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Best class without arties.

JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
I was talking to someone a while ago about this and I'm interested to hear other people's opinions on it. A lot has changed in Achaea combat over the past couple of years and this list will have also changed a lot, so what do people think nowadays? Top 3 or an entire list, whatever.

My top three classes for fighting without arties are probably: Apostate, Priest, Serpent. No order there as I haven't given it enough thought atm, but those undoubtedly are the greatest three just imo. Will give more detail later as currently on work break and probably shouldn't be typing out essays on the achaean forums.

What do you think? 
KadinDjiXith
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Comments

  • KadinKadin Member Posts: 123 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    After my (although very limited) experience with Shaman I would say it has a lot going for it. With an insane affliction rate and being able to keep swiftcurse up without losing much momentum it definitely has a lot of potential. Although ideally you would want spirit bindings that increase your affliction rate to make for faster locks there are also a lot of survivability spirits you can attune to. Marak gives +1 con and there are also options for health and mana regen. Not to mention the perks of vodun. Instant continent travels that act as old earrings. The ability to spy and effectively track people who are veiled with very few fashions. The hunting seems to lack a bit compared to other classes (I believe)... I can't really judge the hunting too well as I went with a full con build for survivability and only have 12 int. I would also say a smart magi who has solid offense in retardation also has to be in the conversation. 
  • RomRom Member Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Came to say that Sentinel is quite good, and I'll still post to note that a top tier forged weapon for them seems exceptionally easier to acquire than for knights. (We have literally been giving away 248s.)
    Huge amounts of prone defense and anti-lock mechanics make it pretty forgiving defensively. I fought as one for a very long time with less than 4k health (and now sit at ~4600 with 12 con, kind of low by todays standards) and was generally fine due to vitality, noose, and afflictions as mentioned above. Locks have gotten progressively tougher but are still doable, and you will likely have to rely on them against most combatants due to the disparity between artied and unartied Sentinel damage.

    Then, of course, ridiculous Meta utility to have a smooth time in between that combat. B)

    Edit: I'd do maybe Apostate/Shaman/Sentinel, but haven't seen a Shaman in a while so it's just speculation on that point. Unartied Apostate just has a ton going for it in terms of mitigating handicap and has been utilized well by a few people. Unsure about Shaman without wunjo/nairat over gular, but I could see it doing quite well.
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  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd agree with your list if I didn't exclude classes that relied on weaponry to achieve their pinnacle ability sans artefacts. Just hate the mechanic. Finite quantity of decent rapiers, the better weapons are rare and you either need to befriend prolific forgers or have hundreds of credits to spend on them. 

    Would probably put Sentinel as joint third in my list though, if the 242's+ aren't that difficult to forge.
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Isn't Apostate kind of expensive? If this is a thread about non-artied classes, it's worth mentioning that Apostate requires you to trans all three skills. 
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think he means artied as in, requiring artefacts.

    Sentinels are good noob killers. They don't have a lot of dynamic to their offense (Achaea doesn't allow for much dynamically with the majority of it's classes so that's an argument against myself a little bit), which means that the offense is predictable and should be easy to prevent.

    Apostate was literally the only class for a while that allowed you to set someone up for one way of killing them but always have several other options on the backburner, so you can move quickly from mana draining to afflictions, or afflictions to mana draining. A lot more classes have had their scope increased lately, but I would still rather be apostate over the majority of them.

    Tirac has surprised me a lot with runewarden tactics, but i hate forging and capitalist mechanics.

    -

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  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,169 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Apostate is solid. So is Jester.

    Maybe style plays into choice. Also assuming general fight conditions. Once you start drawing scenarios like vs Dragonform, my top 3 go out the window, replaced by the 2 above + Priest.

    I tried to make my list more like "helped least by artefacts".
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    MishgulJovoloSyri
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2014

    Bard. It's pretty much unaffected by arties. Can con spec for the extra tankiness, unlike serpent, which is squish squish without arties, and doesn't even really require a particularly great rapier. This is only for 1v1, though. Bard in group is what caused me to become an artiewhore. :(

    Jester. Though, only if you're really good. Tricky class, especially without arties, since you just go squish squish if you make a mistake.

    Shaman. Another class that's hardly boosted by artefacts at all, and great unartied.

    All of these are focused on 1v1, though. They're also largely advanced coding classes, which is a turn off for many. For group unartied, I'd say apostate first hands down, and serpent.

  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I always heard Magi were great without arties, is that total lies?
    Xith
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Nope. Magi is great unartied too! Requires weaponry, though, imo. Lots of good unartied classes.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,296 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd say it's a fair tie between Runewarden and Apostate imo, as previously mentioned by more than a few people.

    Runie definitely good and ridiculously potent with very little investment. Tritrans and some forging rng alone will make you some of the beefiest, hardest hitting dudes around. Doesn't require much coding to set up either.

    Apostate also very potent at living and being useful in a variety of roles and circumstances. Good support play opportunities as well. Similarly, you can get away with aliasing everything and manually handling their offense, since it's straightforward and branches off seamlessly into two different paths. Bashing sucks a bit though.
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    When you consider questions like this, it's important to apply the current metagame to the situation.  In this case, massive amounts of loldamage coming from all sides.  This makes squishy classes with strong offenses that don't actively hinder the opponent's offense much, much less desirable, even in 1v1.
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  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Even if you're an unartied Runewarden though, you still need to invest in 231 rapiers, which could be cheaper than trans Forging.  Though after Knight changes this will be irrelevant as you'll just tri-trans like everybody else.
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  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think magi is one of the best unartied classes for 1 vs 1. If you can understand the concept behind doing whatever it takes to keep your opponent in your vibes in retardation along with some RNG, you're solid. Slow-paced and easy-to-grasp offense that doesn't require arties.

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  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2014
    One of the best is probably a bit of a misnomer. I think Apostate, all of the knight classes, Priest, Jester, Shaman and Sentinel are all better than it which would leave it closer to middle of the table. I never fought Terra as a Magi, but I have a positive record against all Magi I fought including Hasar, and when I was a Magi it never felt all that powerful because smart use of sigils and smart use of tumble, cure, burst-cure when out of ret x10 was enough to survive as the damage was a non-issue.

    That's not to say it isn't good, but I'd rate its group combat higher than its 1v1, of which is probably only slightly above "par". Imo, of course.
    Exelethril
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Magi is not that great unartied, particularly against fighters who actually know what they're doing.  Without the looming threat of crazy damage bursts, torc paralysis/stupidity, or artefact bows delivering delphinium, I don't think I'd consider a magi anything other than a meat shield.

    Austere
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,341 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ernam said:
    Magi is not that great unartied, particularly against fighters who actually know what they're doing.  Without the looming threat of crazy damage bursts, torc paralysis/stupidity, or artefact bows delivering delphinium, I don't think I'd consider a magi anything other than a meat shield.

    Artied magi is ridiculous,  but unartied is pretty meh.  You have to pray they have never seen retardation before,  because hands off on disrupt and tumble when able will sooner or later kill all vibes. 
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    When I was unartied magi, everyone was saying I was OP playing ez mode and couldn't win as any other class (yeah, lol, have heard that before, right?). I do think people underestimate it a bit, because it is rare, but it is very good if played properly.

    That being said, most classes are, so it's not necessarily "the best," no. Though, "best" is also quite subjective, as different classes are good at different things. Magi is a pro jump class, for example.

    Dalran
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reasons they can be a candidate:
    - Magi: Retardation - negates enemy arties. at worst the opponent has a Torc but doesn't really beat your vibes
    - Apostate: You can trans Evileye and get part of Apostasy, easily least lesson investment class. Only need Necro for extra defense if you're not high enough level. Arties don't defend against locks

    - Shaman, Serpent, Alchemist, for lock reasons.

    I'd like to say Jester, but the player makes that class. Can't advise anyone to go in unartied as a jester unless you already know how to gtfo.
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    Dalran
  • SyriSyri Member Posts: 48 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2014
    Xith said:
    Can't advise anyone to go in unartied as a jester unless you already know how to gtfo.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Syntax: RUNAWAY <direction> [distance] (between 1 and 11 rooms)

    Details:

    While you are riding your inflatable giraffe, you may beat a hasty retreat, going up to 10 rooms in a straight line.

     -------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    AradorZengoBorran
  • KadinKadin Member Posts: 123 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Syri said:
    Xith said:
    Can't advise anyone to go in unartied as a jester unless you already know how to gtfo.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Syntax: RUNAWAY <direction> [distance] (between 1 and 11 rooms)

    Details:

    While you are riding your inflatable giraffe, you may beat a hasty retreat, going up to 10 rooms in a straight line.

     -------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    So either you're fighting without mass here or you have a shackle. I'd recommend the shackle, but then you wouldn't be unartied. Meh.
    Syri
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Damnation sucks. and requires artifacts to do on 90% of the player base. even with out them knowing it's coming other wise Would rate Paladin/Runewarden on the top tier. also Bm doesn't actually need a band to achieve brokenstar and has one of the better setups of people not knowing what's coming.

    For 1v1.
    Blademaster
    Paladin=Runewarden (depends on situation)

    For anything more than 1v1
    Paladin (Unless other rite user is present)
    Runewarden (Good for totems, other wise just higher dps than Paladin)
    (other class)

  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    using mass in a 1 v 1 is so passe. 

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Xith
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Actually on second thought Damnation may be more possible with the hellsight/slickness being the same smokeable. But I doubt doing it without a talisman is much better until knight changes where if I remember correctly it's over powered.

    Also on second thought Why not just list all the classes it's ups and downs.
    Just to add SoA helps alot of with most classes.

    Alchemist -Doesn't need any arties anyways?

    Apostate - Same as above

    Bard - Requires a weapon

    Blademaster - Doesn't require anything (people will clouds to avoid brokenstar alot)

    Druid - Is this even a class

    Infernal - Requires two weapons

    Jester - Loses some tricks but worst comes to worst puppet bleed em out.

    Magi - I'd count magi out. although Retard can easily counter balance a need for artifacts 
    torc helps alot

    Monk -The damage a monk does without artifacts is highly lacking imo and removes alot of the strategies that monks can take advantage of if your opponent watches torso anyways. 

    Occultist - I've never fought an occultist who didn't use at least a mind torc.

    Paladin- Although Damnation was changed im unsure on it being possible on anyone with out a diadem. other wise same as other knights

    Priest- With out the artifact Mace loses the insane damage option and limits the non sap sap sap route (which imo is more dangerous)

    Runewarden - Same as other knights (except they turn normal rapiers into god mode rapiers)

    Sentinel - Likely just needs a godly forged axe

    Serpent - With out being Artied at all your at most going to have 16 dex, so not speed capped. Slowing down serpent could hurt. but should still be playable.

    Shaman -Not sure with the changes.

    Sylvan- Half the game doesn't even understand how to avoid dying to heartseed. Hell I understand how to avoid dying to heartseed and I still don't know how to code it in.

    ----
    With all that said. I'm going to count out weaponry classes in my personal list because it's basically an artifact atm for a knight (good rapiers going for hundreds of credits)

    Blademaster is still my top pick for 1v1. Again, you do not need a band for brokenstar. and Blademaster is one of the most defensive powerhouse classes in the game (with no arties needed) The biggest problem with playing Blademaster without a band is figuring out break points. On the other hand, Blademaster might as well give up fighting dodgey classes as it stands. by the time you break past dodge/parry limbs are resetting

    Priest for second place. You can't escape them. they can sit and sap your mana and mostly ignore what your doing. They can diagnose everytime you hit them. not to mention second best armor in the game. along with plenty of other abilities to keep them alive. I would have rated Priest higher than bm if not for evade prone parry and transmutes.

    Apostate for Third It's priest with out all the healing abilities. What Apostate loses in healing abilities it makes up for in afflicting. This class has many different options to kill without the need for artifacts at all to use them.

    Honorable mentions.
    Paladin using just Delos shop bastard sword and rites I've cleaved many a people who didn't know it was coming.

    Shaman/Jester. Although i've not seen Shamans new abilities Vodun/Puppetry seems pretty broke in retrospec, survive for five minutes of fashioning then release hell.

    Sylvan, Didn't get rated higher because im likely sure that if you can avoid heartseed with out the artifacts they lack the damage to abuse you being unable to escape.

    Alchemist only didn't make my list because of it's lack of a passive heal or fitness or shrugging. It does have an active heal, but this requires you to not be paralyzed and on balance.

    Serpent Because your squish, your not at speed cap and without a SoA to abuse high amounts of damage will force a retreat and starting over.

    But my choices are based around surviability first and killing methods second. with out a sip ring surviving bbt is going to be a pain.

    In groups.

    Apostate/Priest is going to tie for first, Rites are amazing but so is soulspear. Gravehands slightly superior to piety in my mind since it does not work off your enemy list. and of course beckon is one of the best group abilities around. Priests ability to heal allies might put it slightly ahead of Apostate however.

    Monk makes second. We already know why monk makes second. it is one of the most devastating group classes around.

    Third im going to give to Occultist. It has ranged damage with dopplegangers/Metors, AOE damage with Chaos rays, Can do high amounts of damage Pathfinder for easy escapes and Hangedman for over the line pissing people off hindering.

    Honorable Mentions
    Blademaster is one of the greatest hindering classes in the game. Balanceslash and Impales not to mention Voidfist (Blademaster impales are alot faster than knight impales for those who didn't know)

    Jester, Would have rated them higher than Occultist but they have a lack of damage and puppet travel requires someone to travel to Although hermit is still an option. Bombs are amazing. and hangedman is your worst enemy.

    Knights, Again with the above. Paladin and Infernal both come with the same thing that makes Apostate/Priest so good with the lack of Beckon. but instead have some of the highest damage in game. and can easily apply sensitivity for everyone else in the group. Runewarden on the other hand can prop a totem which in most cases if the enemy group hits the totem it's a wipe. Bows, the terror of the group, (Although im unsure on the greatness of unartie bows) (and we're going on run of the mil weapons here) The only reason Knights didn't make the list honestly, is Totems are going to be worked around. it's a great scare factor but how often does a group actually walk into a totem unknowningly. and rites and gravehands while amazing are factional abilities in which those factions (mine at least) is overloaded with the abilities and are likely already going to be present in your group.

    Serpent is amazing in groups. Phase backstab garrote can take out an enemy before they know what happened. and ranged fighting will get you through most of the fight with out anyone even targeting you. Only reason they didn't make the list is i'm honestly not sure on the effectiveness of unartied bows.

    Sylvan/Sentinel/Druid i've honestly not fought with them or against them enough to understand how to utilize them in groups.

    Bards Harmonics are game changing.. but because of this Bards are usually targeted first. and with out artifacts to boost the bards survivability they'll go splat.

    Magi Didn't make the list! While Vibes are powerful indeed they like bard are also targeted first. and retardation is a double edge sword.

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Gerwulf seems to be doing pretty well with damnation. No idea what stats his rapiers are tho, might be godly

    Also Sylvan is pretty much a damage class. Heartseed just helps against those who haven't figured out the defence against it, and for those who have it keeps them prone for the dmg. Not a very good 1v1 class anymore imo other than at low/low-mid tiers.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,991 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    Gerwulf seems to be doing pretty well with damnation. No idea what stats his rapiers are tho, might be godly
    Based on the log Herenicus posted in his Marked for Death thread, which unfortunately didn't have timestamps, he's probably using 227s or 231s. Restoration balance was faster than two doubleslashes (with balance recovery) which suggests 2.1 or 2.2.

    Damnation feels like it should be really strong right now, though there's a certain amount of hoping they get unlucky with what afflictions are cured; Herenicus would have survived that attempt if focusing had cured anorexia rather than stupidity, for example. Kind of like disembowel used to be back in the day, you just have to keep trying until it works.
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Damnation requires not just luck with focus and herb and smoke stacks, but poor curing, honestly, at least if they have fitness. I haven't seen a damnation log that would work on a well curing opponent with fitness. As far as instakills go, it seems fairly weak to me, and only successful a lot because nobody has anything coded to cure it properly.

    It would be better if slickness couldn't be cured by bloodroot.

    Sylvan is really weak unartied 1v1 imo. Can only kill people who just don't know how to cure heartseed at all, or are squishy.

    I really have no idea how strong occie is unartied. I've seen it be insane without torc, but I'm not sure about without int arties and diadem (I assume Seragorn has both of these, though, I'm not positive).

  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Gerwulf is like the Mongols, though: He's the exception.  And he'll fucking kill you.
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  • ValariaValaria Member Posts: 400 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Addama said:
    Gerwulf is like the Mongols, though: He's the exception.  And he'll fucking kill you.
    im not sure if it is a correct historic figure i'm referencing to, but one thing stuck in my memory is that guy would party with other with a special occasion: a person under the floor is being squashed to death. I'm not sure if it is the same crazy mongol or someone else. scary.

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