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Shaman Room Hindrance

AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
edited January 2015 in The Matsuhama Arena
While I didn't think of this while classleads were open, I noticed a problem with Shaman that is rather glaring now that it's been pointed out.

Shaman have been a hybrid momentum/prep class for awhile, with vodun being mostly prep and curses being mostly momentum. With Maligus we're becoming even more hybridized where our prep comes from momentum.

The problem is, we have no way to make people stick around to allow us to build any momentum. People can simply leave the room after one or two hits prepping limbs and we cannot stop it, as that point we'll have stuck one affliction which they will instantly cure before coming back to continue prep.

Both of the classes with which Shaman share similarities have room hindrance (specifically, Jester and Apostate) however for some reason we're boned. With the addition of Spiritlore we also have some skills that are decidedly unfinished and in this case I'd like to focus on Tarnel, which is essentially a web tattoo with a slightly faster balance time at the cost of the spirit binding (which is an extreme cost). I propose modifying this skill into room hindrance of some kind.

Here's a few possibilities:

1) Replace Tarnel's active with a targetted active similar to pinshot or hamstring, or make it room wide similar to Occultist tentacles

2) Instead of adding a percent chance to stop movement, a mechanic that most dislike, give an active to Tarnel which strongly encourages the target to stay in the room. For instance have it give a 60 second affliction that drains mana extremely quickly while the target is not in the room with the Shaman (Maybe 10% of current mana every 2 seconds?)

3) Make the active similar to engage, however have it do a large amount of mana damage instead of health damage upon leaving the room

4) Make the active slow down enemies or a single target in a manner similar to rubble or a broken leg when they are within 3 rooms of the Shaman

Just throwing ideas out there, Tarnel as it stands is utterly useless and I think applying a change to it to fix one of the more noticeable flaws with the Shaman class is a good way to go.

Bluef
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Comments

  • ZuysheamZuysheam Member Posts: 19
    What's the balance loss time for Tarnel (the cast itself)? Is it stopped by Buckawn's?

    Has, since the introduction of Spritlore/Maligus, Vodun been nerfed in any way?

    How does the circle of binding work exactly?

    I'm curious what the context is here.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Vodun nerfs are irrelevant - room hindrance is given to the other class with it in the game, so I don't believe this to be the reason it is absent from Shamans.

    Tarnel balance time is 2 seconds with nimble, which is worse than vodun bind. Furthermore the requirement to lose binding means it's a one time per fight thing - rebinding tarnel requires 6 seconds prone, 4 of those seconds entering no commands. It's bloody terrible.

    Ideas 2 and 4 are probably a bit overpowered, but just thought I'd add some alternatives to what most classes already have.
  • TalysinTalysin Member Posts: 575 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No. Not unless you want to give up Vodun. Shaman is already pretty overpowered at the moment. You can't have it all.
    Xinna
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not to mention bananas can't really be used in groups and tower affects the caster, too.

    With proper execution, you can lock before someone even realizes it!
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  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,163 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No chance. If you want room hindrance, you're going to need to think up a good idea to replace Vodun.
    Xinna
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,163 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:

    Shaman have been a hybrid momentum/prep class for awhile, with vodun being mostly prep and curses being mostly momentum. With Maligus we're becoming even more hybridized where our prep comes from momentum.

    The problem is, we have no way to make people stick around to allow us to build any momentum. People can simply leave the room after one or two hits prepping limbs and we cannot stop it, as that point we'll have stuck one affliction which they will instantly cure before coming back to continue prep.

    Shaman is also a prep class of which takes a much longer time to reset than any other prep class in the game. Maligus didn't nerf Shamans in any way, it just gave them an additional option.

    Both of the classes with which Shaman share similarities have room hindrance (specifically, Jester and Apostate) however for some reason we're boned. With the addition of Spiritlore we also have some skills that are decidedly unfinished and in this case I'd like to focus on Tarnel, which is essentially a web tattoo with a slightly faster balance time at the cost of the spirit binding (which is an extreme cost). I propose modifying this skill into room hindrance of some kind.

    I don't know where you get the idea that Shaman is similar to Apostate, which is entirely momentum based. Shamans have the ability to stop a target from leaving a room for at least twenty seconds, if they feel like it. It only takes a minute of prep too, which is nothing in a duel. Jester is a worthwhile comparison, but it falls down when you look beyond the Vodun/Puppetry similarity. Jester is a class designed, literally -designed- to hinder people and keep people locked in a room with them for x amount of time necessary for their channeled instantkills. Shaman isn't the same, there, and has no need for similar room hinder.

    Here's a few possibilities:

    1) Replace Tarnel's active with a targetted active similar to pinshot or hamstring, or make it room wide similar to Occultist tentacles

    2) Instead of adding a percent chance to stop movement, a mechanic that most dislike, give an active to Tarnel which strongly encourages the target to stay in the room. For instance have it give a 60 second affliction that drains mana extremely quickly while the target is not in the room with the Shaman (Maybe 10% of current mana every 2 seconds?)

    3) Make the active similar to engage, however have it do a large amount of mana damage instead of health damage upon leaving the room

    4) Make the active slow down enemies or a single target in a manner similar to rubble or a broken leg when they are within 3 rooms of the Shaman

    Just throwing ideas out there, Tarnel as it stands is utterly useless and I think applying a change to it to fix one of the more noticeable flaws with the Shaman class is a good way to go.

    What does Tarnel actually do currently? 

    I kind of get the impression from Shamans recently that with the addition of Spiritlore, they're forgetting they do have access to Vodun and that it's one of the most powerful skills in the game. Especially at keeping a target in a room for a large amount of time. it would be nonsensical for them to be able to have access to such a powerful offence without having to combine all of their class skills. 
    DartegaXinnaHalos
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2015
    As I already said earlier before all of the vodun hate - Shaman having access to vodun is not the reason they don't have room hindrance. Jesters have the same skill and they have multiple forms of room hindrance, banana and tower. Not to mention that they do not require nearly as much momentum to kill, with both death and jitb neither of which require sustained momentum to begin.

    Adding room hindrance to Spiritlore is easily balanced out with the fact that you have to use a binding for the hindrance, losing out on significant offensive potential.

    Changes are being made to vodun and puppetry to bring it closer in line with other forms of prep. According to class lead responses fashions are going to decay quicker and dolls are going to be lost on death. As stated previously as well, the gaining of fashions as Shaman is moving towards using momentum and as such we need a way to keep people in room that is not 100% countered by riding.

    If someone can explain why Jester gets multiple forms of room hindrance, while the more momentum based Shaman does not be my guest.
    Bluef
  • TalysinTalysin Member Posts: 575 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Let's please stop the Jester-Shaman comparison.
    KuyBluef
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2015
    Talysin said:
    Let's please stop the Jester-Shaman comparison.
    This wouldn't be done except people are saying that Shaman shouldn't get room hindrance based solely on their access to vodun, but are ignoring Jesters having it with Puppetry.

    As for Santar's 'just make a doll' I'd love to! But I can't use Maligus if they run before I get more than two afflictions on them, which is my entire point. We're obviously moving towards a momentum based style but like early 2h Runewarden we have no ability to gain that momentum if the person we're fighting doesn't sit there and let us.
  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,092 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Is this thread for real? Have you fought a real Shaman?

    The only defense to not getting locked right away is to run. No shield.

    Shaman and Jester fighting styles aren't even comparable. Not even close.
    image
    WessuxTalysinHalos
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,978 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think you're forgetting that shaman has massive hindering capability. You can icewall every exit at the same time, paralysis at an extremely fast speed, bind, mangle, etc. Yeah, some of them require fashions, but that's part of being a shaman. 

  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Cooper those are all active hinders, excepting icewalls which is easily countered by mountjump or leap. The problem is we have no way of keeping people in room to build momentum. Sure, we can take ages to fashion normally, then use some fashions to hold them still before we can begin momentum, but tumble destroys that and unlike knights who can usually get at least one dsb off before a tumble finishes, locking people requires too much momentum for that to be a possibility.
  • ZeonZeon Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    They got rid of the lol button?

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    Cooper
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,978 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you don't want to use your new abilities, your vodun hinder, or your curse hinder then I don't know what to tell you.

    Arador
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Talysin said:
    No. Not unless you want to give up Vodun. Shaman is already pretty overpowered at the moment. You can't have it all.
    Jovolo said:
    No chance. If you want room hindrance, you're going to need to think up a good idea to replace Vodun.
    Santar said:
    Vodun is your answer to people that run away from you.
    Mizik said:
    Is this thread for real? Have you fought a real Shaman?

    The only defense to not getting locked right away is to run. No shield.

    Shaman and Jester fighting styles aren't even comparable. Not even close.

    mass agree button (in lieu of an agree button)

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      1. XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Amranu said:
        Talysin said:
        Let's please stop the Jester-Shaman comparison.
        This wouldn't be done except people are saying that Shaman shouldn't get room hindrance based solely on their access to vodun, but are ignoring Jesters having it with Puppetry.

        As for Santar's 'just make a doll' I'd love to! But I can't use Maligus if they run before I get more than two afflictions on them, which is my entire point. We're obviously moving towards a momentum based style but like early 2h Runewarden we have no ability to gain that momentum if the person we're fighting doesn't sit there and let us.


        I never really used bananas when I was jester. The class doesn't need them, and it unnecessarily having them is not reason to unnecessarily give shaman them.

        Icefort > Tower, so unsure why you keep mentioning Tower.

        Maligus is obviously not necessary for fashioning. You can fashion without having momentum. And once you have fashions, you have hinder (read: the best hinder in the game).

        Talysin
      2. AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
        edited January 2015
        Well, I give up. The community doesn't like the idea of Shaman getting new things, fine.

        Will dispute the icefort > tower. Mechanically accurate, obviously but the cost of binding icefort makes it much, much less worthwhile. Either are countered entirely by riding, but Jester gives up no part of it's offense to use tower.
        Bluef
      3. AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,907 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Shaman and Jester are wayyyyy different classes though


        You hug Aurora compassionately.
        SyriBluef
      4. AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
        New plan:

        Delete fashion, give Shamans room hinder.

        Discuss.
      5. VrassVrass Member Posts: 8
        edited January 2015
        Unnecessary.
      6. AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
        Never said it wasn't, I'm just upset that against certain classes/people I have no other option than to fashion spam because if I curse them more than 3 times they simply walk out.
      7. AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Mizik said:
        Amranu said:
        The community doesn't like the idea of Shaman getting new things
        Really, dude? 

        If I had spent the hours Makarios spent giving you a whole new skill just to read this shit, I'd put Runelore back on your whiny ass so fast.

        Shaman is better than it has ever been. 
        You bastid! Don't you touch my Spiritlore!
      8. CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,978 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Amranu said:
        Never said it wasn't, I'm just upset that against certain classes/people I have no other option than to fashion spam because if I curse them more than 3 times they simply walk out.
        And we're upset that you won't even consider using your class abilities to hinder them from just walking out.

        Your complaint is like a knight saying 'I don't want to target limbs, but I want their limbs to break so I can disembowel them'.

        AradorWessuxXinna
      9. KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Good idea. Shaman needs piety. OP approved, plz implement
      10. SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        If you don't like the way your class fundamentally operates, then change class.

        image

        TharvisXinnaHalos
      11. AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
        edited January 2015
        Cooper said:
        Amranu said:
        Never said it wasn't, I'm just upset that against certain classes/people I have no other option than to fashion spam because if I curse them more than 3 times they simply walk out.
        And we're upset that you won't even consider using your class abilities to hinder them from just walking out.

        Your complaint is like a knight saying 'I don't want to target limbs, but I want their limbs to break so I can disembowel them'.

        I do use them, I've been pretty successful with Shaman the last couple weeks.

        I'm trying to show that a lot of Spiritlore is designed towards gathering momentum against someone, using that momentum to drain their mana and gathering fashions that way. I'd like to use this, instead of traditional fashioning because I think it's an interesting direction to take the class. Problem is this isn't  often possible because anyone that's not a momentum class can simply walk out after 3 curses.

        So what I'm presenting here is an idea to make another binding in Spiritlore viable to make that playstyle a possibility. Because it's a binding in Spiritlore, another offensive binding would have to be dropped, which should make this a relatively balanced change overall. Likely, a Shaman doing this wouldn't be able to relapse curses, or use vodun imbibe balanceless to complete locks. It's a tradeoff, not an unfair one to fully flesh out a play style that is already 90% finished.
      12. CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,978 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        If rebounding is worthless, and using shield does nothing, and you can't hinder because shaman can out hinder you or you are a class with little hinder, and you can't cure shamans as fast as they afflict you, and you can't out slow prep them, and you can't run away, how do you expect people to fight you?

        Do you also think that monks should have massive room hinder? Or bards? Or serpents? Or Blademasters?

        What makes shaman so special? You already have more options than every other class.

        WessuxXinnaIsaiah
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