Puppet/Vodun Summon

Achimrst

Bluef said:

Achimrst said:

I'm still totally for cloak stopping vodun summon.

Except then it loses all its usefulness for what it is used for the most: Helping allies.

Screw allies, they suck anyway.

Nim

Bluef said:

Nim said:

I'm really confused... isn't unallying a free action?

Why would being able to force allying be dangerous at all, except against people who aren't aware of it (in which case most summon abilities will have a really high chance of working)?

One of the arguments here is that they should make it work on monolith for allies. It is possible to not be aware you've been allied in raid spam. Also blackout hides it.

I suppose blackout make sense. It just seemed to me that most common systems should probably be able to handle ally lists. Heck, if you have a list of enemies that take advantage of forced ally status, you could even routinely unally them during blackout in group combat, though if it was well timed (read: person A force allying to person B, and person B summoning, all within a couple of milliseconds), I guess that wouldn't matter.

Kadin

Achimrst said:

Bluef said:

Achimrst said:

I'm still totally for cloak stopping vodun summon.

Except then it loses all its usefulness for what it is used for the most: Helping allies.

Screw allies, they suck anyway.

No yours.

Achimrst

Kadin said:

Achimrst said:

Bluef said:

Achimrst said:

I'm still totally for cloak stopping vodun summon.

Except then it loses all its usefulness for what it is used for the most: Helping allies.

Screw allies, they suck anyway.

No yours.

Elphaba

Ernam said:

I actually didn't know that puppet summon ignored monoliths (if it actually does).  If so, that's pretty seriously broken.

My "posts of the past" sense is tingling.

Jhui said:

best tug of war ever won by my man @Dunn‌

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/c22dc36e

p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.313 [haem deaf pr transf]
The world blurs momentarily around you, then in the space of a blink of an eye, you find yourself
magically summoned to A bustling farrier's yard.
A bustling farrier's yard.
The stars twinkle in the clear night sky. A rune resembling a horse has been sketched into the
ground here (raido: return location). Humming under his breath, Mahmoud toils over his tools. There
are 2 Shornwall defenders here. A runic totem is planted solidly in the ground. Lambent energy
pulses around the skeletal frame of a Naxian mistweaver. Poised for action, a Blackstone swordsman
observes the surrounds. An attentive Duskmere brawler stands ready with his halberd, his keen eyes
missing nothing. A sigil in the shape of a small, rectangular monolith is on the ground. A winged
beast lurks in the shadows, its crimson eyes glowing brightly. A flake of stannum rests on the
ground here, gleaming a dull silver. A light smudge of green indicates a pinch of malachite dusts
the ground here. Flakes of silvery lead flutter in the air around the still-twitching body of this
mistweaver. There are 2 aurum flakes in 2 groups here. A Riverwall bow-maiden stares blankly up to
the sky, her beloved bow snapped underneath her corpse. There are 2 pinches of ground realgar in 2
groups here. A dark grey flake of plumbum sparkles upon the floor. A dull grey chip of magnesium
rests on the ground. Serenity cloaks the form of Orald, a battle pegasus, his posture alert and
battle-ready. A nebulous water weird is here. A fiery efreeti spins madly here. Oathsworn Coran is
here. He wields an elemental staff in his left hand and a butchering cleaver in his right. Sir
Morthif Aristata, Righteous Vessel is riding on Orald, a battle pegasus. He wields Ad'zeekh,
Whispering Bow of the Tsol in both hands. Rohai Shu'in-Crescent, the Argent Keeper is here. The
Silver Dragon Reonna's imposing form looms. Aarashi Shamshir Iskla Rian, Blade of the Bloodsworn is
here. He wields Ancient Crowns in his left hand. The Silver Dragon Ernam's imposing form looms.
Aarashi Shamshir Aelios Azon, the Argent Artificer is here. He wields an ornate steel rapier in each
hand. Soldier Wayde Devarius is here. He wields a Targossian darkbow in both hands. The Silver
Dragon Eigen's imposing form looms. Harbinger Aodfionn Wintermourne, Aarashi Proselytizer is here.
He wields a gleaming scimitar in each hand. Soldier Mel Shu'in-Crescent is here. He wields a cavalry
shield in his right hand.
You see exits leading north, west, and northwest.
Your attention is grabbed and held by a fascinating butterfly-like rune.
Your attention is grabbed and held by a fascinating butterfly-like rune.
Orald, a battle pegasus whinnies loudly at you, bristling with barely-contained animosity.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.534 [haem deaf pr transf]
An arrow flies in towards you.
It strikes you, gouging a deep and bloody wound.
-----------------------
| SHOT! | SHOT! |
-----------------------
One of your reflections has been destroyed! You have 2 left.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.541 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
You must wait a short while to use a say-like command again.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.556 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
Your mind is able to focus once again.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.560 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
You are transfixed and cannot do that. You must writhe to escape.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.682 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
You are transfixed and cannot do that. You must writhe to escape.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.686 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
You must wait a short while to use a say-like command again.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.744 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
Rohai gives you the once over.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.810 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
Aelios moves in to engage you.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.814 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
Ernam takes a drink from a redwood vial.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.910 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
Your breath mists with frost as you say, "Duanathar."
You are transfixed and cannot do that. You must writhe to escape.
p9785 (94%), 9649 (95%) 10153w, ex | cdk- METAWAKE [0] Guard 21:51:01.932 [haem deaf pr bld(169)
transf]
You mindlessly obey the summoning of Dunn.

Talysin

Isn't this more a problem with Shamans being able to fashion so fast? Leave Jesters out of this.

Jovolo

Well, the mechanic in and of itself is very strong. Are the constraints of it requiring fashions and depleting them through its use a fair enough limitation to justify it being as strong as it is? I don't think that's even really our call to make - the reasoning provided in the OP is good, and if you remove the bias evident in a number of people posting here ... it's simple enough to see that it requiring a mutual ally status (with the addition of adjusting enemy/ally lists being hidden in blackout...) is a more than fair compromise to make the ability more reasonable than it currently is.

That's for both Jesters and Shamans. Whether or not Shamans are acquiring fashions fast enough remains to be seen. If they are, then that's an issue in and of itself independent of Summon.

Oh, and I don't see it as game-breaking. I agree with Dunn that this is something that will probably be reviewed during classleads. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't discuss it, though.

Dunn

No one said anything about not discussing it. I simply meant that I wouldn't hope too hard for a change until a classlead season opens. I don't think shamans gain fashions too fast unless you're Mhaldorian and have an Apostate sapping or a group pressuring mana in another way. The maximum you can ever gain at one time is 16 when the target is on zero mana if anyone was curious.


I almost said a Targ with a priest sapping but noshamans4u.

Xith

So, I'm coming in late on this, but I've heard Shaman can get like 10 fashions per or something? Long story short, if they're getting more than like 3-5, they don't need to be. Getting a fashion on a curse is such a lovely buff already, I don't think it's a major hassle to reach the 20+ fashions you need. I'd say remove the mana-based fashioning and just make it a flat 2, allowing truefashion to make it a 4 when it hits, which is fairly often for Shamans I understand.

Achimrst

Xith said:

So, I'm coming in late on this, but I've heard Shaman can get like 10 fashions per or something? Long story short, if they're getting more than like 3-5, they don't need to be. Getting a fashion on a curse is such a lovely buff already, I don't think it's a major hassle to reach the 20+ fashions you need. I'd say remove the mana-based fashioning and just make it a flat 2, allowing truefashion to make it a 4 when it hits, which is fairly often for Shamans I understand.

We can get like 10 if you have about 10% mana or less.

Dunn

They need to be at like <70 mana to even get one fashion.

Mizik

I can't see why you'd need more than 1 or 2 fashions. Especially since it's almost twice the speed of actual fashioning.

If it's better than actually fashioning, it's overpowered, since it curbs the balancing factor of the powerful abilities in Vodun: requiring vulnerable down time for doll construction.

Achimrst

Mizik said:

I can't see why you'd need more than 1 or 2 fashions. Especially since it's almost twice the speed of actual fashioning.

If it's better than actually fashioning, it's overpowered, since it curbs the balancing factor of the powerful abilities in Vodun: requiring vulnerable down time for doll construction.

This made me lol, it is definitely not twice the speed of regular fashioning. I could fashion and run and get more fashions than cursing, not to mention getting fashions through cursing increases the mana and WP use of each curse.

Amranu

It's not better than regular fashions - most curses fail to get a fashion, and it costs over double the mana/willpower to try against anyone compentent.

The ceiling at 16 is far too high, but getting 0 for the cost is insane. 1 per curse would not be overpowered, hence my earlier suggest of 1-5 (1 per curse till below 70 or so)

Achimrst

Amranu said:

It's not better than regular fashions - most curses fail to get a fashion, and it costs over double the mana/willpower to try against anyone compentent.

The ceiling at 16 is far too high, but getting 0 for the cost is insane. 1 per curse would not be overpowered, hence my earlier suggest of 1-5 (1 per curse till below 70 or so)

But then it takes all the fun strategy out of it

Amranu

Not really, one per curse is about equivalent with current fashioning speed, except with afflictions/hindrance - similar to slow prepping limbs as knights.

Strategy can add 1-2 extra fashions per curse, which is double-triple the speed, at the cost of hindrance or locking potential to get an easier kill.

Mizik

You are obviously unaware of Shaman mana drain potential.

Then again, what do I know.

Achimrst

Amranu said:

Not really, one per curse is about equivalent with current fashioning speed, except with afflictions/hindrance - similar to slow prepping limbs as knights.

Strategy can add 1-2 extra fashions per curse, which is double-triple the speed, at the cost of hindrance or locking potential to get an easier kill.

One fashion per curse is waaaay faster than just fashioning.

Jovolo

Haha oh this thread is gold

Achimrst

Mizik said:

You are obviously unaware of Shaman mana drain potential.

Then again, what do I know.

Of course I am I know nothing about Shaman combat.

Lilian

Dunn said:

No one said anything about not discussing it. I simply meant that I wouldn't hope too hard for a change until a classlead season opens. I don't think shamans gain fashions too fast unless you're Mhaldorian and have an Apostate sapping or a group pressuring mana in another way. The maximum you can ever gain at one time is 16 when the target is on zero mana if anyone was curious.


I almost said a Targ with a priest sapping but noshamans4u.

hold on, can do that in Cyrene! (no I have nothing useful to comment on other than this. .)

Jinsun

Bump all of your arguments because they're a bit whiney on both sides. People who are overly worried about monolith being a problem offensively have never tried to use lust to summon one on one offensively. I mean being able to check allies in black out? What kinda shit is that? -And- empress is stopped by monolith. Just make deliver continent wide and stopped by mono and nerf alchemist. Amirite ?

Ernam

There are dozens of things that would be nice if blackout stopped, but aren't.  If someone's smart/fast enough to check allies while blacked out, notice lust, and is able to react appropriately before what is essentially an insta-kill (world summon to location of your choice), then I'd have to say (as an ex-Shaman, ex-Occultist, ex-Jester) that that's a perfectly fair counter.

Blackout works the way it works.  It's very, very powerful as is, and already work as is against all but the best combatants in the game (and even works on them sometimes, too).  Figure out how it works, and use it as it currently is.  It's fine.

I would think that you have killed enough people with blackout/Death that you wouldn't be asking for blackout upgrades.

Moot argument though, because I think that IRE knows better than to hand out any more buffs to world summons.  I would suggest that abilities that summon enemies to anywhere in the game continent are already too strong as they currently exist (hence the change to Deliverance/Preaching).

Or was that a troll?  (if so, bravo)

Jinsun

Ernam said:

There are dozens of things that would be nice if blackout stopped, but aren't.  If someone's smart/fast enough to check allies while blacked out, notice lust, and is able to react appropriately before what is essentially an insta-kill (world summon to location of your choice), then I'd have to say (as an ex-Shaman, ex-Occultist, ex-Jester) that that's a perfectly fair counter.

Blackout works the way it works.  It's very, very powerful as is, and already work as is against all but the best combatants in the game (and even works on them sometimes, too).  Figure out how it works, and use it as it currently is.  It's fine.

I would think that you have killed enough people with blackout/Death that you wouldn't be asking for blackout upgrades.

Moot argument though, because I think that IRE knows better than to hand out any more buffs to world summons.  I would suggest that abilities that summon enemies to anywhere in the game continent are already too strong as they currently exist (hence the change to Deliverance/Preaching).

Or was that a troll?  (if so, bravo)

I can't even take your vitriol seriously anymore.



No one is saying blackout should be upgraded. All I said was that the only way for it to work 1 v 1 offensively is for the person not to pay attention at all. Hell, svo autorejects and you an check allies during blackout. Can -easily- be scripted to never once fall for blackout lust. A permanent, unstoppable counter to that ability 1 v 1. Or just hey, sit on a monolith. Doesn't detract from the argument that a worldwide puppet summon with only being stopped by mono would be sweet in comparison. You just like to feel edgy. Go put on your trenchcoat and sulk somewhere.

Makarios

The op raises some good points. I don't imagine this would be something that would get changed outside of a classlead season (although it might be annoying, its not really on the level of something that's utterly ridiculous, etc). I'd also personally be a little wary of making any patch fixes to shaman post changes without seeing the full scope of issues people raise now that its had some time to be seen in action.

That said, I imagine there'll be a classlead season in the first quarter of the coming year (don't quote me on that, but its probably a reasonable assumption given the impact of the upcoming release).

Jinsun

Mak daddy for president.