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Puppet/Vodun Summon
Monolith sigils exist to prevent certain types of travel and, more relevantly, most types of summon. However, vodun and I assume puppet summon do not respect this counter. The result is that if you allow someone to get enough fashions on you during a raid or skirmish, it is quite literally impossible to prevent being summoned into a pre-set room and killed. Especially with the spirit Maligus bound, it is very easy for a shaman to wrack up fashions quickly in a raid setting. Thus I propose that vodun and puppet summon be changed to respect monolith sigils, bringing them in line with other types of summon such as brazier, deliver, and empress.
One potential argument against this change would be that while the use upon an enemy is admittedly overpowered, one must also consider its use on an ally. My counter to such an argument is that it would be easy to simply change it to respect mutual ally status. If they are mutual allies, it ignores monolith and thus retains its usefulness for helping out your team, but also prevent its use against an enemy in the same fashion.
Another comment I heard when discussing the proposed change with someone was that it can be countered by having your own ally summon you back. However, suggesting the counter to a broken mechanic is to use the exact same mechanic is not a reasonable reaction, and does not fix the underlying problem.
Thoughts/comments/concerns/insults?
(plz no insults
)
One potential argument against this change would be that while the use upon an enemy is admittedly overpowered, one must also consider its use on an ally. My counter to such an argument is that it would be easy to simply change it to respect mutual ally status. If they are mutual allies, it ignores monolith and thus retains its usefulness for helping out your team, but also prevent its use against an enemy in the same fashion.
Another comment I heard when discussing the proposed change with someone was that it can be countered by having your own ally summon you back. However, suggesting the counter to a broken mechanic is to use the exact same mechanic is not a reasonable reaction, and does not fix the underlying problem.
Thoughts/comments/concerns/insults?
(plz no insults
) 3
Comments
I'd prefer it just respect mutual ally and maybe be channeled for its balance time, firing on recovery (which leads to furthee interesting implications without being overpowered).
VODUN COMMAND <command>
Even with this its possible to force ally/summon with 31 fashions. Only 1 more than summon itself. Only 2 more if they have to force unenemy first. Although this would perhaps make you feel a better (or worse?) about getting ripped into an enemy group it can still be worked around pretty easily. I believe making it respect ally would be fair seeing as it would be on par with lust/empress in terms of keeping up with your ally/enemy list.
It would also be cool if manipulating enemy/ally lists were to be hidden in blackout, as they currently aren't. Something for classleads though.
Not sure why nobody has mentioned that puppet travel is massively different than Deliver, in that it works against enemies, not just your allies. That's why Deliver is a world summon, and puppet summon is area only. This was specifically changed after the Qashar used it to summon everyone into their kill room, just as Deliver was changed to require Preaching for the same reason.
I actually didn't know that puppet summon ignored monoliths (if it actually does). If so, that's pretty seriously broken.
Not sure why Jesters need Empress and puppet summon, just for ally "deliverance", anyways. You have a pretty amazing ability specifically designed to "Deliver" people (it's nearly identical, except it works worldwide), not sure why you need two (one of which allegedly ignores monoliths).
Great vs equally stupid things like beckon into denizen guards.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
Why don't you start vodun summoning people and see how easy it actually is? Post some logs of your extremely easy to get fashions too I would love to see some Vodun using shaman love.
Just because you're not doing it, doesn't mean other people aren't doing it. Not to mention, the fashion number scales pretty heavily with manaloss, and Mhaldor is a faction that does a lot a mana draining.
Which personally I don't see this as a bad thing, it's a useful tactic and I'm very sure there are ways around it such as Kross killing Dartega first and erasing his doll from him before he gets enough fashions to do this. Yet it sounds like the Apostate or whoever is helping leech would have fed the Apostate the kill in the first place! So his making fashions could be a great way to know when to instant apostate mana kill someone ( I forgot the ability name, absolve?) with a trigger to send to party or something.
Rofl. Yeah, @Achimrst. If only I had the log where @Dartega got like 100 fashions in 10(?) seconds. He would have to confirm exactly how fast it was.
You say "your apostate or priest was going to kill you anyway" as if you cannot get fashions via maligus AND cath/absolve, and then have not only a dead enemy but a doll to summon them with when they come back.
Summon has always been ridiculously OP though. It has little to do with maligus. Dartega got a number of fashions against enemies via normal fashioning, and can still abuse the shit out of summoning that way.
If we are going to fix the ability, though, not sure why we'd allow mutual allies to ignore monolith, since that's OP too. Might as well just make monolith always stop it.
Could make it usable on a monolith too, but with a channel and a message, much like displace. You see it start, you have to move to stop it. Could still save allies on monolith then, but it would be slightly slower. Could force enemies to move to stop it, which I think is fine given that you have to get a doll just to do that. Could summon enemies and allies instantly if no monolith.
Summoning an ally is basically what earring did before, perhaps the vodun summon should be something similar to displace or grove summon so you can leave the area and dodge it?
One thing to think about is that not everyone utilizes Maligus in their typical PvP set up, so the argument that it makes it too easy to get fashions is a bit off. I can see your point entirely, but summoning already requires the person to be in the area you're in. The simple way to counter it is to leave the area once someone has fashioned you up that much (or not to let them do so).
I do like the idea that it if mutual ally status is in place it would ignore the monolith - but you can currently force someone to ally you, so I'm not sure that in the end that idea solves what you're hoping to.
Also from a RP standpoint, it would make no sense for a non-vodun/puppetry user to be able to use sympathetic magical bonds just because a doll of them was made.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
I'd have to see the log of the fight, but if someone got 100 fashions in a raid skirmish in 10 seconds that does seem a bit OP. But it also could be a result of someone not paying better attention to something they probably should (mana changes).
I really hope you guys don't nerf a great skill down to nothing more than a brazier tattoo though. I see the points you're making but then why have vodun summon at all? Just get a brazier or prism tattoo to summon/force the person to move.
Although the complaints and ideas here seem semi-reasonable, my one concern is that everyone is speaking about game mechanics and ignoring the roleplay. Why would a mundane monolith sigil impact a spiritual connection to someone? Yeah, I know I'm being stupid. You don't care about that. But I do. Lots of shamans who roleplay might too.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
I'd agree except that would require waiting for the next round which could be who knows when, and honestly, I don't particularly want to have to deal with being summoned all over the place during raids until they open them up again.
Bad logic, vodun summon would still be far more powerful than a brazier tattoo even with the proposed nerf. Brazier requires stripping a particular defense which everyone has on keepup for it to work, whereas summon would just require them not to be on a monolith.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
Although if this was the case, I would like to see the fashion cost reduced to maybe four or something six and random stripping seems a bit high to me.