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Commodities Acquisition

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  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,705 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    What a coincidence, Kini, I'm paying 105-110 per for bulk! Get me 10k and I'll fund your fleet so hard.

  • AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jules said:

    Cooper, I've heard the "but artefact weapons have great to-hit, forging is fine (as I go make my bulk rapier order with Trey)" argument countless times over the years.  Only in the past year or two have people been backing off it a little, mainly thanks to Antonius and Rangor publicly discounting the old to-hit argument.  Still, arties vs forged is only one part it.  

    What argument? To-hit being awes  ome on artifact rapiers? Or needing to be higher than 150+ to be tangible on forged goods? The reason that it's a very nice perk is quite simple : For a combat knight, you need two weapons. Left hand and a right hand. Left hand is (generally) higher to-hit at the sacrifice of either damage or speed, often damage.  Your right hand is (generally) higher damage and speed, and less to-hit, as anything above 460 for a combined total is virtually impossible to forge out. Just never happens, like, ever. Using this combo allows you to DSL with a (reasonably) high accuracy, and as long as your Left hand uses CURARE (paralysis) venom, your right hand's to-hit doesn't matter, as it CAN'T miss.   Artifact rapiers make it nice because you can start playing with fun venoms, Epteth/Epseth combos, and not worry about missing that second slash!

    If 235-240+ rapiers are what a knight needs, fine, balance everything around that, but do it in a way that most people have access to something that works without heroic forging efforts, and where people who are willing to pay more get something better, both in terms of forged, and certainly artefact goods - within reason.  


    Without a doubt, but it's a bit of a dilemma. It's like Monk. Unartifacted, they're quite squishy and lackluster. With artifacts, they scale amazingly...

    Much is the same in terms of Knight balances. You simply can't tailor a class to work 'reasonably well' with common weapons (70/150/223), and then quickly nerf it when Salik spends almost three months straight forging a twin set of 247 speed rapiers that turn his DSL into a 1.3 second balance. All of a sudden, Salik was overpowered, and the problem was shown out in the open (and snubbed via an alternative method, with changes that soon followed)

    One "pretty good" rapier by current game standards shouldn't take hours and mountains of steel to create, but it does, exactly because determined forgers have been engaged in mutually assured probability madness for years now (which to be fair, they do because they *can*).  People *have* to have 240 rapiers because forgers continue to will them into existence, and they then become an in-game standard.  

    I agree with this to an extent. Achaea, on a combat level, has three metrics. 1.) Afflictions Vs. Systems

    2.) Prep vs. Momentum

    3.) Blind, retarded damage.


    In order for, say,@Trey, to not suck at Afflicting, and to be as top-tier as he can be, he NEEDS rapiers that are at least 239 speed to afflict. He can't operate without, so he gruffs up and forges out 5,000 rapiers in order to have these - at a cost of around 357 credits worth of steel, because 357 credits < 1600 credits for a lackluster speed Level 3 Artifact.

    My fondest hope is that they'll get rid of probability entirely so that you buy weapons that have certain stats, based on quality tiers, perhaps with some allowance to move a few points around as you like, but you'd always know exactly what you're buying, no chance involved.  

    If I may, I'd like to dissect your post (however this might not be the best metric for it).

    My edits are noted above in bold italic. Hopefully that helps explain things!

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

     -Albert Einstein

    Jules
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Yeah, the argument was always exactly what you're scratching your head asking "wait, is she really saying what I think she's saying"?    

    Me:  "Why do artie rapiers suck so much compared to forged/why are they so slow/shouldn't they be better (i.e. *faster* than forged")? 

    Forging Peeps: "Artie rapiers don't suck, the to-hit is soooooo good, and the damage is nice, they're totally worth it".  Oh, they'd also say that they don't decay, to which my reply was "awesome, so this shitty sword won't decay".  What a deal.  

    Whenever the topic came up, it pretty much went *exactly* like that for years, until more recently when a few actual combatants chimed in and said "umm, no guys, sure the to-hit is nice, but you're full of it, we really do care about that speed" (duh).  

    That is why it was so incredibly frustrating, and why I am pretty much over the moon right now.  

    Anyway, yes, Salik is such an amazing argument against probability.  And Salik is just a slightly crazier, more forum banned version of all our uber forgers over the years.  Having to account for uber forgers (or even just really lucky ones) is exactly why I as a non-com can understand the basic problem in this case.  Even with diminishing returns, if everything is balanced around the most extreme outlier weapons, you're right, now forgers really do have to keep at it like madmen to produce a few "viable" weapons.  Meanwhile, most of the game apparently has largely ineffectual weapons (even if we actually knew how to use them), and no one wants arties because they're an even shittier deal.






  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Supply and demand based in part on the massive amount of demand cultivated by the Mhaldor-Eleusis war. Ice doesn't need touching - it'll go back to being normal once this thing is done and gone again.

    Steel and obsidian were legitimate issues. Ice? Not so much.

    SiduriRispok
  • RispokRispok Member Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Daeir said:

    Supply and demand based in part on the massive amount of demand cultivated by the Mhaldor-Eleusis war. Ice doesn't need touching - it'll go back to being normal once this thing is done and gone again.

    Steel and obsidian were legitimate issues. Ice? Not so much.

    Ice should be sold in more than one location. Falaq?

    Lisbethae
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,705 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Rispok said:
    The concern about ice is mostly for the sake of enchanters. They need it to make... Stuff and things. I don't enchant, but I run a trade ministry. How am I supposed to supply my city with enchanting commodities if there is only one shop that is being vaporised because of forestal conflict?

    While I fully understand that @Trey has rifts full of it to massage his hemorrhoids, this is still a legitimate concern for the average enchanter.

    Oh I agree that it's a legit concern, I just wanted to make you scowl for a moment, Snidely Whiplash style.

  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,082 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I suspect even if it were sold in more than one place, the situation would not change all that much during this war.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    TharvisMelodieJhaeli
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,760 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Provide proof, Jules. I've been on the forums and in game much longer than you have, and I have never heard the argument that artie weapons are better for Knights than forged ones. *from a credible/reliable/knowledgeable source

    My character was a Knight for hundreds of years and I'm one of the most outspoken people on the forums and have personally said that forged weapons are superior because of the speed.


    Edit: Just google something like 'cooper artie rapier achaea' or 'artie rapier achaea' or 'forged rapier achaea' and you can see tons and tons of posts from years back where people say that forged weapons are better. And, hilariously (because Antonius is one of the people you've pointed out as being pro-forged rapier), Antonius defending artefact rapiers.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2014

    No no no.  I am completely on Antonius' "side" here.  Not opposing him.  Not at all.  I don't understand why you're thinking that, but whatever the reason, no, I am agreeing with Antonius.  But the whole forging, and especially forging vs. arties thing goes back *years* for me.

      

    Here are a couple of very old threads (although it's clear from reading them that this isn't even quite the beginning).  I don't even see you in them, and it's possible you and I never argued about this back then (yay!), but these sort of give an idea of just how long this has gone on.  Over the years, there have been more iterations of this, basically.  Please don't ask me to find them all though, heh.  


    Here's a fun one where people are actually accusing Jules of being "artied" because she spent 700 credits on those incredibly shitty Level 1 rapiers that no one should *ever* buy (or really, any artie rapiers).  Caine and Tuerney are wonderful and helpful in this thread.  

    http://www.achaea.com/forum/artie-swords

    Here's an interesting discussion where people simultaneously defend how "great" artie rapiers are while insisting that what is possible with forging shouldn't be changed, at all, and also basically calling Jules a sucker for buying those artie rapiers (that are so great).  What?

    http://drupal.achaea.com/forum/fix-for-artie-rapiers


    Kinilan from that thread:  

    "NO! Don't nerf forging! It's bad enough as is! You only get suh crazy high stat weapons with alot of luck. Now if say the asp effect was lowered in price arti-weapons would look better. But normal weapons can be stolen and they only last 250 days. Arti-weapons last forever and can't be stolen. The only good thing about foring is that you CAN get such great arms and armour. If forging gets nerfed so that arti-weapons are the best ever then the skill itself will just die. Dropping 300 credits to make fullplate just isn't worth it. It would work out cheaper to never touch the skill and use gold to byuy credits and get some arti-weapons rather then spend the money to trans the skill and then even more money and time to forge something you know won't go beyond value X".


    And here's one that starts with someone suggesting forged weapons should be repairable (heh).  It goes from there.  It's great that people at least get that this really would be taking things too far, but most still don't get that what matters is that these decaying uber weapons area constantly replenished by determined forgers, period.  

    http://drupal.achaea.com/forum/weapons-0


    So yeah, for *years* after that, pretty much the same arguments whenever it came up.  


    And here is an example of Antonius dipping his toes in the waters of anti-probability (or at least far less variance in it) early on, although not the thread I was really looking for:  

    http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/13505/#Comment_13505


    And one of the absolute worst things about all of this, as in the post above, is that when things get balanced around those "epic" outlier stats, you really do have to keep forging like a madman (or have an uber forger do it for you) to get what is now the de facto standard.  


  • RispokRispok Member Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    @Jules, make a different thread if you want to continue this diatribe.

    ShirszaeSherazad
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Hey man, if you're going to call me out, call everyone out, not just me.  I'd be fine with it being moved, either way.

  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,760 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014

    Sorry for derailing this thread, but could someone who understands what Jules is arguing lay it out for me (ELI5 style), please? I clearly don't understand what she's meaning because the threads she posted only benefit the points I've been making (that people haven't argued that artefact weapons are better than forged ones - in the first thread she posted, she's the one arguing that forged weapons are better...).


    Edit: After re-reading a few times I think I might understand. Will continue in PMs.


    Jules
  • AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    I will give you this, Level 1 artifact rapiers are, without a doubt, absolutely garbage - even to non-combatants. 

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

     -Albert Einstein

    ShirszaeJhaeliBluef
  • RispokRispok Member Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    While the price of elemental ice might be down to the bargain basement fee of 513 per, this issue still needs to be addressed. For enchanters, ice is required for Stasis bags, brooch of Thoth, fire resist, icewall, mushroom sigil, waterwalking, and worrystone (might have missed one).

    There needs to be more than one location for sale in addition to restock being changed if it hasn't been already.

    Sybilla
  • RispokRispok Member Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    or we could have to live in a world where RP decisions still have economic, political, and military consequences. Deal with the ice shortage more creatively.

    RP implications are one thing, but a commodity system from 1998 is another.

    Shirszae
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,954 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There should be temporary shortages and huge costs. If the commodity system works in such a way that everything you need is always available and prices are never unreasonable, that's a bad thing.
    Florentino
  • RispokRispok Member Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Trey said:

    Oh I agree that it's a legit concern, I just wanted to make you scowl for a moment, Snidely Whiplash style.

    I am still of the opinion that, despite the Eleusis/Mhaldor conflict, Ice should be available in more than one location. It is perfectly reasonable that prices rise during a war, but it is unreasonable that a commodity is sold in only one locale. People who are forest enemies are unable to get to Tsol'aa reasonably in addition to the manifestly unjust ruling that enchanters must suffer.

    The war depleting commodities is fine, but Ice has been a problem since before the current conflict. As I have previously suggested, Falaq'tor may be an option if the Garden doesn't have a different suggestion.

    Sybilla
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    No, it isn't, since that breeds scarcity, and scarcity begets price.

    Ice has not been an issue to the magnitude that steel or obsidian has, and thus does not need changing. Stop pressing the issue.

    RispokAustere
  • RispokRispok Member Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Having been MinTrade for a while, I know that ice is still an issue worth discussion. I am not suggesting that the rate be increased to the same effect that Obsidian or Steel was, merely suggesting that a single supplier is redonk.

    AustereSybillaSherazadDaeir
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,542 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    One supplier of ice is fine. You should probably look at the amount of ice you're trying to stockpile if you're having trouble sourcing it. Outside of wars, I've never seen ice priced above the minimum in the Aalen, and it's very rare that I've seen it below 250 stock.


    SherazadRispokDaeir
  • LisbethaeLisbethae Member Posts: 176 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Kinilan said:
    Trey said:
    Steel seems to be petering down. I didn't see one village over 200 per today (although the quantities were hit). If we can start leaving the reserve 10 there so the price doesn't jack up so much we should be good! I bought 40 at 121 per earlier.

    I bought 250 at 66 :P

    Oh, you are -that- person. No surprise there.

    TrillianaSiduriKinilan
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