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Puppet/Vodun Summon

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  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2014


    Bluef said:

    I really hope you guys don't nerf a great skill down to nothing more than a brazier tattoo though. I see the points you're making but then why have vodun summon at all? Just get a brazier or prism tattoo to summon/force the person to move. 
    Bad logic, vodun summon would still be far more powerful than a brazier tattoo even with the proposed nerf. Brazier requires stripping a particular defense which everyone has on keepup for it to work, whereas summon would just require them not to be on a monolith.
    I could totally see cloak stopping vodun summon since it is very similar to Brazier, that way we can have a good use for vodun strip!

    Although if this was the case, I would like to see the fashion cost reduced to maybe four or something six and random stripping seems a bit high to me.
    Bluef
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,330 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I just think that maligus is one of the things that has to be rebalanced because of spiritlore being a new skill. idgaf if summon/travel is changed considering that every other skill like it has been changed to have limitations, but after reading the posts, I feel like the larger problem is with the supporting skills and those should be fixed first.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    SyriXith
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Maligus isn't something everyone utilizes though. For those that do, it should be powerful, because they're giving up the ability to bind something else that is very powerful itself.

    What I've found lately is that it is incredibly easy to pull off Maligus in group though because whatever recent changes they made to bleeding have everyone losing blood like they're in a sieve, which makes clotting more difficult to manage, which makes mana go down, down, down, which makes soulrending that much easier. 
    Achimrst
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bluef said:
    Maligus isn't something everyone utilizes though. For those that do, it should be powerful, because they're giving up the ability to bind something else that is very powerful itself.

    What I've found lately is that it is incredibly easy to pull off Maligus in group though because whatever recent changes they made to bleeding have everyone losing blood like they're in a sieve, which makes clotting more difficult to manage, which makes mana go down, down, down, which makes soulrending that much easier. 
    This, if you are using Maligus you are getting rid of something else, just because people don't know how to counter Vodun doesn't mean it should be changed to suit you.
    AntidasNim
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jonathin said:
    I just think that maligus is one of the things that has to be rebalanced because of spiritlore being a new skill. idgaf if summon/travel is changed considering that every other skill like it has been changed to have limitations, but after reading the posts, I feel like the larger problem is with the supporting skills and those should be fixed first.
    I like to think Maligus is pretty balanced, I'm sure if someone is being set up to use it via others sapping mana it can be extremely powerful but then again that is one or more people working together toward a goal of using Maligus as a weapon against raiders....that is called PvP
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Maligus gives an insane amount of fashions. Anywhere from 0-15+ per curse. Consider with nimble and swiftcurse, balance time is 0.9 seconds per curse, that can add up to a fully fashioned doll completed in less than a full round of curses.

    I think maligus might be better off if it was tuned down to 1-5 fashions per curse. This would increase it's usefulness in 1v1 which is what I think it was originally balanced around, by ensuring at least 1 fashion per curse, but wouldn't be as insanely good in teamfights.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Maligus starts giving like 1 fashion at 80% mana and 18 at like 5% mana. If you are cursing someone you are likely not doing damage so they are sipping mana instead of health, this seems pretty balanced to me as in 1v1 I doubt you are going to stick Manaleech without locking them or at least keeping them from curing asthma. Which isn't easy for a shaman to do with attuned to Maligus unless you are going to soulscourge the imbibe gecko which destroys the doll.
    Bluef
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Peoppe have obvioualy not been referring to it in the context of 1v1.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2014
    Jovolo said:
    Peoppe have obvioualy not been referring to it in the context of 1v1.
    There are like 4 or 5 smokeable afflictions, shaman can do like two and I actually use Maligus in raids and I don't get over enough to summon people. You can just say I'm too stupid to know how to do it sure, but I have actually tested things and it just sounds to me like Dartega is getting set up for fashions with Maligus because Apostates are draining mana.
    Addama
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    Maligus gives an insane amount of fashions. Anywhere from 0-15+ per curse. Consider with nimble and swiftcurse, balance time is 0.9 seconds per curse, that can add up to a fully fashioned doll completed in less than a full round of curses.

    I think maligus might be better off if it was tuned down to 1-5 fashions per curse. This would increase it's usefulness in 1v1 which is what I think it was originally balanced around, by ensuring at least 1 fashion per curse, but wouldn't be as insanely good in teamfights.
    I sort of see the point people are making about Maligus. Walk into a raid, stand there and soulrend/fashion. Three fashions and you can probably walk over to a guard stack, then summon. 

    Again, that is because the person's mana is down low enough that they're getting 10-15 fashions each time though. Maligus was supposed to fix the shaman's predicament of not being able to get fashions before dying three different ways but perhaps it does need some re-working.
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,330 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bluef said:
    Maligus isn't something everyone utilizes though. For those that do, it should be powerful, because they're giving up the ability to bind something else that is very powerful itself.
    That may be but that's how every skill like it works. Overall they are apples and bricks, but tekura and twoarts are similar in that you have to choose a stance that, while reducing a certain balance or giving a defensive bonus, you lose out on something like damage mitigation or output (overlooking the fact that they can be changed instantly).

    I'm not really saying that the skills should be nerfed into oblivion or go the way of obliterate, I'm just saying reworked so that it's not so lulzy. I will be the first to say that I'm going off of what I'm reading on both sides. I can see a point where both skills in question are not so lulzy but retain some usefulness.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • AntidasAntidas Member Posts: 1,504 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This thread is getting off track. Whether or not Maligns is overpowered has nothing to do with anything. The fact of the matter remains, no matter how one gets the fashions, a summon that has no counter is overpowered, and should be given some sort of way to prevent it.

    AchimrstDartega
  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Achimrst said:
    Jovolo said:
    Peoppe have obvioualy not been referring to it in the context of 1v1.
    it just sounds to me like Dartega is getting set up for fashions with Maligus because Apostates are draining mana.
    That's exactly what happens - Ayoxele and Atalkez drain, Dartega fashions, they hustle out before anybody dies.

    Then again they were outnumbered like 3:1 so I don't entirely blame them for using tactics like this.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
    Achimrst
  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Unfortunately, @Antidas, Makarios has said that they don't do big changes like this between classlead seasons sooooo... yeah.


    AntidasBluef
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Addama said:
    Achimrst said:
    Jovolo said:
    Peoppe have obvioualy not been referring to it in the context of 1v1.
    it just sounds to me like Dartega is getting set up for fashions with Maligus because Apostates are draining mana.
    That's exactly what happens - Ayoxele and Atalkez drain, Dartega fashions, they hustle out before anybody dies.

    Then again they were outnumbered like 3:1 so I don't entirely blame them for using tactics like this.
    Yeah I think a good cloak defense stopping Vodun Summon would be needed in this case! I also would love for a use for Vodun Strip if you can even get the fashions to use it and summon, it will make for some neat ranged attack ideas similar to Telepathy but require you to be in the room to prep for.
  • KadinKadin Member Posts: 123 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Daeir said:
    Deliverance is a factional skill and is associated with a variety of consequences for having access to it.

    Summon is not. You have a few fashions on a person and you can rip them from any room in an area without counter to be instantly killed. Deliverance requires a nominal amount of a slow replenishing resource and can only be used on people associated with Good - it does not work on enemies.

    All other instant travel/summons obey monolith - the fact that vodun/puppetry summon does not (at least on non-mutual allies) is probably an oversight that needs to be addressed.

    Please stop with the nose-turning WELL OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO HAVE THEIR TOYS TAKEN AWAY TOO approach whenever someone suggests something potentially impacting on an ability you have. You're not contributing anything to the discussion.
    Except that if it happens to be Vodun summon you use then you can't join Targossas because Shamans are too scary for you guys.
    AchimrstAddamaBluef
  • DartegaDartega Member Posts: 148 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2014
    Just to clear things up, since I seem to have started all this. I actually haven't been using Maligus to get fashions. 
    I've only had Maligus proc on one person, Kross, and that's because he spammed transmute in a group fight and drained himself to no mana. Then yeah, it got really ridiculous with the amount of passive fashions I received. Everyone else has just been me normally fashioning them
    AchimrstAddamaKuy
  • FlorentinoFlorentino Member Posts: 516
    edited December 2014
    Dunn said:
    Unfortunately, @Antidas, Makarios has said that they don't do big changes like this between classlead seasons sooooo... yeah.
    No, @Antidas is right. Things can get fixed - I'm just guessing Dunn doesn't want them to, so he can preserve another advantage a little longer. The change below is definitely comparable in scope to what is being proposed here.

    ANNOUNCE NEWS #4240                                    
    From   : Tecton, the Terraformer
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: Class tweaks

    While not a classlead season, we've made some minor adjustments to a couple of classes to bring things to a more balanced state. The details of these adjustments are as follows:


    Runelore
    --------
    * RAIDO now requires the Runewarden to have both balance and equilibrium when attempting to RIDE HOME.

    DalranErnam
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dunn said:
    Unfortunately, @Antidas, Makarios has said that they don't do big changes like this between classlead seasons sooooo... yeah.
    No, @Antidas is right. Things can get fixed - I'm just guessing Dunn doesn't want them to, so he can preserve another advantage a little longer. The change below is definitely comparable in scope to what is being proposed here.

    ANNOUNCE NEWS #4240                                    
    From   : Tecton, the Terraformer
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: Class tweaks

    While not a classlead season, we've made some minor adjustments to a couple of classes to bring things to a more balanced state. The details of these adjustments are as follows:


    Runelore
    --------
    * RAIDO now requires the Runewarden to have both balance and equilibrium when attempting to RIDE HOME.

    Oh god now Dunn is OP why does everyone feel the need to nerf Shaman all of a sudden... I am also very sure Dunn worked hard on his raid set-up.
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Dunn said:
    Unfortunately, @Antidas, Makarios has said that they don't do big changes like this between classlead seasons sooooo... yeah.
    No, @Antidas is right. Things can get fixed - I'm just guessing Dunn doesn't want them to, so he can preserve another advantage a little longer. The change below is definitely comparable in scope to what is being proposed here.

    ANNOUNCE NEWS #4240                                    
    From   : Tecton, the Terraformer
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: Class tweaks

    While not a classlead season, we've made some minor adjustments to a couple of classes to bring things to a more balanced state. The details of these adjustments are as follows:


    Runelore
    --------
    * RAIDO now requires the Runewarden to have both balance and equilibrium when attempting to RIDE HOME.

    That was a classlead, one I submitted that was approved. Oh my god an A-Team member classleaded a nerf to himself? All the time bro, all the time.


    Report #256
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: Nemutaur       Status      : Approved                 Priority : 3
    Skill       : Runelore       Ability     : Raido
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Problem:
    Raido can be used while paralysed and while off balance which is not in line with other escape 
    abilities.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
    Don't let raido work off balance.
    Solution #2:
    don't let raido be used while paralysed
    Solution #3:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Decision:
    Solution 2.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Elphaba
  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jhui got monk nerfed, I got Occie nerfed...

    All with classleads from ourselves. 


    BluefShirszae
  • KadinKadin Member Posts: 123 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Achimrst said:
    Addama said:
    Achimrst said:
    Jovolo said:
    Peoppe have obvioualy not been referring to it in the context of 1v1.
    it just sounds to me like Dartega is getting set up for fashions with Maligus because Apostates are draining mana.
    That's exactly what happens - Ayoxele and Atalkez drain, Dartega fashions, they hustle out before anybody dies.

    Then again they were outnumbered like 3:1 so I don't entirely blame them for using tactics like this.
    Yeah I think a good cloak defense stopping Vodun Summon would be needed in this case! I also would love for a use for Vodun Strip if you can even get the fashions to use it and summon, it will make for some neat ranged attack ideas similar to Telepathy but require you to be in the room to prep for.
    no.
    Achimrst
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dunn said:
    I don't use Maligus in raids so I really don't care. Glaring issues can be altered outside of a season, but I'm told more often than not that most things can wait until the next season. My raid setup is largely based around my team mates also performing, though. Also, if Dartega wants to only fashion and maybe affect one or two out of several fights, that's his call. If it gets him one summon onto a totem, whatever.

    Florentino so salty.


    Totally agree with this, I built my spirit attunement raid shaman strategy based off of Eleusian raid strategies too!
  • DartegaDartega Member Posts: 148 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Honestly, can probably just bump up the amount of fashions used on summon. With most people, especially super tanky ones (jhui), I can get to 30 fashions, summon, get close to 30 fashions again before they die. 
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm really confused... isn't unallying a free action?

    Why would being able to force allying be dangerous at all, except against people who aren't aware of it (in which case most summon abilities will have a really high chance of working)?
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nim said:
    I'm really confused... isn't unallying a free action?

    Why would being able to force allying be dangerous at all, except against people who aren't aware of it (in which case most summon abilities will have a really high chance of working)?
    One of the arguments here is that they should make it work on monolith for allies. It is possible to not be aware you've been allied in raid spam. Also blackout hides it. 


  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm still totally for cloak stopping vodun summon.
    SyriValaria
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