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Shop of Wonders Items for Younger Chars

JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
Simple, give newer players a chance to buy old Shop of Wonders items, coinciding with crown sales.  I realize this can be "gamed" to some degree (if you want to call it that), but only if you're going to build a new char and spend a billion credits on it anyway.  

So, I am an older player who did get a shot at all Mayan Crown items, and I love my platinum whistle, for example.  I would be very sad if I were a newer player and found out that I *might* be able to get one by slogging through trying to assemble one through pieces (when they're available), putting up ads, constantly asking on market, and ultimately probably paying far too much for what *is* a neat little perk, but even when I paid 7 crowns for mine, I thought that was a lot for a neat little doohickey.  I honestly hate the business model of Shop of Wonders anyway, but one of the worst things about it is that for new players, it does end up being "well, I'm a few centuries old, and I got mine"!  This would just give those new chars a shot at some of those neat little perks, but doesn't really interfere with the (in my opinion awful but oh well) Shop of Wonders business model overall.  
JeslynSilas
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Comments

  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2015
    It's the scarcity that makes them so enticing. If they're easy to obtain, might as well just make them regular artefacts that can be bought with regular credits.

    I too have a platinum whistle, but I went through the hassle of getting all the parts and possibly "paying too much"

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    KyttinTreyValariaCelusia
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    How exactly would this work? Characters less than X years old can buy certain otherwise-unavailable items from the Shop of Wonders? That seems like it would be almost entirely pointless, and almost exclusively benefit new alts (and the occasional actual newbie who drops $100 on the game immediately).
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2015
    I will just say that the scarcity is absolutely not enticing to me, and is in fact a huge turnoff.  I'm okay with it for auctions (which I never participate in) to watch people spend obscene amounts of credits.  I feel especially bad for those poor schmucks when the auction items aren't even something absolutely incredible - i.e. when IRE sold some items that were intended to be SoW items (and even some old SoW items) in auctions.  Anyway, Shop of Wonders items are a bit different in that they're a regular item if you "exist" when they come out - hence my  "well, I'm a few centuries old, and I got mine!" comment.   
    Silas
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sena, I was definitely thinking age based, and I'd say start a ticker for them whenever a crown sale starts, that would last through something like 2-3 crown sales (so quite a long time actually, which is the same sort of opportunity I had as someone who was around for all of the initial runs).  
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2015
    I'm not quite sure what you're asking for.

    Are you asking that discontinued items should be made available to newly created characters (and nobody else) during crown sales?

    That doesn't seem much fairer than the status quo, really. Why should someone who was around but unable to get an item when it was available (e.g. due to dormancy or not being able to afford it at the time) get no chance at getting the item again, but someone playing a new character will?

    And if you don't make that distinction, that basically just means that the discontinuation of items is rescinded to begin with.

    As much as it may suck not being able to get a particular item because it's no longer available, there are reasons for this. One reason is that some of the discontinued items were OP. The other is that only keeping items for sale for a while keeps them something special and valuable. 

    One problem with normal arties is that the longer they are available, the more people have them, and before long, they become part of the expected equipment of players (particularly combatants), leading to a status quo where nobody has something special again, but you have to pay good money to not be sub-par.

    If you like it or not, the incentive to buy arties is scarcity. If it was just about adding conveniences for everyone, it would be better to ask for the game mechanics to change so that the artie effects apply to everyone. Wanting Achaea to have arties implies wanting functionalities being limited to a selection of players.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    I'd also be ecstatic if they'd just scrap the whole thing and do what I though they were going to do in the first place - i.e. rotate stock, not totally discontinue it and back themselves into a corner by selling it in auctions...
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Right, I realize the sceptre wouldn't come back, for example.  As for fairness, if they're going to stick with this model in general, you're right, you can't make it totally "fair", but I do think that people who weren't even around should get a shot.  And if someone is buying Mayan Crown items on an alt, they're a total credit whore anyway.  
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    As for fairness, if they're going to stick with this model in general, you're right, you can't make it totally "fair".  
    But, as I mentioned, there would be a method to make it entirely fair: just give every player every artie. Anything else is unfair - and this unfairness is the very core principle of Achaean artefacts.
    Silas
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2015
    Iocun, I like you, and you're well respected here, but where are you going with this?  Anyway, for the record, I'd be totally okay with admin trying to make it as difficult at possible for alts to take part in this, but I have a feeling that really would be incredibly difficult to do.  
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2015
    So weird.  When I try to edit, it's already "as possible", but when I save it's still "at possible" in my post above.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2015
    Jules said:
    Anyway, for the record, I'd be totally okay with admin trying to make it as difficult at possible for alts to take part in this, but I have a feeling that really would be incredibly difficult to do.  
    That would make it even more meaningless. Not a lot of true newbies will be buying hundreds of credits immediately after starting.

    Edit: Just reread your previous post and realised you're suggesting it would last close to a RL year, so that does make it more likely that some newbies could take advantage of it.
    Jules
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    They'd definitely have some time.  Probably about a year or two.  Maybe even a bit more.  I threw out 2-3 MC sales when you asked, but I didn't want to try to specify the exact timeline because I really don't know the average player's buying behavior (but admin does).  
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    Iocun, I like you, and you're well respected here, but where are you going with this? 
    Just trying to point out that inequality is the basis of the entire idea behind artefacts and that the fact that newer players can't get everything that older players could isn't any more unfair than the fact that poor players can't get what rich players can. Both are simply means of creating an artificial "elite" through scarcity.
    TreySilasDaslin
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I promise that I'm trying to come up with something more substantial than "This idea is bad and you should feel bad". I'll give it another shot after work.

    Kresslack
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I remember being a dragon with class skills. New characters can't experience that, it's not fair; so let's implement a system where new characters can have a period of time where they can have dragon stats and class skills.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    Nim
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,301 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Klendathu said:
    I remember being a dragon with class skills. New characters can't experience that, it's not fair; so let's implement a system where new characters can have a period of time where they can have dragon stats and class skills.
    We should just remove the restrictions for getting dragon all together. Also, learning? That's so unbalanced. Everyone gets omnitransed as soon as they start!

    Seriously though, if you're new, getting SoW items should be the furthest thing from your mind, and I guarantee you for a large majority of people actually new to Achaea, it is. They're more concerned with avoiding waterboarding by the Kobolds, being able to eat on a regular basis, crossing a river without drowning, and so on and so forth.

    It sounds more like you want cheaper SoW prices, whether for your or an alt. There are plenty of 'neat' things that new players can obtain early on (helloooo, Blademaster swords? Seriously, Waking Krakens. I rest my case).

    I like that there are a set of items which are unique and have that "limited, one time offer" sort of stipulation, and that you can't outright buy them with credits.


    KlendathuCelusia
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    I see old dragon class as being more like the sceptre - my understanding is that both were changed or discontinued because they were seen as problematic.

    By definition, SoW items are just supposed to be nifty little perks, and while their run lasts, they're pretty much a regular item.  I knew some players might be against this, but I'm a little taken aback by the all or nothing view some of you are taking on the idea of fairness here.  Most of the time, you make things as fair as you can, given the situation, and I really do think it would be nice to provide newer players with the same shot at getting those nifty little perks that some of us had.  I'd be even happier if the current SoW business model were totally scrapped, but I know there's about zero chance of that.  

    As for my own interest, I have all of the Shop of Wonders items I could ever want, and it's extremely unlikely that I'd want or need them on alt (especially the ones that are currently unavailable, neat as they are).  Just to be crystal clear, I have exactly one alt, which languishes unplayed for the foreseeable future.  While I do intend to do something with her someday, it probably won't be soon, and I'd be incredibly easy to exclude from this idea because she's registered/credits purchased with all of the same information Jules is.
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,301 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    I see old dragon class as being more like the sceptre - my understanding is that both were changed or discontinued because they were seen as problematic.

    By definition, SoW items are just supposed to be nifty little perks, and while their run lasts, they're pretty much a regular item.  I knew some players might be against this, but I'm a little taken aback by the all or nothing view some of you are taking on the idea of fairness here.  Most of the time, you make things as fair as you can, given the situation, and I really do think it would be nice to provide newer players with the same shot at getting those nifty little perks that some of us had.  I'd be even happier if the current SoW business model were totally scrapped, but I know there's about zero chance of that.  

    As for my own interest, I have all of the Shop of Wonders items I could ever want, and it's extremely unlikely that I'd want or need them on alt (especially the ones that are currently unavailable, neat as they are).  Just to be crystal clear, I have exactly one alt, which languishes unplayed for the foreseeable future.  While I do intend to do something with her someday, it probably won't be soon, and I'd be incredibly easy to exclude from this idea because she's registered/credits purchased with all of the same information Jules is.
    What does fairness have to do with acquiring cool things? We had an auction in Mhaldor for some really neat things recently, and some of them went for over a million gold per. Your notion that everything needs to be made available to everyone because that would be 'fair' is probably what people don't like. Some things are specifically designed to not be immediately available for everyone, and SoW items have always fell into this category, and on the next tier up from that is auctions.

    It's almost like saying item customisations should be 10 credits per, because then 'new players' would be able to afford them. If you want nice things beyond what's readily available in the generic variety, you gotta save up and pay for them. This isn't the Oprah show where everyone gets a free artefact. We're talking some really interesting and unique items in the SoW.

    When I started out I saw some of the SoW items and thought, "Wow...I'd like to have something like that one day." One day being after I learned my skills and properly equipped myself. Guess what....I ended up getting it, just had to work a little for it.

    This notion that SoW items need to be cheaper or more easily available because it would be 'fair' really just sounds like it's for other reasons. 'Fair' is not a concept which has an inherent place when it comes to discussing high (and sometimes questionable) value items available for acquisition. I really don't see how it's -not- fair considering they could simply make all such items available only through quarterly auctions, in which only the person with the most gold (Eff you, @Cresil) gets the item. Instead, they're available to anyone who can pony up the Crowns for them, and that sounds pretty fair to me.


  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Exactly, I'm saying that newer players should get a chance to buy retired SoW items for the same amount of Crowns I paid (certainly not that they should get customisations for 10 credits, or that everyone in the game should be given free arties or any of the other ridiculous things some people are mentioning).  
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,301 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    Exactly, I'm saying that newer players should get a chance to buy retired SoW items for the same amount of Crowns I paid (certainly not that they should get customisations for 10 credits, or that everyone in the game should be given free arties or any of the other ridiculous things some people are mentioning).  



    ShirszaeCelusiaDaslin
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Kresslack, you're way too worried that some new player might get the same chance to buy a whistle or monocle as you and I did... I really don't get this mentality.  They're neat little perks, not some holy grail prestige item (at least they shouldn't be).  
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,301 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2015
    Jules said:
    Kresslack, you're way too worried that some new player might get the same chance to buy a whistle or monocle as you and I did... I really don't get this mentality.  They're neat little perks, not some holy grail prestige item (at least they shouldn't be).  
    Jules, you seem to willfully disregarding the whole 'these items will no longer be made available' part of how SoW works. They're not available to anyone after they're discontinued. Why would they become available to 'new' players exclusively?

    "Hey, you're new, so we're going to offer you and only other new people the opportunity to buy this nifty little whatchamacallit, for the low, low price of 3 Mayan Crowns. That's roughly 150 credits, kiddo. What a deal! What a steal! This is a one time offer available only now. Whaddya say, sport? Oh, you can't afford it because you spent all your gold on equipment and vials? Well that's too bad!"

    Right...'fair'.

    Edit: In hindsight, I should have just stole Trey's idea and went with: "This idea is bad and you should feel bad." Good luck.


  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    But why just newer players? What about those who started their characters when they couldn't get OOC credits, but can now? Those who were dormant? If they're made available again it should be for everyone, surely?

    I'd love a (insert desirable antique item of your choice) but you can't get them any more.  (Model T Ford?)

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Implement rare items I didn't get on release? Hell yeah! I will take my sceptre, traders satchel, and stocking now, please. I am more noobish than most of the novices that buy credits, anyway. Mentality should definitely be taken into account. Maybe even on a sliding scale for how well I can pretend to be a real novice. Health vial? What's that?
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    They'd be offered to new players because there's probably absolutely no hope of overhauling SoW business model as a whole, at least not anytime soon - especially after IRE sold some of those items in auctions.  Since then, they've sort of skirted the auction issue by selling them in pieces.  Also, if you read my posts, I really do want those newer players to have the sort of time we did to make those purchases.  By the time they really needed to make a decision, they'd probably have been playing for a good while.  It's not as though I only had a week or two, or even a month or two to decide I wanted a monocle, and whistle.  I had a lot longer than that.  In fact, I sort of took my sweet time buying both.  
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Kresslack said:
    Edit: In hindsight, I should have just stole Trey's idea and went with: "This idea is bad and you should feel bad." Good luck.
    I know!  It's like the nicest Trey's ever been to me.  And yes, we really see this very differently.    
  • AmarillysAmarillys Member Posts: 797 @ - Epic Achaean
    Can I get 1977 stocks in Apple, please?

    No, but for srsly, I would love a trader's satchel (or a hundred. Can I have a hundred?), a crafter's portfolio (or 5), that nifty obfuscated vial, DEFINITELY A SCEPTRE, and maybe a pretty birdy?

    But I can't. Why? It was a once in a lifetime deal and Ama was born too late for it. Does that suck? Yeah, a little. Is it unfair? No. Not really. No more than it's unfair I can't ever get any of the promo pets that were around, or the waterskin thing I heard about, or who knows what other promo item that happened at some point. Why? Because that's just how things work. What do I get? I get lesson packs that the older adventurers didn't have when they were tots. I get experienced people around to guide me that they didn't have. I get some amazing people to roleplay with. I get the rennaisance.  I get the new trade skills. I get motherfucking multi-class, damn it. Do they older people get this? Yes. But they have had to wait years and years for things they didn't even know they wanted. I have to wait months. AND I get a say in some of it. So eff you, trader satchels and pretty birdies. I'm too cool for you! Not having you? That's a sign I'm privileged enough to be dealing with the exact people who are around right now teaching me the exact things I have learned and getting the exact RPs I have found. And that? That's worth it.


    (Seriously, though, if someone could give me a time machine so I can get either those apple stocks and/or the trader's satchels, I would be happy.)



    ShirszaeCelusiaAziik
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    It's been mentioned several times, but the sceptre in particular would probably never be offered (and hasn't been offered in pieces, I don't think).  The sceptre was discontinued not just in hopes of creating "scarcity", but because it was considered too powerful to be widely available.  
    Tharvis
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    (arguably the Trader's Satchel wouldn't be either, as it's been perhaps rightly accused of wreaking havoc on the comms market)
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There're a ton of strawman arguments in this thread. It would be appropriate and ironic for me to say all y'all are arguing that @Jules is arguing that people who don't buy credits should be paid to play because they're providing content for paying players.

    This can probably be resolved by refluffing old SoW items with household-level effects. Those letter things are a great way of doing this, refluffing those on a regular basis would be great. Some things are a bit harder to refluff, but I think it'd be cool if there were a subset of SoW items (or maybe even just miscellaneous mostly-for-fun-or-minor-utility artefacts) that changed over time, but could also be customized for extra or something.

    I agree with the spirit of what @Jules wants, since honestly I prefer most SoW items over artefacts. Cool flavor effects with ideally minimal gameplay benefits? That's my kind of artefact. Making it a double hassle for me to actually get them? Ew.

    The implementation, on the other hand, is flawed for reasons people have already stated. Since there's a lot of repeating going on in this thread as well, I'll join in on the fun!

    How do you define a newbie? How do you balance this to achieve the desired amount of fairness? Why would a new player necessarily care about getting a SoW item, over more important things like lessons? Is it necessarily fair to players who might have bought it just for a perceived (albeit, unless I'm mistaken, not necessarily guaranteed) scarcity to suddenly reduce said scarcity? etc.
    Jules
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