Classleads - January 2015

Achimrst

Daeir said:

Half this thread is basically people assuming they know things about mechanics they very evidently do not know a thing about,

Par for the course with classleads, I guess. Loling at the Magi hinder argument.

Why you gotta be a dick Daeir, I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now.

Xith

Magi need just enough herb chase to get a transfix to stick. Anyone know if impurity ever gets faster than 1.8? --- I think destabilize oscillate + paralysis + transfix(x2) would probably land it. I also suggest scalded throat affect bayberry/hawthorn. --- It's cool that we now have to prep status/hindering effects though. Seems like the theme to keep in hindering. --- Plague's effect should be some of the ring of pestilence affs, instead of limb damage. Should hit with pestilence 3x on everyone in the room.

Ernam

Austere said:

Ernam said:

Getting rid of arrows into ret was probably one of the best changes we've seen in years.

yes, it means you can't just snipe magi who drop ret on you (which technically would never be possible if they used it intelligently),  but I see this as a good thing.  It means people have to actually fight in it (or run away) , making it the dynamic, interesting ability that it always should have been.  That was never really possible with full vibes + ret, but since that was finally fixed (at the same time), it is no longer suicidal to stay in ret and fight.

it also fixed a ton of meta problems like ret traps and ret/snipe wiping entire raid groups.

I had no idea retardation was such an issue. Someone should have said something before so it could have been changed a long time ago. Really need someone dedicated to pointing out these flaws to the general player base so we can rally behind them and cry nerf!

You're right, it was a really terrible idea.  I wish they'd stop implementing all of my terrible ideas like this, it's just plain rude.

[ edit: I'm not saying I'm the only person that suggested this change, but I do seem to be the only one that was publically, repeatedly called an idiot for it. ]

Ernam

Xith said:

Magi need just enough herb chase to get a transfix to stick. Anyone know if impurity ever gets faster than 1.8? --- I think destabilize oscillate + paralysis + transfix(x2) would probably land it. I also suggest scalded throat affect bayberry/hawthorn. --- It's cool that we now have to prep status/hindering effects though. Seems like the theme to keep in hindering. --- Plague's effect should be some of the ring of pestilence affs, instead of limb damage. Should hit with pestilence 3x on everyone in the room.

What if... magi could illusion things?

Aegoth

Illusions, meet serverside curing. It would like to say hello, and then completely ignore you for the rest of your life

Xith

Ernam said:

Xith said:

Magi need just enough herb chase to get a transfix to stick. Anyone know if impurity ever gets faster than 1.8? --- I think destabilize oscillate + paralysis + transfix(x2) would probably land it. I also suggest scalded throat affect bayberry/hawthorn. --- It's cool that we now have to prep status/hindering effects though. Seems like the theme to keep in hindering. --- Plague's effect should be some of the ring of pestilence affs, instead of limb damage. Should hit with pestilence 3x on everyone in the room.

What if... magi could illusion things?

With traits and diadem, illusion is 1.5, not enough to really affect herbs. Transfix is 2.2. So what if they could? I guess you could pretend to break a prepped limb and if your timing was perfect, illusion anorexia twice so they apply epidermal right as you're ready to transfix.

I had the idea of Destabilise Silence stripping and preventing mindseye for a short time. So that during that time blindness would be an affliction. Then they'd have to make themselves vulnerable to transfix, even though the  Magi would be too.

Xinna

Daeir said:

I feel like classleads aren't even needed anymore. Just sit Mizik down for an hour or two and he'll pretty much list everything that needs fixing and everybody will be better off for it.

I guess. If everyone changes to Mizik's class. (Have you -read- the guy's classleads? Shameless.)

Xinna

Antonius said:

Wessux said:

4. Scimitar's stats being changed. Increasing the damage. Forged 58/164/231, Level 1 62/168/236, level2 66/173/240, Level3 70/180/245
        4a. Axes are useless, they need a major damage boost to be useful again, but I don't know good numbers to put them at.

I'm not sure about increasing scimitar damage. The whole point is that Knights wouldn't/shouldn't have the same damage potential they had before just by leaning on doubleslash, and limb prep times feel satisfactory to me. Battleaxes also aren't totally useless, there's just no reason to have more than one. Razeslash with a battleaxe rather than a scimitar is a huge damage boost since weapon speed is irrelevant.

Paladin and Infernal both have avenues for killing that don't require damage, which admittedly leaves Runewarden in an awkward place. I'm not convinced a straight increase to doubleslash damage is going to solve those problems, though.

----

Here's what I'm currently considering:

Combination damage is far too high. The affliction potential and toolkit of Sword and Shield is fantastic, there's no justification for the damage potential being so high as well. I'm not sure if it's an issue with the base damage or strength scaling yet, but something needs to change there.

Not sure how I feel about multiple engage hits right now. Seems like it just means leaving the room is absolutely impossible once you have more than one or two knights engaging, unless you do it straight away and have enough health to tank two or three of them or are one of the two classes with evade. I may just leave this alone and see how I feel by next classlead round, though.

I still think falcons knocking off balance is a clunky and unnecessary mechanic. I've classleaded this before and they said they'd reevaluate after the Knight changes. We got rid of gremlin knocking off balance with the Occultist rework, seems like a good time to take it away from falcons, then re-purpose whichever Sentinel ent does it as part of their rework.

Repeatedly shielding is annoying as hell, but I have no new suggestions to fix this since the last time I raised a classlead about it.

Re: multiple engage hits in a row. I was thinking about suggesting that engage never kill a target, only bring them to 1 health (if it would have killed them). Unsure what others would think about this, but it seems silly when multiple engagers means you leave, you die, no matter what. At least if it was just 1 health, you'd have a chance of escape if they didn't properly followup.

Dalran

Xinna said:

Antonius said:

Wessux said:

4. Scimitar's stats being changed. Increasing the damage. Forged 58/164/231, Level 1 62/168/236, level2 66/173/240, Level3 70/180/245
        4a. Axes are useless, they need a major damage boost to be useful again, but I don't know good numbers to put them at.

I'm not sure about increasing scimitar damage. The whole point is that Knights wouldn't/shouldn't have the same damage potential they had before just by leaning on doubleslash, and limb prep times feel satisfactory to me. Battleaxes also aren't totally useless, there's just no reason to have more than one. Razeslash with a battleaxe rather than a scimitar is a huge damage boost since weapon speed is irrelevant.

Paladin and Infernal both have avenues for killing that don't require damage, which admittedly leaves Runewarden in an awkward place. I'm not convinced a straight increase to doubleslash damage is going to solve those problems, though.

----

Here's what I'm currently considering:

Combination damage is far too high. The affliction potential and toolkit of Sword and Shield is fantastic, there's no justification for the damage potential being so high as well. I'm not sure if it's an issue with the base damage or strength scaling yet, but something needs to change there.

Not sure how I feel about multiple engage hits right now. Seems like it just means leaving the room is absolutely impossible once you have more than one or two knights engaging, unless you do it straight away and have enough health to tank two or three of them or are one of the two classes with evade. I may just leave this alone and see how I feel by next classlead round, though.

I still think falcons knocking off balance is a clunky and unnecessary mechanic. I've classleaded this before and they said they'd reevaluate after the Knight changes. We got rid of gremlin knocking off balance with the Occultist rework, seems like a good time to take it away from falcons, then re-purpose whichever Sentinel ent does it as part of their rework.

Repeatedly shielding is annoying as hell, but I have no new suggestions to fix this since the last time I raised a classlead about it.

Re: multiple engage hits in a row. I was thinking about suggesting that engage never kill a target, only bring them to 1 health (if it would have killed them). Unsure what others would think about this, but it seems silly when multiple engagers means you leave, you die, no matter what. At least if it was just 1 health, you'd have a chance of escape if they didn't properly followup.

As far as I was aware engage was capped at 2 people on one target, maybe isaz change broke that somehow? Or I just don't pay enough attention I guess. It was before knight changes capped at 2 engages hitting when they leave

Makarios

Its not capped. Multiple engagers have diminishing returns on the damage, however.

Kaden

Xith said:

Ernam said:

Xith said:

Magi need just enough herb chase to get a transfix to stick. Anyone know if impurity ever gets faster than 1.8? --- I think destabilize oscillate + paralysis + transfix(x2) would probably land it. I also suggest scalded throat affect bayberry/hawthorn. --- It's cool that we now have to prep status/hindering effects though. Seems like the theme to keep in hindering. --- Plague's effect should be some of the ring of pestilence affs, instead of limb damage. Should hit with pestilence 3x on everyone in the room.

What if... magi could illusion things?

With traits and diadem, illusion is 1.5, not enough to really affect herbs. Transfix is 2.2. So what if they could? I guess you could pretend to break a prepped limb and if your timing was perfect, illusion anorexia twice so they apply epidermal right as you're ready to transfix.

I had the idea of Destabilise Silence stripping and preventing mindseye for a short time. So that during that time blindness would be an affliction. Then they'd have to make themselves vulnerable to transfix, even though the  Magi would be too.

Except no one I know of has ever cured blindness whenever I stripped mindseye.

Addama

Yeah, serverside counts deafness/blindness as defenses, so it'll never self-strip them.

Iocun

Why can't we finally stop all that classlead nonsense and leave everything as it is for all eternity? Stuff changing all the time makes it annoying to come back from dormancies

Everything's fine as it is. Quit complaining, you jerkheads.

Mizik

@Xinna in my defense, Blademaster was littered with holes that it didn't need to have. Now, with the exception of range or infiltration, it's in a great place. Except augment having no cap. That was all @Makarios. That all being said, I am a very practical man. If it affects me directly, it'll have my full focus. Ideas will flow. I do still pull my weight, though!

Kenway

Addama said:

Aepas said:

I really think with all these changes runewarden is in a really bad spot.

First off, the proc rate on hugalaz in 2h is way too low. I think it could safely be upped to at least a 33% chance without any real problems.

The isaz change was great, but it was quickly fixed to something that is near useless now. While I agree that stopping tumble entirely was a bit too much, I think we could easily let it add 3 seconds to tumble. This would give us much more flexibility.

Dagaz takes up a rune spot on the ground, so I think it should be able to be inked on the body and stay with jera/algiz/berkana. It only makes sense with what the other abilities do.

The Lagua change was in the right direction, but having to use it on someone that already has torso damage makes it useless. I mean disembowel already does what it does. Instead I say that it just gives a lvl 2 torso break if you dsb with it.

I mean, this is all I can think of for now, until these things get fixed, I'm just not sure runewarden will ever be in a good place again.

What the hell.  These are massive buffs.  Too much.

Hugalaz is fine.  I think the blunt weapon runes could use some variety (as mentioned before, only Hugalaz is useful for blunt weapons) but increasing the proc rate by that much will just bring back lolwardens, and we don't want that.

If you want to counter tumble, just trigger a Brazier on a tumble message.  Obviously you need to make sure you're on balance or about to regain balance for that.

Runewardens don't need a passive healing buff that follows them around, no, no, no.

Successful disembowel depends on having a torso break for all other classes, why would Runewardens need this?  Way too buffy.

Borran

I will miss the simplicity of these threads once multiclassing is implemented. At least now we have people agreeing on certain aspects- when everyone's got their back-up class as the OP one, nothing will ever change again. 

Iocun

Borran said:

I will miss the simplicity of these threads once multiclassing is implemented. At least now we have people agreeing on certain aspects- when everyone's got their back-up class as the OP one, nothing will ever change again. 

This makes no sense.

If we assume that there's an OP class and everyone has it as his "back-up class", then either people intend to solely fight as this class against others who will then probably also fight with this class, in which case there's no incentive to keep it "OP", as nothing can be OP compared to itself, or people actually also want to fight with their "primary class", in which case they won't want it to suck compared to said OP class that others may be still using against them.

The exact contrary of what you said makes way more sense: the more classes people have access to, the more it is in their interest to keep them balanced.

Ernam

I have to say I agree with @Borran.  About half of the playerbase chooses one of the well-known OP classes (typically the ones that scale dramatically with artefacts and focus on "lolz damage" or cookie cutter lock strategies they yoinked from combat logs.

Multiclassing is just going to allow everyone to keep that artied knight/monk in their pocket, but will still allow them to finally change to that really cool class they simply couldn't justifiy playing before (see: alchemist, shaman, bard, non-snipe-bot-serpent).

I can't even say I'm innocent of it.  Once you have purchased a level 3 stat set and four level 3 weapons, it's hard to move to a class that doesn't use stats or weapons.

Iocun

Ernam said:

Multiclassing is just going to allow everyone to keep that artied knight/monk in their pocket, but will still allow them to finally change to that really cool class they simply couldn't justifiy playing before (see: alchemist, shaman, bard, non-snipe-bot-serpent).

If they "couldn't justify" playing one of those other classes before, they had powerhouse classes before multiclass as well and no reason to nerf it...

If you only want to fight as an artied-out damage class, you can do that with or without multiclass. If you also want to fight as a more "exotic" class, you will want it to be able to stand up to the "OP classes". I really don't see how multiclass should change this in any way but positively, by resulting in more combatants getting one of those "really cool classes" and occasionally fighting as that as well.

Borran

I have multiple characters. Certain ones are combat oriented because their class is easy to do combat with {for me} (monks, knights, blademasters, occultists, serpents). Other ones are rp or merchant based because they take a lot more skill and training {for me} than I plan on putting into the game, are boring to fight as, or just cant feasibly compete with other classes (bards, apotatos, droods, sylvans, priests, jesters, etc). Everyone is going to have their own lists, but I think we'll see a lot more group fighter classes and loldmg classes in combat and the intricare win classes will be more for rp or style points once people have their pick before a fight. Typically Achaeans choose easy over style when it comes to combat. #stillcantwaitformulticlassing

Rangor

What exactly is a well known OP class these days?

Tesha

Whatever class Jhui's playing. Nerf Jhui!

Iocun

I still don't get the point. If Achaeans choose easy over style, they do so now already. If they do so now, those that do combat play easy combat classes and have no reason to call for nerfs to them.

Those who enjoy fighting as a "difficult" class now will still enjoy fighting as one post-autoclass.

P.S. I really don't think the difference in difficulty between classes is very pronounced these days.

Jhui

Rangor said:

What exactly is a well known OP class these days?

priest, easily.

Maybe pallie snb or dwc mostly because of peace/arc para for insta-soothing relief at no cost of affliction momentum for an already solid spec.

Probably shaman too cuz of .8 sec peace/para.  although limb dmg class might bone them good.

Achimrst

Jhui said:

Rangor said:

What exactly is a well known OP class these days?

priest, easily.

Maybe pallie snb or dwc mostly because of peace/arc para for insta-soothing relief at no cost of affliction momentum for an already solid spec.

Probably shaman too cuz of .8 sec peace/para.  although limb dmg class might bone them good.

I disagree, peace/para isn't as useful without blight.

Arador

While he may sound cynical, I do kind of get his point. I play Knight, I love Knight. But I do sometimes think about toying with a fun affliction class while not needing to alt and still having my artefacts. If I switch and it turns out I don't like it, I have to pay again and learn again to revert. With multiclass I can take a second class to toy around with and at anytime fall back to the class I know and love when I need to. Thus I'm more likely to take something new and interesting and as such get to know it well enough to give meaningful feedback on it. I can always just pop back to my trusty sword should I need to.

Iocun

I don't see how this supports the claim that we won't be able to agree on nerfs to certain classes anymore.

Arador

That's because I can't take Priest so my second class and whine when they want to nerf it

Iocun

Maybe we're just talking about different things or something. I still don't get it and probably never will, so let's just forget this and get back on topic!

Amranu

I agree with Mizik's classlead that peace in curses may be too powerful at the moment, that should probably be looked at.

I entirely disagree with the (non-submitted) classlead about coagulation. Shaman offence will be (and is, if peace isn't used) hinderable following a change to peace. Additinonally, eating ginseng for haemophilia in almost all cases allows for clot to heal all bleeding before haemophilia is re-applied, removing all momentum towards coagulate.