Spiritlore

Bluef

Xith said:

I imagine a typical combat strategy binding: Maligus & Tarnel, to get those quick fashions.

Then unbind Maligus and Tarnel, switching to:
Syvis (relapse)
Aelkesh** (more swiftcurses)
Aspar (coag afflicts)
Teraile** (bleed)
Marak (fashion to 20 so you can SOULSCOURGE paralysis with your final curse for the lock)

**=attuned

Unfortunately, not...unless you want to sit down in the middle of combat to bind/attune new spirits. 

Ernam

@Xith

Yeah the affliction rate and burst potential is absolutely terrifying, depending on how Relapse works.  Testing it as soon as I finish spamming [redacted] with lesson requests.

At a glance, it looks like a class with three skillsets worth of pure affliction output.  Unprecedented, and promises to be tricky to balance once people uncover the slew of ways to use it correctly as currently implemented.


On another note:

Is the addition of Wayfare enough justification to simply delete puppet travel?  If not, why?

Xith

Ernam said:

Xith said:

14. How long are the cooldowns on things like Snare and Roar?
- When will Achaea make numbers like this available so that every player ever doesn't have to test the mana/eq/damage costs of the hundred abilities they have access to?

Currently testing, will post results.

Projection cooldown and stuff too, if you could

Bluef

No. The spirit of Jhulian, The Nomad will allow you to travel to a mutual ally, given a short delay. 

Tharvis

Bluef said:

Xith said:

I imagine a typical combat strategy binding: Maligus & Tarnel, to get those quick fashions.

Then unbind Maligus and Tarnel, switching to:
Syvis (relapse)
Aelkesh** (more swiftcurses)
Aspar (coag afflicts)
Teraile** (bleed)
Marak (fashion to 20 so you can SOULSCOURGE paralysis with your final curse for the lock)

**=attuned

Unfortunately, not...unless you want to sit down in the middle of combat to bind/attune new spirits. 

what's the Eq/Bal time on binding/attuning new spirits? (if any)

Dunn

Relapse has a 25 second cooldown, coagulation has a 10 second cooldown.

You don't need soulscourge to lock anyone, but it does make it a little easier.

Don't think roar has a cd.

Snare breaks the bind so there's no cd, but you have to commune and rebind, which isn't happening in a fight.

Projection is something like 20 seconds, iirc.

The active heal is like tree and has a 10 second cd.

Jhui

Jhulian  - fitting it'd be an earring copy

Ernam

Bluef said:

No. The spirit of Jhulian, The Nomad will allow you to travel to a mutual ally, given a short delay. 

So how does this prevent traveling to your allies sitting on ramparts (which is exactly what puppet travel is used for)?

Dunn

Same way earrings are prevented. I think your axe is sharp enough, bud. Can stop grinding it.

Wayfare is actually a 3 second channel.

Ernam

Dunn said:

Same way earrings are prevented. I think your axe is sharp enough, bud. Can stop grinding it.

Wayfare is actually a 3 second channel.

Sounds perfectly reasonable.  Puppet travel should work the same way (or just be deleted because it's identical).

Xith

Ernam said:

@Xith

Yeah the affliction rate and burst potential is absolutely terrifying, depending on how Relapse works.  Testing it as soon as I finish spamming [redacted] with lesson requests.

At a glance, it looks like a class with three skillsets worth of pure affliction output.  Unprecedented, and promises to be tricky to balance once people uncover the slew of ways to use it correctly as currently implemented.


On another note:

Is the addition of Wayfare enough justification to simply delete puppet travel?  If not, why?

Jester for example has 3 skills that each contain: a bind/web, an illusion.
2 skills that contain: aeon, command, flight, blackout, instants, summon
But typically they accomplish these things in different ways. Wayfare looks more like earrings than puppet travel, which requires more effort and is instant and unblockable.


Between serpent, occie, shaman, and possibly bard, it looks like affliction classes are getting the upgrades needed to keep up with curing systems. But Shaman technically lost some defensive skills so that's fitting. It'll be a damage vs affliction competition.
I wouldn't say it's unprecedented considering bards, occies, serpents, and apostates, and alchemists have multiple balances they use to lock. Shaman is employing one very quick balance (swiftcurse) with the ability to pack an extra punch with Coagulation or relapsing at the appropriate time.

Dunn

Make a thread for it. All of those have worked so swimmingly!

Achimrst

Ernam said:

@Xith

Yeah the affliction rate and burst potential is absolutely terrifying, depending on how Relapse works.  Testing it as soon as I finish spamming [redacted] with lesson requests.

At a glance, it looks like a class with three skillsets worth of pure affliction output.  Unprecedented, and promises to be tricky to balance once people uncover the slew of ways to use it correctly as currently implemented.


On another note:

Is the addition of Wayfare enough justification to simply delete puppet travel?  If not, why?

Lol you think Wayfare equates to puppet travel?

First of all Wayfare doesn't even work on a monolith sigil, you or them on one. Meanwhile puppet travel lets you go to them no matter what.

Edit: Not to mention that puppet travel needs 30 fashions to work while you're off balance for several seconds I think it's like ...5.

Wayfare has a waiting period on it of about 2 seconds until you travel to them, haven't tested on a moving target though.

Bluef

Ernam said:

Bluef said:

No. The spirit of Jhulian, The Nomad will allow you to travel to a mutual ally, given a short delay. 

So how does this prevent traveling to your allies sitting on ramparts (which is exactly what puppet travel is used for)?

You suggested deleting vodun travel. Vodun travel is used for far more than traveling to mutual allies. 

I'd also like to point out that you already have a thread for discussing nerfs and deletions to fast travel skills you dislike or think are OP. If you want to continue discussing this idea, maybe take it over there.

Sena

Tharvis said:

what's the Eq/Bal time on binding/attuning new spirits? (if any)

First, before you can bind or attune, you have to commune, which requires you to be seated and has a 4 second delay (no bal/eq). Any action during those 4 seconds cancels it, though once it's finished you can do anything (except stand).

After that, there's a 4 second balance on attuning, and a 2 second delay (no bal/eq, other commands don't cancel it) on binding.

There's also a 2 second balance on unattuning/unbinding, which doesn't require communing.

I've only tested on a low-level alt though, I don't know if it's any better at trans.

Ernam

Achimrst said:

[quote] 

Lol you think Wayfare equates to puppet travel?

First of all Wayfare doesn't even work on a monolith sigil, you or them on one. Meanwhile puppet travel lets you go to them no matter what.

No, I absolutely do not think Wayfare equates to puppet travel.  I think that Wayfare does exactly what puppet travel does, but is stoppable, and therefore balanced.

The point I'm making is that puppet travel would be better to use 100% of the time Wayfare would be used, provided you keep a puppet of your allies (which is standard practice).  Why would you ever use wayfare when you can perform the exact same function but bypass hindrance, the delay, the channel, and monolith sigils?

Xith

Ernam said:

Dunn said:

Same way earrings are prevented. I think your axe is sharp enough, bud. Can stop grinding it.

Wayfare is actually a 3 second channel.

Sounds perfectly reasonable.  Puppet travel should work the same way (or just be deleted because it's identical).

No, puppet travel requires 30 fashions, and I can say from experience that they aren't easy to get when your allies keep moving around in raid groups or refusing to ally you. Especially since you'll have like 5 or 6 people to fashion. So yes it should still be instant, it has like a 3 or 4 second balance iirc.
- wayfare is global then?

Btw Ernam, allied puppets in raids are frequently used for travel, but now that Shamans can resurrect someone for 50 fashions, they need to keep those fashions instead of using them. So Wayfare is a replacement in that sense.

Dunn

Res also destroys the doll entirely.

Bluef

Ernam said:

Achimrst said:

Ernam said:

@Xith

Yeah the affliction rate and burst potential is absolutely terrifying, depending on how Relapse works.  Testing it as soon as I finish spamming [redacted] with lesson requests.

At a glance, it looks like a class with three skillsets worth of pure affliction output.  Unprecedented, and promises to be tricky to balance once people uncover the slew of ways to use it correctly as currently implemented.


On another note:

Is the addition of Wayfare enough justification to simply delete puppet travel?  If not, why?

Lol you think Wayfare equates to puppet travel?

First of all Wayfare doesn't even work on a monolith sigil, you or them on one. Meanwhile puppet travel lets you go to them no matter what.

No, I absolutely do not think they equate to puppet travel.  I think that Wayfare does exactly what puppet travel does, but is stoppable, and therefore balanced.

The point I'm making is that puppet travel would be better to use 100% of the time Wayfare would be used, provided you keep a puppet of your allies (which is standard practice).  Why would you ever use wayfare when you can perform the exact same function but bypass hindrance, the delay, the channel, and monolith sigils?

Ookay. I'm fighting someone. They run away. I can vodun travel to them and pick up the fight again as they run, hide, etc. Wayferer I cannot because they have to have me allied and there's a time delay on the ability. It would be like trying to touch brazier on someone who is running. You can force an ally, sure but the time it takes to use wayfare the person will have unallied you or moved to a monolithed room. 

In short, it's not the exact same function. You would use wayfare when you don't have a doll of someone but they are an ally. I think you're overestimating the amount of dolls people keep. For combat allies, sure I can see the A-team shamans having lots of dolls, but in general dolls are far too powerful to let anyone you don't absolutely trust maintain. 

Again, there is already a thread for fast travel discussions here. 

Achimrst

Ernam said:

Achimrst said:

[quote] 

Lol you think Wayfare equates to puppet travel?

First of all Wayfare doesn't even work on a monolith sigil, you or them on one. Meanwhile puppet travel lets you go to them no matter what.

No, I absolutely do not think Wayfare equates to puppet travel.  I think that Wayfare does exactly what puppet travel does, but is stoppable, and therefore balanced.

The point I'm making is that puppet travel would be better to use 100% of the time Wayfare would be used, provided you keep a puppet of your allies (which is standard practice).  Why would you ever use wayfare when you can perform the exact same function but bypass hindrance, the delay, the channel, and monolith sigils?

because sometimes during a raid I am off balance when we move and I can just wayfare to them. That's one way I can use it, travel to my allies in a grove. I definitely don't keep full dolls of every Eleusian hell they barely let me make dolls of them!

Ernam

You only need one doll to puppet travel, worldwide.  You don't need 5-6 puppets to puppet travel.

The primary problem with the ability is its impact on 1v1 combat, where in the non-theoretical, actual combat world, it is virtually always used to slow prep with fashion, or to bail on combat whenever momentum doesn't favor them.

In 1v1 combat, Wayfare is better for chasing than puppet travel, anyways, since a 3-4 second on arrival** to someone actively trying to evade you is more or less pointless.

**(what you said puppet travel incurs, which I don't think is actually true) 


This is why my disagree flag icon was/should have been funny.
|
V

Achimrst

Ernam said:

You only need one doll to puppet travel, worldwide.  You don't need 5-6 puppets to puppet travel.

The primary problem with the ability is its impact on 1v1 combat, where in the non-theoretical, actual combat world, it is virtually always used to slow prep with fashion, or to bail on combat whenever momentum doesn't favor them.

In 1v1 combat, Wayfare is better for chasing than puppet travel, anyways, since a 3-4 second on arrival (what you said puppet travel incurs) to someone actively trying to evade you is more or less pointless.

One doll of a person that is online and actually somewhere you can can get to/are welcome. Meanwhile wayfare anyone can ally me and I get to travel to them if they are off a monolith, such as when I'm in the forest defending.

Bluef

Ernam said:

You only need one doll to puppet travel, worldwide.  You don't need 5-6 puppets to puppet travel.

The primary problem with the ability is its impact on 1v1 combat, where in the non-theoretical, actual combat world, it is virtually always used to slow prep with fashion, or to bail on combat whenever momentum doesn't favor them.

Ernam, please stop derailing this thread about spiritlore in general to discuss something you've already created a separate thread for here.

Ernam

Please stop bypassing your own self-requested issues/ignore status.

Xith

That being said I would definitely blackout and command them to ally me to use wayfare later in the battle. Is there a balance after arrival or just the channel?

Elphaba

Except you can't use Wayfare to chase your enemies because it requires you to have each other mutually allied...

Melodie

Good lord, can you both just stop bickering like petulant children already?

Lets return to the topic of an interesting new skill and its discussion. No need for anymore posts of arguing, or asking them to stop arguing. Just stop yourself and the other person will stop too, I promise.

Elphaba

Melodie said:

Good lord, can you both just stop bickering like petulant children already?

Lets return to the topic of an interesting new skill and its discussion. No need for anymore posts of arguing, or asking them to stop arguing. Just stop yourself and the other person will stop too, I promise.

Right. That might work in normal circumstances, but I think you're overlooking the parties involved.

Achimrst

Elphaba said:

Except you can't use Wayfare to chase your enemies because it requires you to have each other mutually allied...

Like @Xith said there are ways around allies thing, but I was talking more about actual allies not enemies being forced to ally :P .

Xith

Melodie said:

Good lord, can you both just stop bickering like petulant children already?

Lets return to the topic of an interesting new skill and its discussion. No need for anymore posts of arguing, or asking them to stop arguing. Just stop yourself and the other person will stop too, I promise.

No u