Anyone ever get ignored for a RP IC problem?

Caoimhaen

This has happened to me twice personally, rather than role playing out not being friends anymore or something, the person gets angry and snubs you rather than trying  rp it properly or act like an adult. While I believe it is okay to IGNORE when  real harassment is happening or someone trolling you, if you have been long time friends icly and oocly, doesn't it seem a bit brain damaged? Has this happened to anyone personally? If so, do you feel you or your character lost out on the desired effect? Or perhaps other thoughts. I personally believe that IGNORE should be ledt for actual real problems rather than RP. I realize sine have a problem understanding what IC and OOC are, but still. I find this disturbing.

Shirszae

It has happened to me, yes. While I partly agree that it is stupid, I also think it is the person prerogative to ignore you if they are not enjoying your character, or if your character is only consistently making them feel upset. Some people actually do ignore temporarily while they get their emotions under control, too

Klendathu

I've done it before when the person I ignored was doing nothing but repeating the same insult over and over again to try to wind me (the player) up. After biting a couple of times, I just IGNOREd them for the minimum amount of time required.

Jovolo

In a way, I guess. I got ignored for roleplaying (not actually mechanically) stealing from someone. Like, literally evaded in, emoted fumbling through their pockets or something iirc and then tried to strike up some conversation (serpent really is great for instigating conflict of all kinds) and they told me to stop harassing them and ignored me. It wasn't ignorance on their part either, this is an experienced Achaean I'm referring to. 

That story really is just a prelude to my point, though. In my opinion, you should be able to appeal being ignored, because as I understand it, it's basically a means of preventing someone from actually harassing you. If they then attempt to bypass that ignore, that's what issues are for (or should be, anyway). I hate that it's used as a means of avoiding responsibility and repercussions in character, making the person impervious to anything that you could do. 

This wouldn't be as much of an issue if it was reserved to mundane things like ignoring a thief, but it can be used as an IC weapon too. I've experienced and heard of people using it to avoid their house and/or city members if they have an "IC" problem with them, etc. 

Tbh, the entire system of Ignore and Issuing could use a revision.

Shirszae

So what are you going to do after you appeal their ignore status on you? Force them to interact with you? That, more than anything, sounds like harassment. What really needs to happen is not allow people to escape IC consequences just because someone has someone else on their ignore list

Valkyre

Personally, I'm a guy who's 100% for consensual roleplaying (in both the fun and "fun" ways ha ha seewhatIdidthere), so I think (to a degree) it's up to every player what and how they want to RP with others. In that sense I don't really have that much of an issue with people having some mechanism that allows them to say "No, I'm not RPing with you", although I realize that such a stance really gets abused (even now) in the game. It's just the ideal that I prefer to arc towards, so having something like an IGNORE button is something I'd rather have and see abused than not have at all. 

So, to kind of answer some of the questions posed by the op, I don't think you're missing out on that much if people drop the IGNORE on you- if it was for stupid reasons, they're probably not someone you'd want to RP with anyways.  

The issue, for me, is that the mechanism for doing something benign like that is the same mechanism used to avoid harassment and other toxic behaviors, which kind of equates the two and makes it harder to revise the IGNORE command, imo. In an ideal world with thousands of development dollars and a full time staff at IRE's beck and command, I'd love to see two different commands for the each. Something like "IGNORE" for shutting down RP with someone (on a temporary, benign basis- for any reason) and something like "SNUB" for more serious "this-person-is-harassing-me/get-this-person-away" reasons.

I'll also wish for a unicorn to sing me lullabies while I sleep while I'm at it, but still.

Jovolo

That's semantically the same thing. 

By being ignored, you are now no longer able to seek them out for any reason unless it's absolutely unavoidable (think group fights of which they participate in of their own volition). 

However, as we agree on, this can be used as a means of avoiding a person who may have every right to seek you out - think retribution for a "crime", or even discussion as a house or city mate (in my original post). 

It can also be used as fuel for an issue. If you ignore someone and then get involved in a conflict with that person of which you can seek them out following it (think: they defile a shrine, as it's a recent example, and you go after them perhaps a minute after). They can now not only accuse you of 'targeting' or 'harassing' them, but they can also accuse you of 'bypassing ignore'. Admin can't keep track of every single reason for an ignore and whether or not it is valid, they can only keep track of whether or not that ignore status actually exists. 

Basically just because of that reason, I'd say that being able to overturn an ignore as opposed to changing the rules of ignore is a better solution.

My thoughts got a bit muddled up there because I'm at work but I think that gets the main point across...

Bluef

Caoimhaen said:

This has happened to me twice personally, rather than role playing out not being friends anymore or something, the person gets angry and snubs you rather than trying  rp it properly or act like an adult. While I believe it is okay to IGNORE when  real harassment is happening or someone trolling you, if you have been long time friends icly and oocly, doesn't it seem a bit brain damaged? Has this happened to anyone personally? If so, do you feel you or your character lost out on the desired effect? Or perhaps other thoughts. I personally believe that IGNORE should be ledt for actual real problems rather than RP. I realize sine have a problem understanding what IC and OOC are, but still. I find this disturbing.

I've been snubbed and ignored for really stupid reasons, including the following:

• Something I wrote on the forums
• Killing someone (complete with justified RP motivation)
• Killing a mob someone else was killing
• Roleplaying outcomes for a situation someone else initiated and/or is carrying forward with their own RP

Everyone I have ignored currently is because an Issue was filed and I was advised (or required) by the admins to Ignore them. The one exception is a particularly passive aggressive person who, for whatever reason, had been jumping into every conversation Bluef had on OOC clans and I just needed a break from their relentless snark and haranguing.

Three of the people I'm ignored by I don't think I even interacted with more than once for a few moments and in very minor ways. The interaction wasn't anything special or terribly controversial. One person ignored me without ever having interacted with Bluef at all.

I've never been ignored by anyone Bluef interacts with regularly though. It sounds to me like someone took whatever happened between you personally in a very extreme and perhaps OOC way (maybe their feelings were hurt).

Personally, I'd love to see Ignore removed all together from the game. In the real world, you can't just pretend someone doesn't exist when they're standing in the same room as you. You have to become personally responsible for managing your own reactions when their presence crosses yours. Like you said, be an adult. In cases of harassment, I'm all for stiffer penalties to make up for the loss of snub/ignore. Players who act that way, shouldn't be allowed to get away so easily with seriously abusive behavior. 

Caoimhaen

I disagree that ignore should be removed entirely. Rather, maybe make it like a lighter version of issue. Explain why you would like them ignored. And if the reason is viable, then grant snub/ignore. I dunno, I agree with you guys. I think using this tool should be used as sparingly as possible. The only person I have ignored are two people that repeatedly harassed me for no good reason. And 3 people being the same friend I knew on the internet who would not leave me alone after I started clearly we weren't friends anymore. It was a personal thing between this person and me irl. I agree people have their own prerogative to ignore you as shirszae started, but I feel if you dislike the rp, perhaps at least have the courtesy to speak to the person firstand see if they will leave you alone. 

Santar

You aren't entitled to have anyone speak with you. If someone doesn't want to interact with you, then respect their wishes. Don't continue harassing them until the point where they have to snub you. 

You're trying to preach about maturity here, but perhaps you should look at your own behavior and think about why the person snubbed you. Then, you can take your own advice, and act like an adult - Accept it and move on.

Bluef

If you don't want to interact with someone, then don't. Hitting the ignore button on anyone who pisses you off or upsets you just shows a lack of personal fortitude and accountability for your own (re)actions in my mind. That said, sometimes people do just need a break. Nothing wrong with using the time you're ignored to think about how you might have handled things differently.

Riashain

Forum ignore on the other hand....

Shirszae

Bluef said:

Personally, I'd love to see Ignore removed all together from the game. In the real world, you can't just pretend someone doesn't exist when they're standing in the same room as you. You have to become personally responsible for managing your own reactions when their presence crosses yours. Like you said, be an adult. In cases of harassment, I'm all for stiffer penalties to make up for the loss of snub/ignore. Players who act that way, shouldn't be allowed to get away so easily with seriously abusive behavior. 

This is a game played for fun, not the real world. If you are making someone feel miserable or you are being unpleasant, there is no reason why people should have to put up with you. Suggesting they should just because this is how real life work makes no sense whatsoever.

Also, suggesting that admins should revise every ignore decision is probably untenable, and would probably take too much time that would be best used elsewhere.

Bluef

Shirszae said:

Bluef said:

Personally, I'd love to see Ignore removed all together from the game. In the real world, you can't just pretend someone doesn't exist when they're standing in the same room as you. You have to become personally responsible for managing your own reactions when their presence crosses yours. Like you said, be an adult. In cases of harassment, I'm all for stiffer penalties to make up for the loss of snub/ignore. Players who act that way, shouldn't be allowed to get away so easily with seriously abusive behavior. 

This is a game played for fun, not the real world. If you are making someone feel miserable or you are being unpleasant, there is no reason why people should have to put up with you. Suggesting they should just because this is how real life work makes no sense whatsoever.

If for some reason someone in a game is making you miserable, you might want to reconsider whether a) you're taking the game too seriously or b) the rules are being followed and you have recourse other than ignore available to you. It's a game, yes. But that doesn't mean that realism or personal accountability shouldn't factor into how it's played. 

Riashain

Are we seriously going to start another bit of circular nonsense? That's like 5 threads in two days (stats provided by magic hat)

Ruth

I don't see why people can't RP being a stone wall instead of outright going to the IGNORE syntax. You aren't obligated to respond. Lrn2suffering.

Klendathu

Ruth said:

I don't see why people can't RP being a stone wall instead of outright going to the IGNORE syntax. You aren't obligated to respond. Lrn2suffering.

Chiam

there was once I went alone to defile a shrine and a certain 300+ year old someone showed up to witness and ran. I proceeded to tell her that their god has cowardly followers etc etc.

then I got IGNORED. 

Antonius

Jovolo said:

That's semantically the same thing. 

By being ignored, you are now no longer able to seek them out for any reason unless it's absolutely unavoidable (think group fights of which they participate in of their own volition). 

However, as we agree on, this can be used as a means of avoiding a person who may have every right to seek you out - think retribution for a "crime", or even discussion as a house or city mate (in my original post). 

It can also be used as fuel for an issue. If you ignore someone and then get involved in a conflict with that person of which you can seek them out following it (think: they defile a shrine, as it's a recent example, and you go after them perhaps a minute after). They can now not only accuse you of 'targeting' or 'harassing' them, but they can also accuse you of 'bypassing ignore'. Admin can't keep track of every single reason for an ignore and whether or not it is valid, they can only keep track of whether or not that ignore status actually exists. 

Basically just because of that reason, I'd say that being able to overturn an ignore as opposed to changing the rules of ignore is a better solution.

My thoughts got a bit muddled up there because I'm at work but I think that gets the main point across...

You have to provide a reason when you ignore somebody, so the admin certainly can keep track of every single reason for an ignore. Judging whether or not it's valid might be another thing, but I would hope when it comes to issues for bypassing ignore/harrassment they'd check as much as they possibly can that the initial ignore was for a sensible reason and that any claims made in said reason had some basis in reality.

Have you personally been told by the admin that you're not allowed to interact at all with somebody who has you on ignore? If somebody ignores me, then proceeds to defile a shrine of an Order I'm a member of, I'm going to kill them if I show up and get the writ, and I trust the admin to be sensible in the event that they filed an issue.

Also, you say "as we agree on", but who exactly has agreed that ignore is a means of totally avoiding consequences. Last I heard the official stance from the admin was the opposite.

Jovolo

I was talking to Shirszae there in regards to agreeing, which I assumed as a result of her saying that she feels ignoring somebody shouldn't make them irreproachable to in-character repercussion. 

I don't really understand your first paragraph. You're both implying that you disagree but then agree that it's more difficult to check for the actual validity of an ignore. As ignore can be a near-permanent affect, how far back can the admin actually go to determine the circumstances around the ignore and whether or not it's valid? Surely it's a much more sensible approach to just question the ignore (much like issuereply) when it's given out as opposed to months down the line when you're (potentially) being issued for harassment and bypassing ignore. 

I have been personally told by the admin that I could no longer approach the person that ignored me - bear in mind this was after one roleplayed theft attempt. I wouldn't consider that harassment. With one use of (IGNORE THIEF) they now can no longer be targeted at any time, for any reason by that thief. As was clarified to me by an administrator when I issued myself about it. 

Nim

Does that mean IGNORE is the new anti-theft?

Achimrst

I personally don't give a shit about ignore. Have fun fighting about it although I actually have to kind of agree with Jovolo. I think Ignore should send you a message or something so you KNOW you are ignored and can avoid that person.

Siduri

Nim said:

Does that mean IGNORE is the new anti-theft?

Nope. Had Dajio on ignore after he kept throwing homophobic slang at me, over and over, whenever I showed up to defend the city and the shrines against Mhaldorians. Later, I was hanging with Nila in Thera, had selfishness down (my bad, really), and when he showed up to steal from her, and hit selfishness, he turned to me and ran away with something.

I issued over this, and I lost, because being thieved on is apparently an IC repercussion of him being a thief and me hanging in the same place as his target.
I don't advise considering IGNORE as an antitheft technique.

--However--, my issue against him was upheld the time where he backstabbed me and tried to kill me while I was defiling a Sartan shrine, because he's not Mhaldorian/Sartai, and thus didn't count as IC repercussion.

Zengo

I am kind of new here and not sure how things work, but I have noticed some people ignoring issues that just don't really make sense to me. Your character is part of the world they live in, and sometimes that world doesn't revolve the way you want it to. Sure we all log on to have fun, but when serious issues are ignored, it may not be fun to those that are actually playing along with what is happening in the world and not ignoring it.

Just my opinion though. I log on to RP in the world created here, not to create my own little world.

Nim

@Zengo basically said my personal belief.

I do understand the value in having an IGNORE system, but the only use I would ever agree with is temporarily cooling your head for a bit.

If someone is an IC problem, deal with it ICly. If it's causing you OOC grief, let them know OOCly. If they can't respect that, then it's no longer an IC problem, and while the ignore system could work, issues could too.

The result of an issue doesn't even need to be a shrub, it could just be an order to lay off.

This would probably flood the issue system, though, and I'm pretty sure the admins don't want to deal with every petty little thing, so that's why the ignore system is actually there - to reduce admin overhead. That's basically its value, and given the number of issues PKers apparently regularly receive, it's probably saving them a lot of money too.

Jinsun

There's been a disheartening push by several to avoid RP or really any consequence for their character. Today I had a novice glare at me. I threatened to pluck his eyes out, you know mean, scarey RP. Immediately, YOU DON"T HAVE REASON TO ATTACK ME. -Sigh- Occies don't even have a cool remove your eyes move. I was just RPing kid, shit.

Antonius

Jovolo said:

I don't really understand your first paragraph. You're both implying that you disagree but then agree that it's more difficult to check for the actual validity of an ignore. As ignore can be a near-permanent affect, how far back can the admin actually go to determine the circumstances around the ignore and whether or not it's valid? Surely it's a much more sensible approach to just question the ignore (much like issuereply) when it's given out as opposed to months down the line when you're (potentially) being issued for harassment and bypassing ignore.

I disagreed with two parts of what you were saying, and (partially) agreed with one part of it.

"Admin can't keep track of every single reason for an ignore" - yes, they can. The system is specifically designed to allow them to do so.

"and whether or not it is valid" - partial agreement, this may or may not be feasible, depending on a whole number of factors.

"they can only keep track of whether or not that ignore status actually exists." - disagree, since they can also keep track of why the ignore was there in the first place.

As for it being a "much more sensible approach", I disagree again. I have no data, but I suspect the number of people who make use of the ignore function is considerably larger than the number of people who then go on to issue for harrassment/circumventing the ignore. I also suspect that the number of people who would issue in an attempt to have "frivolous" ignores overturned is greater than the number of people who would file issues for harrassment. In that case, it makes much more sense to keep things the same (i.e. not increase the number of issues filed), especially when there's no actual evidence that there's a serious problem (in terms of issue rulings with regard to ignore) currently.

Addama

I have Dajio on ignore for a single tell.

@Caoimhaen, you bring up a lot of good points, but at the end of the day, I have to ask myself "Am I going to have some quality RP interactions with Dajio now or in the future?" and the answer is no.  He seems interested in RP only so far as it feeds him kills or, short of that, logs of people incensed by him.

The suggestion that I shouldn't be allowed to ignore Dajio because I haven't played out our interactions to the nth iteration is silly because I already know there's absolutely nothing to be gained.

Is this an extreme example?  Perhaps, but like @Santar said, if somebody doesn't want to interact with you, you might examine why that is from your side (i.e., what are you doing to deserve the ignore?) instead of resting on the notion that they're doing something wrong.

E: Change all instances of Dajio to Jinsun because I'm too tired.

Jinsun

Addama said:

I have Dajio on ignore for a single tell.

@Caoimhaen, you bring up a lot of good points, but at the end of the day, I have to ask myself "Am I going to have some quality RP interactions with Dajio now or in the future?" and the answer is no.  He seems interested in RP only so far as it feeds him kills or, short of that, logs of people incensed by him.

The suggestion that I shouldn't be allowed to ignore Dajio because I haven't played out our interactions to the nth iteration is silly because I already know there's absolutely nothing to be gained.

Is this an extreme example?  Perhaps, but like @Santar said, if somebody doesn't want to interact with you, you might examine why that is from your side (i.e., what are you doing to deserve the ignore?) instead of resting on the notion that they're doing something wrong.

well I mean you did ignore me for asking you to pay out on a book. That was a little weird  

Addama

Oh, that's funny, I guess it was you and not Dajio. 

I just woke up and was like "Jinsun, he's the reasonable one, Dajio, he's the evil one.  Must've been Dajio."

Anyway.  You said "Pay up."  I've never interacted with you before.  You waited two seconds after the game ended.  You're literally the first and last person to ever do that.  Do you think I was going to forget to declare a winner?  No.  You just wanted to rub it in that you bet on Santar.  Good job, you bet on the guy that literally everybody else bet on.

How do I RP that?  By not declaring the book?  I can be issued for that.  Or by declaring somebody else to rob you of your winnings?  That's a shrubbable offense.  It's not like I can hire on you for being a dick.  No, my only option was to give you your money, and you still had to be a cock about it.

You often wonder aloud why people assume you're an insensitive ass-clown, and this is why.

Jinsun

Addama said:

Oh, that's funny, I guess it was you and not Dajio. 

I just woke up and was like "Jinsun, he's the reasonable one, Dajio, he's the evil one.  Must've been Dajio."

Anyway.  You said "Pay up."  I've never interacted with you before.  You waited two seconds after the game ended.  You're literally the first and last person to ever do that.  Do you think I was going to forget to declare a winner?  No.  You just wanted to rub it in that you bet on Santar.  Good job, you bet on the guy that literally everybody else bet on.

How do I RP that?  By not declaring the book?  I can be issued for that.  Or by declaring somebody else to rob you of your winnings?  That's a shrubbable offense.  It's not like I can hire on you for being a dick.  No, my only option was to give you your money, and you still had to be a cock about it.

You often wonder aloud why people assume you're an insensitive ass-clown, and this is why.

All I said was Pay up, heh. I'm sorry that that destroyed your ego?