New denizen change....

Jukilian

Then every denizen goes and buys a ring of flying, or learns high leap from a blademaster.

Sanek

Cynlael said:
Yes, yes it is. Considering they've stated they want proper AI. Primary target is now whoever's dealt the most damage to the mob; something that should've happened a long, long time ago. If needing to think when group bashing is something that turns you off, then I really don't know what to tell you... Don't attack if you don't want to run the risk of something chasing you? *shrug*

It is not the needing to think, it is just that now pretty much the only viable way of group hunting is hunting where the highest damage can tank it all, the group up to tackle harder areas becomes a lot less important, and considering the main damage is already tanking it all, he might as well solo it for more exp.

Sarapis

There's going to be a period of adjustment here, both on the side of players and on our side. These recent changes represent a lot of behind the scenes changes and I'm positive we'll have to adjust things. Similarly, I'm positive many of you will have to adjust your bashing patterns. Change happens.

The goal is to keep the average rewards per minute spent bashing similar though, so if a mob becomes harder to bash, the xp/gold should go up. In practice, getting this right is actually really hard, bringing us back to the fact that we'll definitely have to further adjust things on the back end.

The main goal with these changes was to give mobs a greater range of things they can do to allow us to make bashing require more than simply f1 f1 f1 f1 f1 f1. So while this phase (phase 4 of changes to how mob combat works) was about increasing mob intelligence (though they're still very dumb) and capability, the next is all about increasing player capability vs. mobs. We're going to ensure every class has multiple attacks that are useful while mob bashing to reduce (though it won't remove) the monotony associated with bashing. Think things like crowd control, debuffs, etc. 

The phase after that is going to be about making player vs. mob fights on average be longer so that there's actually the opportunity to do things to a mob. If you simply one-hit mobs, there is no real chance for a battle to be interesting at all, though most normal mobs are still going to be pretty quick fights by necessity.

You might be interested to know that one of the primary 'problems' with making mob bashing better is how fast players heal. Since you can heal yourselves in a very short period of time, it makes creating more interesting mob combat really hard, and does ultimately limit what we can do compared to most MMOs where it's largely about health attrition. That's not something we can easily change though, as the entire PvP system is built around being able to heal your health quickly, and changing that would be the equivalent of having to substantially change every class in the game, which isn't going to happen.

Klendathu

All the people complained that bashing was too boring, look, it's now more difficult / interesting. Perhaps you'll actually have to engage with it, rather than watching Netflix while you bash.

Sarapis

To be fair, the risk is that we make it more difficult without being more interesting, which would be a net loss, though similarly there's a large difference between how people who have played Achaea for 5+ years perceive things and how new players perceive things. The former may find something lame while the latter may find it interesting or vice-versa.

Cynlael

Give incinerate mechanic to mobs pls. Would certainly make bashing more 'interesting'

Samanthya

Thanks for the feedback @Sarapis! Very much appreciated and what I was looking for! It let's me know to spend the next few days doing politics and house things while still having hope that this is going to be adjusted and not a finalized state of how bashing is to be which is what my fear was(been away from Achaea for a few years so not sure if you guys had completed all the testing in the back of things and liked how it was and went with it, or if this was what I was -hoping- and would be a sent out change that will still receive tweaking as feedback is given)

Aktillum

Went hunting to try out the changes, but was disappointed they only apply to mobs who already chase. Was hoping this applied to all mobs, would be so hysterical to kite a group of 10 sidhe knights or something.

Synbios

There should be a world-wide message that appears when you are chased by 10 or more non-loyal denizens:

As Synbios runs towards the hills, a veritable horde of enemies after his hills, you swear that miniature saxophones are playing an upbeat tune.

Deathsight:
Synbios has been slain by the might of a horde of villains wearing fake monster costumes that were planning to scare off intruders from some valuable farmland so they can buy it for cheap. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for that meddling eldritch abomination.

Herenicus

Synbios said:

There should be a world-wide message that appears when you are chased by 10 or more non-loyal denizens:

http://youtu.be/MLctf4o6feQ

Melodie

- Loyal denizens that can be ordered to kill other adventurers should now be much better at remembering their targets.

Does this mean apostate fiend is finally working correctly?

I look forward to testing out the changes when I get home, they look fun!

Siduri

I don't know, maybe the issue met by @Samanthya could be mitigated by making the monsters who actually have been hit by one of the group member chase?
If the group spreads up their targets, they'll be followed, if a player uses one of these upcoming AoE attacks, he's calling a big chase, and if you're just hitting one of the denizens, only this one will give chase?

Jhaeli

As I started reading this thread, my first thought was that "This isn't -it-, there will be changes," and Sarapis outlined that clearly in his reply. Most the administration used to play too and you can usually rely on them to make the changes fun, even if it takes some tweaking.

Personally, my hope is that ratio of time invested to rewards reaped will, at the very least, stay consistent. Bashing is already tedious for those who are less than keen on it, and while increasing the difficulty will put some zip back into it, it'd be nice if - overall - reaching 80 or 90 didn't really take any longer than it already does, for example.

Sarapis

Yep, that's the idea @Jhaeli. There's no need to increase the amount of time required to bash. We just want to give you more ways/options in fights with mobs to make them less monotonous. 

@Samanthya Going to be more than a few days to get this right! (Especially as I'm on vacation currently.) We've made a lot of system-wide alterations, but the hard part is then figuring out which individual denizens/types-of-denizens need individual alternations. We also created a bunch of new capability for denizens in general that you haven't seen yet, as they'll require setting individually on denizens, like the capability to track to the clouds (that artie wings reach), etc.

Ulrike

This thread made me worry that bashing would get super hard. So far it hasn't affected things much for me. It's actually a little easier to kite following denizens if you are smart about it.

I'm a dragon with a few arties, YMMV, etc. etc., but this change isn't as big a deal as it looked.

Alaskar

Sarapis said:

Yep, that's the idea @Jhaeli. There's no need to increase the amount of time required to bash. We just want to give you more ways/options in fights with mobs to make them less monotonous. 

@Samanthya Going to be more than a few days to get this right! (Especially as I'm on vacation currently.) We've made a lot of system-wide alterations, but the hard part is then figuring out which individual denizens/types-of-denizens need individual alternations. We also created a bunch of new capability for denizens in general that you haven't seen yet, as they'll require setting individually on denizens, like the capability to track to the clouds (that artie wings reach), etc


Yes. And I hope all honors mobs have that. Because the idea of the Ur'Vampires sitting at clouds is awesome.

Sarapis

The idea is to try to make bashing denizens harder in the sense that more tactics get required, but the idea is not to make the amount of reward you get per minute of bashing less. Assuming we manage to get it right, it'll be a win all around I think.

Samanthya

@Sarapis‌ thanks a ton for the feedback, I've been away for some time and forgot how things are done here. I'm now used to live changes being how it's meant to be and it's either deal or leave. Hearing all you've said gives me hope and sounds like it could be an interesting change.

Santar

If you're going to get all worked up everytime the Achaea administration makes questionably redonkulous changes that you disagree with, you're going to have a rough time here.

Atalkez

Chase to clouds? Can we prop totem on big Z then?

Erhon

While I know that I'm not entitled to be able to kill things easily, it has been a little off since the change. At least from my perspective, it seems that the denizens can hit and chase without any sort of slowdown for balance/eq lag, where adventurers can only do things if they have both. A pack of denizens following you can chase you through rooms and strike as soon as they come in and still follow, which creates a major horde when you run into other chasers. I don't mind being chased, but being chased down by a mob that doesn't have to worry about keeping balance or equilibrim to move between strikes creates a steamroller that you can only hope to outpace. 

Jacen

The new changes have actually sped up my bashing a little. I'm not a hardcore basher and at the moment, I'm only hitting 3 or 4 areas when I do go out and bash, but bashing the one area I hit that chases (Moghedu) has gotten faster, since its quicker to draw off a single mob. 

Trilliana

All I know is when I ran for someone in Dun Fortress and got chased out of the valley by a bunch of Orcs... that's scary as heck

Sarapis

Erhon said:

While I know that I'm not entitled to be able to kill things easily, it has been a little off since the change. At least from my perspective, it seems that the denizens can hit and chase without any sort of slowdown for balance/eq lag, where adventurers can only do things if they have both. A pack of denizens following you can chase you through rooms and strike as soon as they come in and still follow, which creates a major horde when you run into other chasers. I don't mind being chased, but being chased down by a mob that doesn't have to worry about keeping balance or equilibrim to move between strikes creates a steamroller that you can only hope to outpace. 

Hmm, is a good point, although they also move at half the max speed of unartied players. We'll definitely look into that.

Austere

Sarapis said:

Erhon said:

While I know that I'm not entitled to be able to kill things easily, it has been a little off since the change. At least from my perspective, it seems that the denizens can hit and chase without any sort of slowdown for balance/eq lag, where adventurers can only do things if they have both. A pack of denizens following you can chase you through rooms and strike as soon as they come in and still follow, which creates a major horde when you run into other chasers. I don't mind being chased, but being chased down by a mob that doesn't have to worry about keeping balance or equilibrim to move between strikes creates a steamroller that you can only hope to outpace. 

Hmm, is a good point, although they also move at half the max speed of unartied players. We'll definitely look into that.

Tell that to Ugrach.  That guy is way quicker than half speed. 

Edit: @Ugrach.. I didn't want him to think I was talking shit behind his back and decide to come give me what for. 

Mizik

I died to mhun knights and didn't like it.

Dunn

That's not what you told me last night.

Vaehl

knight*

Alaskar

It may have been said somewhere, but are we going to get abilities that allow us to hinder denizens or weaken them, etc?

Klendathu

Alaskar said:

It may have been said somewhere, but are we going to get abilities that allow us to hinder denizens or weaken them, etc?

They don't run around when they're dead...