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Best class without arties.

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  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Mizik said:
    Xinna said:

    It would be better if slickness couldn't be cured by bloodroot.


    Would it? Does the following kelp to cure asthma come in time?

    What about monkshood?

    Hellsight/Arc Monkshood? Hellsight always gives Gecko instantly.

    That's 3 valerian smokes, under kalmia, followed by a killing Damnation.


    Explain how you stick asthma for long enough against a person with fitness, who uses fitness as they should.

    When I first read the changes, I thought it'd be a lot easier, then I thought more on it. If no asthma, it's easy to just eat bloodroot for slickness and smoke off hellsight. If monkshood is added, you're slowing down the affliction speed by a lot, so it's still easy to keep up.

    The key is still the asthma. Without it, I really don't think you get far, and stopping fitness isn't easy as paladin. Most people just don't use it against damnation setups.

    There could be something I haven't thought of, but the logs I've seen so far have just been against poor curing.

  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,268 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh. I deleted all your fitness talk. Fitness ruins lives. 
    image
    JhuiAntonius
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Wait? Is single target arc faster than multi room arc? Because if not Damnation is like a second or less before that next focus comes off.. arc was like 4 secondish with hellsight coming in right at 2 seconds (with diadem) but I quit Paladin before single target arc came out.

  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Single-target is faster, yes.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Assuming Arc is under hellsights equib.. and not counting in tree rebounding shurgging fitness or any other kind of passive curing.. that gives a..

    67% Chance to not cure asthma on the first eat.
    67% Chance to not focus Anorexia.
    67% Chance to not eat Asthma (if they did focus Anorexia)
    and 50% Chance to not smoke hellsight if they ate Asthma above

    Which is actually pretty good..

    And Fitness.. Completely changes the entire setup (at least the one im using in theory)

    but with that setup.. it's going to end up being half the chance of someone with out fitness.

    Of course discounting rebounding entirely. 

    and that's pure numbers assuming 0 lag in curing or anything else. always different variables to go through there..

    All and all about a 20% chance for it to work without fail on someone without fitness/passive curing

    And about 10%  chance for it to work on someone with fitness. no fail. 

    Not counting Passive curing also.. which might actually be worse than fitness depending on when it hits.

    And just for the record. touching shield should bypass all of that completely. considering your not going to be able to prone them with out losing massive momentum. and if you break legs before you start your going to still not have enough time to finish before they stand.

    However breaking arms on the kelp stack would work to stop that.. assuming they don't shield on the first armbreak (Assuming no running away due to piety holding them in place for fitness as well.. (without fitness should be paralyzed.)

    Oh and this is all assuming a 1.7 dsl (What mine was at with 241 average speed as pally)

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Targetted arc is about 2.5 seconds, if I recall correctly. Probably lines up well with unartied hellsight, but is slower than hellsight with a diadem.
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Best unartied classes IMO:

    Apostate, Jester, Shaman, Sentinel
    JovoloAustereBorran
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2014
    Not sure if you guys want to... but would you consider expanding the discussion to "best class without arties for RP OR combat?" Not what this is now, though.

    I know many of the good arties are geared towards combat advantage, but I've met my share of people that spend a bunch on role-playing related stuff, (like making flowers permanent) but not on combat. And, some classes, at least in my experience, have a huge number of RP-heavy folks even though the class can be good in combat.

    Bard comes readily to mind; I know a ton of Bards that don't fight but thrive on performance. That was actually my first experience on Achaea in 2009, I was lost in Shallam and Kitri (Cyrenian bard) was traveling around and took me to some inn and my first Achaea RP experience was watching her dance performance where she enemied the whole audience and made them hop to her Reel while she herself was prancing around like a deer and singing. I was like -- this is very different from Maple Story! Much later she later negotiated to go to Mhaldor to perform at the Worm and Grub, and she apparently did so well she was allowed to leave Mhaldor alive. You gotta admit, not too many ways for even the most artied person from Cyrene to leave Mhaldor alive if it's just the one of them! If there were any arties involved, I don't know about it.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There are RP arties? I'm confused. What is the question?
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xith said:
    There are RP arties? I'm confused. What is the question?
    Sentient artefact pets and staff of illusion (depending on class) are two that come to mind with a lot of roleplay potential.
    TreyMelodie
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    To be honest, Occultist doesn't really require Arties to get midbie kills. Talisman sort of gives you good topend. My first like 200 unravels I didn't own a torc (also never bought a dirk ). To be honest now I don't use a torc if I have a good devil mark up. (Gets wasted on hangedman or aeon sometimes) that double moon humbug on Cadmus with rixil up is freaknasty. (Four aff balance with an insanely slow focus balance.) combined with that moon and humbug now smart afflict, torc is a backup plan and a convenience now. I don't think @Mizik‌  had a torc as occie unless he traded it in. I keep waiting for the day anyone has the guts to seriously take it up before they have Arties but a lot of them see torc in my scripts and say I can't do it . /wrists 

     anywho totally agree apostate, sentinel, alchemist, infernal. These classes have very good reliable kill methods and a ton of options.
    image
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I wouldn't mind fighting without torc as occie at all. I'd be more concerned about diadem/int arties. Having not played around with it, I don't know what the speed difference is between unartied and artied up.
    Dalran
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xinna said:
    I wouldn't mind fighting without torc as occie at all. I'd be more concerned about diadem/int arties. Having not played around with it, I don't know what the speed difference is between unartied and artied up.
    Int/speed is definitely a concern. I would suggest moderate INT spec with a house icon. The only real hit you take is on Con. There's obviously a difference in speed due to diadem, but I still see it being doable. I mean with 17 Int and diadem I can still stack to a kill against higher tier while they one hit and I'm forced to resummon blood leech. I think it'd be totally good for midrange fights without Arties.
    image
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2014

    OP:  I would say Apostate, Infernal, or Runewarden (particularly before the forging change).  They're all insanely tanky, do not in any way rely on artefact weapons*, and have plenty of escape/mobility built in.

    Infernal has some of the most broken mechanics in the game, both offensively and defensively, to the extent that artefacts don't even impact your offense, and defensive artefacts are more or less unecessary thanks to the insane damage mitigation inherent in fullplate, putrefaction, vigour, etc.  They also have fitness, which is arguably the best ability in the game for preventing venomlocks.

    Apostate has the same insane defense, plus passive curing, and an offense that is in no meaningful way improved by artefacts (because it'd be really ridiculous if it were).  Free lifevision, a "poof" ability that bypasses all hindrance, gravehands, and the "free win button" known as Catharsis, which can be mindlessly spammed in group combat to great success.

    Runewarden requires some skill to be good without gauntlets, but that's a given when getting into combat without artefacts.  With good forged rapiers (again, pre-nerf), they can be insanely dangerous, particularly if you're good with riftlocks and the various methods of sneaking torso breaks.  They're also an all-around amazing class, with access to falcons, archery, fast-travel (raido), thurisaz, walls, totems, wunjo/nairat, swiftmount, blocking, barge, and so on - all of which are insanely powerful and valuable to solo and group combat, without any artefacts.  Later down the road, some guantlets will only make you even more powerful, as will the new artefact weapons.

    (* damage burst runewarden does benefit from damage arties, but isn't going to kill anyone with any skill, and can honestly be done just fine without artefacts, with the right race/spec and weapon choice).
    Mizik
  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,268 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jinsun said:
    To be honest, Occultist doesn't really require Arties to get midbie kills. Talisman sort of gives you good topend. My first like 200 unravels I didn't own a torc (also never bought a dirk ). To be honest now I don't use a torc if I have a good devil mark up. (Gets wasted on hangedman or aeon sometimes) that double moon humbug on Cadmus with rixil up is freaknasty. (Four aff balance with an insanely slow focus balance.) combined with that moon and humbug now smart afflict, torc is a backup plan and a convenience now. I don't think @Mizik‌  had a torc as occie unless he traded it in. I keep waiting for the day anyone has the guts to seriously take it up before they have Arties but a lot of them see torc in my scripts and say I can't do it . /wrists 

     anywho totally agree apostate, sentinel, alchemist, infernal. These classes have very good reliable kill methods and a ton of options.
    Nah, I had a Torc.

    Thing was so hot.
    image
    Jinsun
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Torcs are dumb.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2014

    Torc probably shouldn't exist, but I'm not sure what there are more of... offensive tactics that are slightly OP that require a torc, or slightly OP things that are only countered using them.

    Then there is magi combat, in which whoever owns a torc (or who doesn't) pretty much automatically determines who wins the fight.  It's pretty much the buckawns amulet of Retardation, IMO.

  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Must the torc be wielded? 

  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Arador said:
    Must the torc be wielded? 

    Nope, just worn.

  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    What exactly makes torcs so broken in retardation? Can't a lot of classes already afflict stupidity or paralysis anyway?
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah I brought it up in the changes, after facing a certain magi who has a torc and that was the basis of her strategy. It's terrific for dry retardation, sure. But it contributes too much to the class, which prevents actual class balance from being okay. 
    In fact, I don't think there is a worse artefact that I can think of, possible exception being earrings or maybe ring of flying.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • AmarillysAmarillys Member Posts: 797 @ - Epic Achaean
    Ok, pretty sure I don't wanna ask but... why is a ring if flying a bad artefact?



  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, NorwayMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ring of flying one of my fav arties. Superfast fly is so handy in lots of situations.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    KresslackWessuxMelodieXith
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Since tentacle was sped up, RoF is not that bad anymore. 

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,670 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    Xith said:
    There are RP arties? I'm confused. What is the question?
    Sentient artefact pets and staff of illusion (depending on class) are two that come to mind with a lot of roleplay potential.
    Ivory dice, drinking horn, cigar box, signet ring & taper of eternity.


  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    Antonius said:
    They can, but with a lot more restrictions than the torc. Torc can be used prone, with broken arms and legs, paralysed, goes through rebounding, shield and curseward, etc.
    Wow. I had no idea it was so unrestricted. I guess that makes sense given the abilities it mimics, but it seems like kind of an oversight wrt magi.
    Hasar
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2015

    Yeah, that's why it gets so silly in retardation.  Torc + vibes is pretty much a total washout, unless the target (non-magi) also has a torc (or is a monk), in which case they pretty much sit there spamming mind paralyze/stupidity on each other until either a tumble succeeds or you fall asleep and subsequently get beheaded.

    Some of the newer magi pretty much base their entire strategy around forcing this stalemate, and simply repeating it ad nauseam until the RNG results in a victory.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Good thing retardation + passive vibes is no longer a thing, then.
    Xith
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Antonius said:
    Good thing retardation + passive vibes is no longer a thing, then.

    Hehe, a bittersweet memory is exactly what old vibes should be.

    It remains to be seen if Aeon + full vibes is going to be just as powerful, as my understanding is that as soon as retardation vibe is destabilised into Aeon affliction for everyone in the room, that at that moment, the rest of the vibes instantly come right back into full effect.

    So instead of retardation + full vibes, you end up with:

    retardation -> Everyone in the room has Aeon + full vibes

    I'm a bit confused at this stage, however, because I don't understand how aeon is supposed to be useful at all to magi combat (as it has no way of slow locking, or even sticking asthma, aside from maybe TF jabs?).  I am assuming that the Aeon feature was added in order to be used for something specific, but I'm at a loss as to what that is, so far.

    I'm tentatively happy to see retardation changes, but it's not hard to see this as a pretty massive upgrade, if used correctly.  For example:

    1. Full vibes
    2. embed retardation: (drop insomnia at any point before or after embedding ret)
    3. [optional] destabilise lullaby, drops metawake, can't re-def it for [unknown] seconds.
    4. mind paralyze or golem impurity paralysis (or just anticipate them being off herb balance from something else)
    5. golem impurity asthma (and optionally, also anorexia and/or stupidity)

      (this is where it gets good)

    6. destabilise retardation, ~1 second later, smoke elm (resolves 1 second after Aeon, curing Aeon before you even recover balance from destabilise
    7. Your opponent now has Aeon and asthma, you do not, and they're also in full vibes.
    8. golem hypnotise/delph jab/hourglass for a aeon+sleep lock (aka, victory)

    Pretty much the same thing as it used to be, but with some drawbacks and some serious improvements.

    The big drawback is that it all hinges on asthma now, which again, is pretty hard to stick for long as a magi.

    The big improvements are that the only counter to retardation/delph (metawake) is effectively gone ( but not sure for how long yet), and that the primary downside to retardation (that it actually affects the magi as well as their target) can be totally avoided, by instantly curing aeon, leaving the opponent still essentially in retardation, while the magi isn't, and is free to attack normally.


    However, asthma doesn't need to stick for long.  The entire process from destabilising retardation to having them in a one-sided metawake-proof aeon + sleep lock can take as little as whatever the balance cost of destabilise.

    That means that if the balance of destabilise is 2.5 seconds, the target would only have a 2.5 second window to eat asthma and smoke elm, which would require two full commands through aeon, plus latency.  With a 100ms ping, you'd have about 0.3 seconds of wiggle room, and using serverside, you'd be asleep before 'smoke elm' resolved even if you started 'eat asthma' instantly.

    This does assume a 2.5 second balance on destabilise though, which may be a bit longer (or could actually be shorter), and it also assumes that you don't cure asthma with fitness or a passive cure proc in the decently sized window (about 3-4 seconds) that still leaves enough time for elm, before you're visiting the dreamworld.



    I'm really interested in the numbers on some of this stuff, and would love some confirmation that Golem abilities all require and use full balance, such that they can't be combined with any other attacks (which would be a pretty serious design mistake).


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