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Fast Travel in Raids

ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
edited November 2014 in Paladin

Since everyone simultaneously complained about the previous discussion while participating in it, due to it being in Combat Logs... problem solved.


Moving discussion of using unstoppable fast travel abilities to this thread, so potential fixes can be discussed.

Please note that this is intended to be a combat balance (both 1v1 and group combat) discussion.  Your emotions and personal feelings about me or anyone else have nothing to do with this thread.  If you can't make your point and back it up with actual facts or justification, then don't even bother posting.

Short Version _____________

I'm calling for most "unstoppable" and/or "instant" fast travel abilities to be changed to allow more realistic/meaningful 1v1 and group combat.

I'm also calling for Orb of Confinement to be upgraded to having a meaningful purpose: preventing fast travel in/out of cities.

__________________________


Personally, I think that several abilities are currently very broken for 1v1 combat:


Raido - stopped only by monolith but can be used off balance (after attaching a mushroom sigil).  This also happens to allow tactics such as swapping to 5 second, 40%+ DSL rapiers and using Raido immediately following the DSL, allowing burst damage with none of the designed drawbacks/counters.

Can be used to slow prep using DSL in 1v1, bypassing all hindrance, and is frequently used to instantly fast-travel in and out of cities during raids, and can (as described) work instantly after mushroom sigils, bypassing monoliths (the only thing that prevents it).  Also allows following through Raido, allowing entire raid groups to instantly travel in/out of cities, even days later.

Needs a windup or should respect hindrance like normal movement


Universe - includes a warning message, but is up for a very long amount of time.  Also ignores every hindrance ability in the game, and bypasses monoliths on both ends.  Totally unnecessary for the class.  Presumably originally existed (before pathfinder was implemented) for convenience/flavor, but is currently primarily used to slow prep death in 1v1, and to instantly teleport entire raid groups out of danger in enemy cities.  Can also be kept up virtually forever by just re-throwing Universe cards, allowing bypass of the only balancing feature of the ability, which is the delay between casting and disappearing. 

Should probably just be deleted.  Otherwise, needs a windup or should respect hindrance like normal movement.  Should also stop if the caster dies.  (note that Occultist doesn't need uni/pathfinder in 1v1 due to astralform which already bypasses hindrance, but has viable counters)


Pathfinder - Respects Piety/Gravehands, but ignores everything else, including monoliths.  Able to kill the ent, but similarly able to be instantly resummoned.  Frequently used by occultists to slow prep or flee when combat doesn't go their way.  Also used by Occultists to instantly travel anywhere in the same plane, to allow earring groups to follow. 

Needs a windup, and probably some other form of limitiation like a cooldown or massive karma cost to prevent prep/pathfinder looping.  Should also be limited to area-only, or perhaps even a certain distance.

Puppet/Doll Travel  - Probably the most overpowered instant-travel ability in the game.  Instant, unstoppable, bypasses every form of hindrance in the game, including monoliths at either end, to any location worldwide.  Can have dolls on as many allies as they like, and can puppet travel to any of them, at any time, period.  Stopped only by two broken arms or prone lock, something that only a few classes in the game have access to.

Puppet travel completely destroys 1v1 combat for both Shaman and Jester, as it allows an infinite and almost entirely unstoppable method for slow-prepping with zero risk.  Even limb damage can't be used to counter it, as users of this ability frequently have their limbs reset before returning.

Needs to have a significant windup and should have a very large willpower cost added to discourage fashion/run looping.  Puppet travel should also respect every form of hindrance that would affect normal walking movement, aside from exit-based hindrance like rubble/walls.

Should also be limited to having a doll on one person at a time.  Being able to hold 10+ dolls and travel around to everyone in the game at any time is completely broken.


Orb of Confinement (city upgrade)

Currently extremely expensive, and stops only flying and Duanathar.  Nobody uses it, and haven't for a very, very long time.  The reason for this is that it stops virtually nothing.  The purpose of the upgrade is to prevent fast-travel out of the city, however it doesn't stop fast travel out of the city.  Considering that almost every single person who raids Targossas has access to at least one, if not multiple means of fast-traveling out of the city, stopping Duanathar is completely meaningless.  In fact, since normal hindrance abilities already stop Duanathar, but do not stop most other things (see above), the Orb is additionally unecessary.

Fix:

Orb of confinement should stop all fast travel abilities out of the city, including (but not limited to) everything listed above.  I would recommend that one exception be added for portals, to allow raids to be initiated and to allow citizens to get around.

Note: Should not stop active abilities used by other people, such as Deliver, Empress, and so on.  This would also add to raid feasibility and balanced travel convenience/ability.


Please discuss, but please do so in a way that is constructive, or don't post at all.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


        Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      Dalran
      «134

      Comments

      • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyPosts: 1,068Member
        Raido is fine as is. The off balance aspect has actually been brought up and deemed alright. See Classlead 256.

        Report #256
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Submitted by: Nemutaur Status : Approved Priority : 3
        Skill : Runelore Ability : Raido
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Problem:
        Raido can be used while paralysed and while off balance which is not in line with other escape
        abilities.
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Solution #1:
        Don't let raido work off balance.
        Solution #2:
        don't let raido be used while paralysed
        Solution #3:
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Decision:
        Solution 2.
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        HalosAustereBluef
      • ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Nemutaur said:
        Raido is fine as is. The off balance aspect has actually been brought up and deemed alright. See Classlead 256.

        Report #256
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Submitted by: Nemutaur Status : Approved Priority : 3
        Skill : Runelore Ability : Raido
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Problem:
        Raido can be used while paralysed and while off balance which is not in line with other escape
        abilities.
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Solution #1:
        Don't let raido work off balance.
        Solution #2:
        don't let raido be used while paralysed
        Solution #3:
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Decision:
        Solution 2.
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


        Solution 2 is chainable and totally pointless.

        Solution 1 was the only appropriate fix, and should also have additional limitations which I explained and justified above.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
            Dalran
          1. NemutaurNemutaur GermanyPosts: 1,068Member
            Raido has more counters than monolith though, you've already used one, just keep using them.
            Bluef
          2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited November 2014

            Monolith does not counter Raido.

            Mushroom was given a balance to fix this, but off-balance Raido makes it negligible.

            You know this - please try to see this objectively.

            The only other counter is Silence vibe (which does have a delay), and which, obviously, is available only to a single class, and thus irrelevant for 1v1 and the majority of raids.

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                BluefDalran
              1. DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenPosts: 2,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                edited November 2014
                Don't forget about non-supertanks like myself who -have- to use Raido to survive sometimes mang. You are basing nerfs off of the top-tier. Think about us little folk.

                EDIT: added non, because I'm a derpwad.
                Halos
              2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                edited November 2014

                Note that nobody said to delete it.  Just asking for it to not be 100% instant and unstoppable.

                Also note:  You aren't entitled to survive raids in enemy cities, particularly when massively outnumbered, a concept that I think the entire playerbase would do well to adopt.

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                    BluefDalran
                  1. NemutaurNemutaur GermanyPosts: 1,068Member
                    Raido is 'say' activated. The one time you guys used the silence vibe while keeping the Magi cooped up in Targ after the embed was rather effective.

                    Eleusis does nice stuttering work.

                    How about prone/sleeplocking someone? You have stated its an easy counter to some of your OP shit, do it to us and its easy to do in raids.

                    Entanglement is also good, so go get that enmesh looping dragon. Teach them not to only tailsweep but to alternate enmesh on target and then tailsweep while writhe and loopity loop loop loop looooooop
                    DaslinBluefAustereDalran
                  2. DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenPosts: 2,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    I'm not just talking just raids. Being jumped and shit, raido is a lifesaver.
                    Bluef
                  3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    edited November 2014

                    Comparing Raido to Angel sacrifice is ridiculous.  You can't use Angel Sacrifice to fast travel or slow prep, and it absolutely can't be repeated over and over again in 1v1 combat.  It also doesn't allow entire raid groups to travel into/out of cities.

                    You also can't chain Angel Sacrifice on the exact same balance as a 40% damage attack.

                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                        DalranTerra
                      1. NemutaurNemutaur GermanyPosts: 1,068Member
                        Raido is being called OP by you, Angel Sac is being called OP by us. You have offered sleep lock and prone lock as counters, so counter!
                        Bluef
                      2. BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        Ernam said:
                        Nemutaur said:
                        Raido is fine as is. The off balance aspect has actually been brought up and deemed alright. See Classlead 256.

                        Report #256
                        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Submitted by: Nemutaur Status : Approved Priority : 3
                        Skill : Runelore Ability : Raido
                        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Problem:
                        Raido can be used while paralysed and while off balance which is not in line with other escape
                        abilities.
                        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Solution #1:
                        Don't let raido work off balance.
                        Solution #2:
                        don't let raido be used while paralysed
                        Solution #3:
                        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Decision:
                        Solution 2.
                        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                        Solution 2 is chainable and totally pointless.

                        Solution 1 was the only appropriate fix, and should also have additional limitations which I explained and justified above.

                        This is not a discussion. This is you trying to tell everyone what should be or (supposedly) is.
                      3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                        edited November 2014

                        So far 2/3 people who have replied have responded with personal attacks or at least personal accusations/justifications for class balance suggestions.

                        Actually respond with things that make sense, or get out of my thread.

                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                            Dalran
                          1. DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenPosts: 2,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                            Don't think I'm flaming you here man, cause I'm not.

                            I haven't personally attacked you, nor accused of weird justifications beyond what I've seen. (See: Top-tier bias) I don't see anything inflammatory from Nemu, @Bluef's just a craycraytrollprincess though. Might be all her!
                            Bluef
                          2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                            edited November 2014

                            I should have stated this in the OP, but one of the core "bad aspects" of raids/skirmishes these days is that group combat is all about who has the most fast travel, and which, if any, can currently be prevented based on who is online in the defending city.

                            It's absolutely ridiculous that a group of 15 can rush a group of 4 and one or zero of the raiders dies because they instantly fast travel out, than instantly fast travel back in on a totem they smudged at little to no risk in the first place.

                            For combat to be meaningful, you should actually have to be present for it, and stay that way, at least within some constraints.


                            I'm going to go ahead and be a little frank.

                            I'm not that interested in hearing from the people who are currently using these mechanics to fast-travel during raids.  We already know you support them, because you use them constantly.  It's also fairly obvious that Ashtan has significantly more abilities and artefacts available that allow fast travel mid combat than anyone else.  So obviously you're going to support that to continue being the governing dynamic of combat.

                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                BluefDalran
                              1. BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                edited November 2014

                                Okay, first of all - wrong forum area for this. Paladins don't even have raido, universe, pathfinder, or puppet/doll travel.

                                Second, I think people with these abilities would be willing to discuss your concerns if you were willing to listen to why they think things are in most cases working just fine.

                                Third, I thought Raido could be countered by a silence vibe, by breaking legs, by putting someone to sleep, and (far easiest of all solutions) by throwing a monolith down.

                                Fourth, puppet/doll travel can be countered by breaking their arms so they're not holding the doll, by forcing them to unwield doll or to wield something else, and I'm sure by other ways I'm not thinking of at the moment because I'm not actually logged into Mudlet.

                                Fifth, I don't know anyone who slow preps using puppet travel. Maybe I'm missing some giant jester/shaman conspiracy that has recently arisen but the problem for jesters/shamans in 1v1 (which is specifically what your OP mentioned) is the opposite from what you've described here: People run to cities to hide from us, not vice-versa.

                                There. I hope that makes sense. If not, walk away from your computer for a while, cool down and see if it does when you return.

                                Halos
                              2. NemutaurNemutaur GermanyPosts: 1,068Member
                                Ernam said:



                                I'm not that interested in hearing from the people who are currently using these mechanics to fast-travel during raids.  We already know you support them, because you use them constantly.  It's also fairly obvious that Ashtan has significantly more abilities and artefacts available that allow fast travel mid combat than anyone else.  So obviously you're going to support that to continue being the governing dynamic of combat.

                                Land of the free blah di blah. Also dude I'm the one who classleaded a nerf to this. We regularly class lead nerfs to our own stuff.
                                AustereBluefDalran
                              3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                edited November 2014
                                Bluef said:

                                Okay, first of all - wrong forum area for this. Paladins don't even have raido, universe, pathfinder, or puppet/doll travel.

                                What? (are you talking about)

                                Second, I think people with these abilities would be willing to discuss your concerns if you were willing to listen to why they think things are in most cases working just fine.

                                I'm willing to listen to anything that doesn't start with: "You think [something] about [something else] so you're obviously wrong."  Have yet to see any actual responses other than your [this] post which is ridiculously uninformed.

                                Third, I thought Raido could be countered by a silence vibe, by breaking legs, by putting someone to sleep, and (far easiest of all solutions) by throwing a monolith down.

                                I already discussed the things you mentioned in the OP, which you don't seem to have read.

                                Fourth, puppet/doll travel can be countered by breaking their arms so they're not holding the doll, by forcing them to unwield doll or to wield something else, and I'm sure by other ways I'm not thinking of at the moment because I'm not actually logged into Mudlet.

                                wield/travel is instant, and can be done with either arm.  I specifically also discussed this in the OP.

                                Fifth, I don't know anyone who slow preps using puppet travel. Maybe I'm missing some giant jester/shaman conspiracy that has recently arisen but the problem for jesters/shamans in 1v1 (which is specifically what your OP mentioned) is the opposite from what you've described here: People run to cities to hide from us, not vice-versa.

                                Seriously?  Perhaps this is why people who don't participate in PVP shouldn't weigh in on PVP balance discussions.

                                There. I hope that makes sense. If not, walk away from your computer for a while before typing a furious response, cool down and see if it does when you return.

                                I'm not furious about anything, but I admit to being mildly annoyed by having a mature-minded class balance discussion immediately derailed by people who either A ) Are blatantly defending OP abilities with no real arguments or B ) trolling me because of personal grievances (you).  "LOL"ing every post I make is a pretty dead giveaway, on top of the fact that you categorically insult/lol/flag every single time you post near me.  Just... stop.  Go away.  This thread is not for you, @Bluef, because you (sorry) honestly have no idea what you're talking about.  Will gladly answer any questions you have though, as long as they stop being passive aggressive jabs and trolls.


                                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                    Bluef
                                  1. AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                    Nemutaur said:
                                    Ernam said:



                                    I'm not that interested in hearing from the people who are currently using these mechanics to fast-travel during raids.  We already know you support them, because you use them constantly.  It's also fairly obvious that Ashtan has significantly more abilities and artefacts available that allow fast travel mid combat than anyone else.  So obviously you're going to support that to continue being the governing dynamic of combat.

                                    Land of the free blah di blah. Also dude I'm the one who classleaded a nerf to this. We regularly class lead nerfs to our own stuff.
                                    This, so much.  Just look at any class poppa @Jhui‌ has been. 
                                  2. JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,918Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                    Ashtan is generally the largest proponent of classleads that get Ashtan nerfed. Been that way for multiple classlead sessions.

                                    Also, mushroom balance had nothing to do with raido, it had everything to do with Emperor. It's already been decided that current functionality is ok based on the classlead that was proposed and approved. It's fine to feel like that wasn't enough, but your opinion is clearly not shared by those who handle combat balance at this time.
                                    image
                                    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

                                    Bluef
                                  3. DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenPosts: 2,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                    Ernam said:
                                    Bluef said:

                                    stuf

                                    I'm not furious about anything, but I admit to being mildly annoyed by having a mature-minded class balance discussion immediately derailed by people who either A ) Are blatantly defending OP abilities with no real arguments or B ) trolling me because of personal grievances.


                                    Hang on, hang on. I gave a fair argument, and you didn't even really give it time of day. As for being trolled because of personal grievances, look at where your feelings are, bro. This -heavy- nerf you want hits a lot of classes, and affects more than raids(where most of your rage seems to come from, far as I can tell), and this entire thing just feels hate filled. I'm not trying to piss you of here, but you're acting like the middle child who is accidentally overlooked and gets a "lesser toy" than their siblings. Breathe, my man. Breathe.
                                    Bluef
                                  4. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                    edited November 2014
                                    @Daslin‌ ;

                                    Why am I consistently the only one being calm?  While I make consistently well-justified remarks and comments, this entire thread has been nothing but "You're stupid", "nu uhhs",and "you're obviously just angry" remarks.   (Oh, forgot @Jarrod's "neener neener just reminding you that somehow I'm in the ACC and you aren't" remark)

                                    Please feel free to weigh in with some actual responses to the OP.


                                    And yes, I'm asking for some changes that would immensely change group combat, because I (and many others) believe that some significant changes would dramatically improve the fun and "balance" of combat in general.

                                    As a very experienced combat (although of course my 10,000+ kills/deaths/duels pales in comparison to @Bluef's 151) I would also state that several of these abilities are serious problems in 1v1.  So far I haven't seen many people "abuse" raido in 1v1, but that doesn't mean that it can't be.  However, pathfinder, Uni, and puppet travel are staple tactics used by almost everyone who can use them, every time they fight.

                                    Anyone who's ever seen a Vrass/Jinsun/Daje/Omi log would have a hard time justifying their class' need to have the ability to instantly teleport anywhere in the world through every form of hindrance.

                                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                      1. JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,918Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                        edited November 2014
                                        There was no 'neener neener' comment there.

                                        Nemutaur posted a classlead calling for specifically some of the changes you proposed, with the change you were seeking as a potential solution. It was approved with a different solution. This is a clear indication that while you think Solution 1 was necessary, the person responsible for combat balance (Tecton) did not. Please stop reading into things that aren't there and look at what is actually in front of you.

                                        Ernam said:
                                        (although of course my 10,000+ kills/deaths/duels pales in comparison to @Bluef's 151)

                                        Most of those must be deaths, because you're barely 1/4th there in kills (combined).
                                        image
                                        Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

                                        BluefDalran
                                      2. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
                                        edited November 2014
                                        I have absolutely no idea why this is in Paladin.

                                        I also think Ernam's tone is incredibly obnoxious and not very constructive (even if the content is), which is swiftly becoming a recurring theme.

                                        That said, I actually agree with him on most of this. I'm not experienced enough or good enough at 1v1 to comment on that, but I've been in plenty of raids in this game and fast-travel is a tremendously huge part of virtually all of them. It's boring. Do the fast-travel abilities technically have counters? Sure, some of them do. But you can't realistically counter every person in an entire group - and only one of them needs to throw Universe to get the entire group instantly to safety. Right now, there is very, very little risk involved when an invading force holes up in the middle of a hostile city because it's just as easy to get away from the very centre of a city as from the gates. Likewise, reinforcements can appear instantly. If someone dies, they can often be back with the group mere seconds after coming back to life, which contributes to boring raid stalemates too.

                                        Fast-travel has played an awkwardly large part in raiding as long as I've played Achaea. And I think people, and the admin, are actually more or less aware that it is in fact a problem, which is why we've seen things like the changes to earrings and the addition of Orb of Confinement in the first place. Those changes just didn't go far enough to actually solve the problem.

                                        My personal preference would be to see an ability either in a neutral class or in a city improvement that would completely shut down all fast travel in and out of the city for enemies and citizens alike - basically a fast-travel version of alchemist DISRUPT. Hell, maybe even give it to alchemists - it fits with their theme of being city-bound and with DISRUPT and DISPLACE. So that it doesn't get used willy-nilly, perhaps have it require more than one person like cataclysm, though only the alchemist starting it has to be alchemist class.
                                        ErnamHalos
                                      3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                        edited November 2014

                                        Having Raido stopped by the highest priority affliction in the game, with a cure that can be not only instantly cured, but pre-cached, is meaningless.

                                        It stops nothing, as evidenced by the fact that every single Ashtan raid since earring nerfs has centered around using Raido to instantly travel in/out of Targossas.

                                        Jarrod, we both know that it's broken, regardless of the result of the classlead.  Trying to make arguments based on decisions made in the past instead of (lo and behold) responding to any of the actual valid points I've made here is yet another method of misdirection.

                                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                            Bluef
                                          1. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                            edited November 2014
                                            Tael said:
                                            I have absolutely no idea why this is in Paladin.

                                            Oh.  I clicked "Golden Dais of Creation".  No idea why it ended up here.  Forum glitch or typo on my part.

                                            I'll try to stop being what you see as "obnoxious", but it's very frustrating when the entire first page of the thread (so far?) is almost nothing but personal beefs and derails.

                                            I guess leading the post with "Please don't derail this or fill it with personal beef" was pretty bad strategy though.  Ended up working more like an invitation.

                                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                              1. DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenPosts: 2,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                                Ernam said:

                                                Since everyone simultaneously complained about the previous discussion while participating in it, due to it being in Combat Logs... problem solved.


                                                Moving discussion of using unstoppable fast travel abilities to this thread, so potential fixes can be discussed.

                                                Please note that this is intended to be a combat balance (both 1v1 and group combat) discussion.  Your emotions and personal feelings about me or anyone else have nothing to do with this thread.  If you can't make your point and back it up with actual facts or justification, then don't even bother posting.

                                                Short Version _____________

                                                I'm calling for most "unstoppable" and/or "instant" fast travel abilities to be changed to allow more realistic/meaningful 1v1 and group combat.

                                                I'm also calling for Orb of Confinement to be upgraded to having a meaningful purpose: preventing fast travel in/out of cities.

                                                __________________________
                                                --->DASLIN: In/out of city would fuck you guys on the defensive if we posted up near gates, because lolnodeliver.

                                                Personally, I think that several abilities are currently very broken for 1v1 combat:


                                                Raido - stopped only by monolith but can be used off balance (after attaching a mushroom sigil).  This also happens to allow tactics such as swapping to 5 second, 40%+ DSL rapiers and using Raido immediately following the DSL, allowing burst damage with none of the designed drawbacks/counters.

                                                Can be used to slow prep using DSL in 1v1, bypassing all hindrance, and is frequently used to instantly fast-travel in and out of cities during raids, and can (as described) work instantly after mushroom sigils, bypassing monoliths (the only thing that prevents it).  Also allows following through Raido, allowing entire raid groups to instantly travel in/out of cities, even days later.

                                                Needs a windup or should respect hindrance like normal movement

                                                --->DASLIN: There are already ways to stop this, that -don't- require a certain person being logged on at all times. It's been pointed out. Dead horse. Sleep us, paralyse, prone, stick on BM on impale duty, enmesh, web tattoo(Achilles is -famous- for that one) Same shit you say stops angel sac, can stop us raido'ing. Try it.


                                                Universe - includes a warning message, but is up for a very long amount of time.  Also ignores every hindrance ability in the game, and bypasses monoliths on both ends.  Totally unnecessary for the class.  Presumably originally existed (before pathfinder was implemented) for convenience/flavor, but is currently primarily used to slow prep death in 1v1, and to instantly teleport entire raid groups out of danger in enemy cities.  Can also be kept up virtually forever by just re-throwing Universe cards, allowing bypass of the only balancing feature of the ability, which is the delay between casting and disappearing. 

                                                Should probably just be deleted.  Otherwise, needs a windup or should respect hindrance like normal movement.  Should also stop if the caster dies.  (note that Occultist doesn't need uni/pathfinder in 1v1 due to astralform which already bypasses hindrance, but has viable counters)

                                                --->DASLIN:Has a wind-up. Just cause it's tossed prior to your arrival doesn't mean there's not a wind-up.


                                                Pathfinder - Respects Piety/Gravehands, but ignores everything else, including monoliths.  Able to kill the ent, but similarly able to be instantly resummoned.  Frequently used by occultists to slow prep or flee when combat doesn't go their way.  Also used by Occultists to instantly travel anywhere in the same plane, to allow earring groups to follow. 

                                                Needs a windup, and probably some other form of limitiation like a cooldown or massive karma cost to prevent prep/pathfinder looping.  Should also be limited to area-only, or perhaps even a certain distance.

                                                --->DASLIN:I'm not too heavily versed on this one, so I can't field this aside from the fact that I've seen Jinsun and others get rek't and unable to pathfinder.

                                                Puppet/Doll Travel  - Probably the most overpowered instant-travel ability in the game.  Instant, unstoppable, bypasses every form of hindrance in the game, including monoliths at either end, to any location worldwide.  Can have dolls on as many allies as they like, and can puppet travel to any of them, at any time, period.  Stopped only by two broken arms or prone lock, something that only a few classes in the game have access to.

                                                Puppet travel completely destroys 1v1 combat for both Shaman and Jester, as it allows an infinite and almost entirely unstoppable method for slow-prepping with zero risk.  Even limb damage can't be used to counter it, as users of this ability frequently have their limbs reset before returning.

                                                Needs to have a significant windup and should have a very large willpower cost added to discourage fashion/run looping.  Puppet travel should also respect every form of hindrance that would affect normal walking movement, aside from exit-based hindrance like rubble/walls.

                                                Should also be limited to having a doll on one person at a time.  Being able to hold 10+ dolls and travel around to everyone in the game at any time is completely broken.

                                                --->DASLIN:Dolls lose fashions over time, you have to fashion back what you used up. Could that stand to be changed? I dunno, haven't had a doll class in forever, so I can't speak on it.


                                                Orb of Confinement (city upgrade)

                                                Currently extremely expensive, and stops only flying and Duanathar.  Nobody uses it, and haven't for a very, very long time.  The reason for this is that it stops virtually nothing.  The purpose of the upgrade is to prevent fast-travel out of the city, however it doesn't stop fast travel out of the city.  Considering that almost every single person who raids Targossas has access to at least one, if not multiple means of fast-traveling out of the city, stopping Duanathar is completely meaningless.  In fact, since normal hindrance abilities already stop Duanathar, but do not stop most other things (see above), the Orb is additionally unecessary.

                                                Fix:

                                                Orb of confinement should stop all fast travel abilities out of the city, including (but not limited to) everything listed above.  I would recommend that one exception be added for portals, to allow raids to be initiated and to allow citizens to get around.

                                                Note: Should not stop active abilities used by other people, such as Deliver, Empress, and so on.  This would also add to raid feasibility and balanced travel convenience/ability.

                                                --->DASLIN:See my first response. too lazy to c/p here.
                                                Please discuss, but please do so in a way that is constructive, or don't post at all.

                                                My responses, reasonable and logical responses, are denoted by "--->DASLIN:"
                                                BluefMannimar
                                              2. AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                                edited November 2014
                                                Edit: realized I don't care. 
                                                Tael
                                              3. BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                                edited November 2014
                                                Ernam said:
                                                Bluef said:

                                                Okay, first of all - wrong forum area for this. Paladins don't even have raido, universe, pathfinder, or puppet/doll travel.

                                                What? (are you talking about)

                                                You posted this in "Paladin." Why?

                                                Second, I think people with these abilities would be willing to discuss your concerns if you were willing to listen to why they think things are in most cases working just fine.

                                                I'm willing to listen to anything that doesn't start with: "You think [something] about [something else] so you're obviously wrong."  Have yet to see any actual responses other than your [this] post which is ridiculously uninformed.

                                                So anyone who disagrees with you is now misinformed. Mk.

                                                Third, I thought Raido could be countered by a silence vibe, by breaking legs, by putting someone to sleep, and (far easiest of all solutions) by throwing a monolith down.

                                                I already discussed the things you mentioned in the OP, which you don't seem to have read.

                                                I did read it and you don't seem to want to acknowledge that there are ways to counter many of the things you've listed already in place. 

                                                Fourth, puppet/doll travel can be countered by breaking their arms so they're not holding the doll, by forcing them to unwield doll or to wield something else, and I'm sure by other ways I'm not thinking of at the moment because I'm not actually logged into Mudlet.

                                                wield/travel is instant, and can be done with either arm.  I specifically also discussed this in the OP.

                                                If someone is slow prepping you, then the most likely reason for that is you are the one running from them. They're not puppet traveling to escape and then coming back to you because that's not 1v1 combat. That's combat with an assist by the person they're doll traveling away to. Furthermore, no we can't have "as many allies as they like" because the number of ally slots is static. Yes, it bypasses monoliths. Yes, it is worldwide. It's earrings in a skillset. I think you already know this and given that you're the huge champion for trying to get earrings nerfed I see this as nothing but an attempt at the next closest thing and not a reasonable concern about something becoming so troublesome we need to change an entire ability over (yet).

                                                Fifth, I don't know anyone who slow preps using puppet travel. Maybe I'm missing some giant jester/shaman conspiracy that has recently arisen but the problem for jesters/shamans in 1v1 (which is specifically what your OP mentioned) is the opposite from what you've described here: People run to cities to hide from us, not vice-versa.

                                                Seriously?  Perhaps this is why people who don't participate in PVP shouldn't weigh in on PVP balance discussions.

                                                Seriously? You whine about people not commenting with actual thought out responses and then you slam them personal insults when you can't offer up a reasonable example of how this is a widespread issue effecting gameplay. Weren't you the one the other day making memes about ad hominem attacks? Yeah, I think you were.

                                                There. I hope that makes sense. If not, walk away from your computer for a while before typing a furious response, cool down and see if it does when you return.

                                                I'm not furious about anything, but I admit to being mildly annoyed by having a mature-minded class balance discussion immediately derailed by people who either A ) Are blatantly defending OP abilities with no real arguments or B ) trolling me because of personal grievances (you).  "LOL"ing every post I make is a pretty dead giveaway, on top of the fact that you categorically insult/lol/flag every single time you post near me.  Just... stop.  Go away.  This thread is not for you, @Bluef, because you (sorry) honestly have no idea what you're talking about.  Will gladly answer any questions you have though, as long as they stop being passive aggressive jabs and trolls.

                                                You think everything you can't buy an artefact to stop is OP. That's unreasonable to me. I'm not trolling you - I play several classes that use these abilities you're trying to get nerfed. I LOL at your post because when I click disagree you post negative things that derail entire discussions, plus your tantrums are, at times, pretty hilarious. It's a game. Calm down. Stop bashing people and discuss your ideas or just log off the forums for a while.



                                              4. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
                                                edited November 2014
                                                Ernam, once again, there have been a number of people posting things that weren't "personal beefs and derails".

                                                Go scroll back. A number of people have given you reasons for things. You just didn't like them. Someday I think you will need to internalize the fact that sometimes people don't agree with you and that's okay. It doesn't make them bad people. When you respond to them with a reasoned argument, they might still not agree with you. And that too is okay.

                                                To put it in clearer terms, every idea thread you comment in is filled with you "mansplaining" things, though I don't mean to refer to the gender connotations of the word. You come across as extremely condescending, you attack anyone who disagrees with you (even if it's a reasoned response, it is still phrased as an attack - while you seem to think the two are mutually exclusive, they are not), and you universally assume that any time you get the last word (which is always, since people generally say their piece and then give up) this means that you were clearly right.

                                                And then you start playing victim when anyone responds in kind or calls you on it.

                                                Even when I agree with you, I'm tentative about actually voicing it.
                                                BluefAegoth
                                              5. AddamaAddama Posts: 947Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                                Austere said:
                                                Just a thought here,  if you make it to where it takes 15 Ashtani to raid,  we will bring 15. You realize there is never an offensive raid request on ct, right?  Nerf everyone into the ground,  and there will be a lot more tears from guard raids (because you guys won't defend if we bring our legit numbers). I could careless either way,  but crying nerf because you aren't winning is dumb.  You will never win with that attitude. 
                                                What the hell does this even mean?  "If we can't win this way, we'll win a different way"?

                                                Pretty sure I'd rather see twice as many raiders who can't escape a fight instantly.
                                                ~Kresslack's obsession~
                                                TaelMorthif
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