Unclassed Class

Antreus

Hello, 

I was considering a character the other day that uses no Classed skills, but merely draws upon the skills available to everyone. What are the realistic prospects of a character like this in the world of Achaea? Where is the curve in terms of difficulty, and at what levels does it become increasingly arduous or advantageous? Let's just assume you can pick three unclassed skillsets and a trade skill: how would you build your character? 

What worries me most is bashing solo, where weaponry might be advantageous early, but fall off later on due to Brawling scaling of HP. There's definitely a preference for questing utilizing the monthly subscription for experience. I have read recently via @Sena‌ , that Brawling does not get better the further you train in Survival. When the trend seems to now be with the overall dps to denizens, that the more knowledge you gain in a skill that uses an attack, the more formidable you become when using that attack, yet this logic isn't applied to Brawling - why is that? 

Do these general skills exist just to fill gaps and round out Classes across the board or can you actually create your own Class using them?  Even if the possibility is arduous, the potential is there. Which brings me back to damage to denizens - why is the potential seemingly there, but the incentive low?



Here's a Tomaculan Troll Scout concept I threw together, if Brawling was a tad more effective and scaled like other damage vs. denizen attacks:

Primary

• Survival: Transcendent
• Vision: Transcendent
• Tattoos: Transcendent

Secondary

• Riding
• Weaponry

Auxillary

• Avoidance

Example Traits

• Major: Nimble, Lethal Ink, Cheap Shot
• Minor: Wild Walker, Traveller, Knife Thrower, Marksman

Addama

From a roleplay perspective, this is just unrealistic.  If you like brawling with your fists, you're going to lean toward Monk, and if you like playing with swords, you're going to lean toward a Knight.  Swordplay without, erm, Swordplay would be miserable since Chivalry not only scales up your damage but also your to-hit.  And hunting without the class skillset defenses would be likewise miserable.

The better question is why would you choose Classless when there's a ton to be gained by choosing any class?

Eld

Brawling, as far as I know, basically existed to give newbies some way to kill pixies before they'd earned enough lessons to get an effective hunting attack from their class skills. There have been a number of changes recently to move hunting attacks lower in their respective skills, so that you can pretty much always get them with their starting lessons (I think all classes can, at this point), which makes brawling pretty much vestigial at this point. The incentive to play a classless character is low because the game is designed around classes. It's possible to be classless so that if you're undecided on your class, you can hold off on that decision until you've experienced a bit more of the game, but again, with recent changes making it easier to change classes early on, that reason is also basically obsolete.

If you really wanted to see how far you could get as a classless character, I would guess that weaponry would be your best bet for bashing for a while, with brawling maybe eventually being better for higher-health denizens, since its damage scales with the denizen's max health. Not 100% sure about that, though.

PvP would be a non-starter. Everything's balanced around class skills, and without them, you just don't have the tools you'd need.

Addama

Eld said:

PvP would be a non-starter. Everything's balanced around class skills, and without them, you just don't have the tools you'd need.

Exactly.  Wwith Weaponry, what you've got is the ability to apply one venom at a time.  You can't possibly expect to stack afflictions or slow momentum or dish out significant damage.  With brawling, you have, uh, targeted attacks?  I guess I've never tried targeting with PUNCH or KICK but it must take a ridiculous number of those to break a limb, and even when you do, what's the point without things like impale/dsb or bbt?

Amarillys

There are more weapons than swordplay. You could pick up a polearm, something knights do not support, and go full insane with it. Classless also get chainmail, so that would be a good way to go. I would probably, from a roleplay perspective, pick up proficiency in a weapon that you cannot use in a class (like a polearm) or one that is used for a class outside your faction (Trident/spear springs to mind). Weaponry would, for obvious reason, become more important for this reason. Using the weapon with weaponry would become useful as you get envenom and such, but that would only help with PvP. From my understanding of it all? You will likely be weaker than someone with a class but it's still viable and there are plenty of RP reasons to go this route if you just get creative. Maybe your father was a blacksmith and he taught you how to use Warhammers and Halberds. Maybe you come from a sentinel family or you survived on your own in the woods long enough that you are accustomed to their weaponry but you are tired of the forests so you choose the comfort of a city. I would probably do: Weaponry, Survival, Riding (I know it has some utility for dodginess and gets you things like trample and what not). Then probably vision (a lot of useful skills) and tattoos.) For a good miniskill, I would pick up inkmilling for CANVAS and to give yourself a little bit of a tradeskill and some extra reason to hunt. This is all my opinion if I was making a character that was classless.

Addama

I take back what I said before - you can RP classless and it even opens up some avenues.

I still hold that PVP as classless has to be a miserable, pointless, and unappealing prospect.

Amarillys

I agree with that.

Amarillys

I should note in the RP, one of the big reasons as I mentioned but didn't explain, for me, it would be hard to come up with a legitimate reason to RP that isn't focused around weapon choice. Considering you can use everything else while classed, there is little reason to not pick a class besides weapons. So I think the hardest part to playing a truly classless character would be fighting off the urge to pick up a class constantly. As for PvP, you could actually do it while classless with one trick. Hunt until dragon. HUNT HUNT HUNT! Technically dragon takes place of a class, but... well, it's kind of a cheat, but it works and from what I hear does decent in PvP. I'mma shut up now. Sorry.

Addama

Since Dragon is a class, yeah, you wouldn't be classless.

Amarillys

It's also a race, so I think it's acceptable :P Your lesser form would still be classless :P 

Achilles

Buy a lot of firelash enchanted rings, go crazy with those.

Amarillys

Oooh, I forgot about using enchantments. You would definitely want those!

Kafziel

AFAIK brawling doesn't scale with target HP anymore, and even when it did it was pretty much trash because of the accuracy

Sena

Kafziel is right, brawling no longer scales with health, and even when it did it was useless except for newbies because it could rarely hit stronger denizens.

At the moment, using weaponry for bashing is actually better than most class bashing attacks (the exceptions being the classes that use weaponry for their bashing, knights/bards/serpents, as well as artied priests/jesters). So in terms of PvE offence, being classless won't be a hindrance at all, though most classes have some defensive abilities you'll miss.

Once the weaponry changes go through and weapon stats are static instead of random, that will probably change.

Nim

Once trade skills are legitimately separated, classless merchants could also be an option depending on how they do it. If you focused on trade skills instead of bashing though, you'd have a tough time leveling up and such, and being a merchant in Achaea sounds like it's a special brand of suffering. Still completely doable, and in fact even right now with gathering and licensed crafts for example.

Antreus

Sena said:

Kafziel is right, brawling no longer scales with health, and even when it did it was useless except for newbies because it could rarely hit stronger denizens.

At the moment, using weaponry for bashing is actually better than most class bashing attacks (the exceptions being the classes that use weaponry for their bashing, knights/bards/serpents, as well as artied priests/jesters). So in terms of PvE offence, being classless won't be a hindrance at all, though most classes have some defensive abilities you'll miss.

Once the weaponry changes go through and weapon stats are static instead of random, that will probably change.

Could you elaborate on this a bit more.. this is the first time I've heard anything regarding weapon stats becoming static.

Sena

When the knight changes happen (or maybe before that, not entirely sure), there will be no randomness in forged weapon stats. That was already done on the test server, all forged scimitars were 55/164/225, all forged flails were 137/164/164, etc. (those numbers might be changed). The same will happen for armour.

There's no specific release date for those changes, but it should be fairly soon (I'd guess before the end of the year, maybe January-February).

Mizik

Combat, no shot.

Bashing, absolutely. As a Blademaster, even after adjustments, I'm much better off jabbing with a dagger than using drawslash to hunt. You can also wear better armour and wield a shield.

Arador

I hunt in dragon with a rapier and shield. Damage over time just about evens out with gut but the lighter faster attacks are more efficient.

Non classed hunting is certainly viable and good enough.

Klendathu

Arador said:

I hunt in dragon with a rapier and shield. Damage over time just about evens out with gut but the lighter faster attacks are more efficient.

Non classed hunting is certainly viable and good enough.

What stats are the rapier?

Arador

SP

Klendathu

Oh, interesting, might try that then

Antreus

Wait a second, Arador said:

I hunt in dragon with a rapier and shield. Damage over time just about evens out with gut but the lighter faster attacks are more efficient.

Non classed hunting is certainly viable and good enough.

So since denizen damage was normalized somewhat, faster attacks end up being marginally better due to higher crit rates higher up? Would it then be fitting to equip yourself with the crit damage trait? Is there some sort of obsolesence curve we're dealing with, depending on the class attack? I am using Educe Iron with 14 intelligence and Quick-Witted, but I don't see it getting outclassed by a weapon anytime soon...

Oh gosh, I just read that you were a dragon. That extra strength surely helps no doubt. I guess I"ll leave my observation for posterity if it can be of any further insight in another context.

Antreus

Mizik said:

Combat, no shot.

Bashing, absolutely. As a Blademaster, even after adjustments, I'm much better off jabbing with a dagger than using drawslash to hunt. You can also wear better armour and wield a shield.

How is it you find using an obsidian dagger to field you more damage than your blademaster ability which from what I am aware is decent damage for PvE? What is your level of experience and fielded traits presently?

Antreus

Nim said:

Once trade skills are legitimately separated, classless merchants could also be an option depending on how they do it. If you focused on trade skills instead of bashing though, you'd have a tough time leveling up and such, and being a merchant in Achaea sounds like it's a special brand of suffering. Still completely doable, and in fact even right now with gathering and licensed crafts for example.

But with that added coin, you could potentially hire a mercenary, and use vodun or puppetry as your only combat and use Leech. Paired with Elite membership, not bad?

Addama

Antreus said:

Nim said:

Once trade skills are legitimately separated, classless merchants could also be an option depending on how they do it. If you focused on trade skills instead of bashing though, you'd have a tough time leveling up and such, and being a merchant in Achaea sounds like it's a special brand of suffering. Still completely doable, and in fact even right now with gathering and licensed crafts for example.

But with that added coin, you could potentially hire a mercenary, and use vodun or puppetry as your only combat and use Leech. Paired with Elite membership, not bad?

Vodun and Puppetry aren't being turned into trade skills.

Hiring is not PVP.  You can't hire somebody to win a Rampage or a spar for you.

And Elite membership doesn't make you any better at combat.

E: We might choose to debate whether classless can PVE or RP effectively, but PVP is an absolute non-starter.  Like, no.  No no no no no.  Nope.  Negative.  Not even worth the conversation.

Amarillys

I think it could work in PvP but only in raid scenarios where bashing someone in the face with a warhammer when you have 10 other people blasting away at the same person could help. Or use a polearm for an extra venom. Solo? Smaller groups? I agree, there's no way that could ever be effective. I mean, hell, just with iron and temper, I can't beat anyone 1v1. I think you could pull off hunting just fine, and there's a -lot- of RP love you could find, but don't expect to do anything outside of hit someone in the face to help a large group of allies.

Sena

Antreus said:

 I am using Educe Iron with 14 intelligence and Quick-Witted, but I don't see it getting outclassed by a weapon anytime soon...

Oh gosh, I just read that you were a dragon. That extra strength surely helps no doubt. I guess I"ll leave my observation for posterity if it can be of any further insight in another context.

If you have quick-witted and more int than strength, educe iron will be better than cheap rapiers, you'd need something close to a soulpiercer (90 damage and 228 speed) for a rapier to be better. I don't have the damage formulae for other weapon types though, there are probably better choices than rapiers. Educe iron also has more artefacts available (collar, sash, and diadem, compared to just gauntlets for weapons), so with those you're almost always better off sticking with your class attack. The same is true of other int/equilibrium-based classes.

Strength/balance-based classes (like blademaster, druid, sentinel, monk, unartied priest) are usually better off using weapons than their class attacks though. Monks and blademasters especially, since they can't use shields with their class attacks, so using weaponry instead gives both an offensive and defensive boost.

Eld

Sena said:

Antreus said:

 I am using Educe Iron with 14 intelligence and Quick-Witted, but I don't see it getting outclassed by a weapon anytime soon...

Oh gosh, I just read that you were a dragon. That extra strength surely helps no doubt. I guess I"ll leave my observation for posterity if it can be of any further insight in another context.

If you have quick-witted and more int than strength, educe iron will be better than cheap rapiers, you'd need something close to a soulpiercer (90 damage and 228 speed) for a rapier to be better. I don't have the damage formulae for other weapon types though, there are probably better choices than rapiers. Educe iron also has more artefacts available (collar, sash, and diadem, compared to just gauntlets for weapons), so with those you're almost always better off sticking with your class attack. The same is true of other int/equilibrium-based classes.

Strength/balance-based classes (like blademaster, druid, sentinel, monk, unartied priest) are usually better off using weapons than their class attacks though. Monks and blademasters especially, since they can't use shields with their class attacks, so using weaponry instead gives both an offensive and defensive boost.

Bolded is only true of monks, who can wield shields, but can't attack with that hand while doing so. Blademasters can't wield shields to begin with.

Sena

Oh, that's right.

Klendathu

Eld said:

Sena said:

Strength/balance-based classes (like blademaster, druid, sentinel, monk, unartied priest) are usually better off using weapons than their class attacks though. Monks and blademasters especially, since they can't use shields with their class attacks, so using weaponry instead gives both an offensive and defensive boost.

Bolded is only true of monks, who can wield shields, but can't attack with that either hand while doing so. Blademasters can't wield shields to begin with.

FTFY