiring more fashions is a completely different issue of balance compared to upkeep costs. That seems very obvious.

I have no idea if in the grand scheme of balance it needs changing or not, but questioning the logic of justifying it with Maligus makes perfect sense (as others have attested to), and it's painful to read these stupid tirades about how it's the "cost of flavour" (whatever the hell that means?).

And the "fell out of my chair laughing" stuff isn't making you sound as cool as I think you suspect.

Jinsun

It probably does come across douchey. For that, I apologize. Like I said, may be a valid point but it is making a mountain out of a molehill. It's something that can be adjusted, but isn't ruining the class by any means. It just seems silly to make it a big deal. The class is in a great spot still.

Makarios

Ok, let's try not to get antagonistic and keep this productive.

As there seems a fair bit of disagreement going on, I'll try to clear up a few things:

Maligus is definitely an important factor to consider when we balance powerful fashioning abilities that work towards a finisher. If Maligus is not useable against some people, that will need to be addressed (I have some thoughts here, you can probably expect something in the next day or two).

The second point which I probably should have covered earlier when people asked was that jester and shaman aren't really comparable classes. What they gain from mangles are very different things (in relation to securing a kill). While they definitely can be used in similar ways if you play an entirely vodun/puppetry based strategy, when taken alongside their associated skillsets the options are very different. You'll note that this isn't a unique concept in our classes that share abilities; an illustrative example is highleap, which has no balance cost for blademasters but does have one for bards. In a perfect world we'd have no shared skills/abilities, but that's a bit of a pipe dream.

As a tangential side note, its also worth realising that this is not a new trend for shaman/jester in particular. Concussion is already cheaper for jesters than it is for shamans, for instance, but that's fairly irrelevant.

But yes, you can likely expect some further changes soon.

Dochitha

Makarios said:

Ok, let's try not to get antagonistic and keep this productive.

As there seems a fair bit of disagreement going on, I'll try to clear up a few things:

Maligus is definitely an important factor to consider when we balance powerful fashioning abilities that work towards a finisher. If Maligus is not useable against some people, that will need to be addressed (I have some thoughts here, you can probably expect something in the next day or two).

The second point which I probably should have covered earlier when people asked was that jester and shaman aren't really comparable classes. What they gain from mangles are very different things (in relation to securing a kill). While they definitely can be used in similar ways if you play an entirely vodun/puppetry based strategy, when taken alongside their associated skillsets the options are very different. You'll note that this isn't a unique concept in our classes that share abilities; an illustrative example is highleap, which has no balance cost for blademasters but does have one for bards. In a perfect world we'd have no shared skills/abilities, but that's a bit of a pipe dream.

As a tangential side note, its also worth realising that this is not a new trend for shaman/jester in particular. Concussion is already cheaper for jesters than it is for shamans, for instance, but that's fairly irrelevant.

But yes, you can likely expect some further changes soon.

@Makarios Hearing this is exciting, can't wait! Thank you.