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Comments
Yeah, the argument was always exactly what you're scratching your head asking "wait, is she really saying what I think she's saying"?
Me: "Why do artie rapiers suck so much compared to forged/why are they so slow/shouldn't they be better (i.e. *faster* than forged")?
Forging Peeps: "Artie rapiers don't suck, the to-hit is soooooo good, and the damage is nice, they're totally worth it". Oh, they'd also say that they don't decay, to which my reply was "awesome, so this shitty sword won't decay". What a deal.
Whenever the topic came up, it pretty much went *exactly* like that for years, until more recently when a few actual combatants chimed in and said "umm, no guys, sure the to-hit is nice, but you're full of it, we really do care about that speed" (duh).
That is why it was so incredibly frustrating, and why I am pretty much over the moon right now.
Anyway, yes, Salik is such an amazing argument against probability. And Salik is just a slightly crazier, more forum banned version of all our uber forgers over the years. Having to account for uber forgers (or even just really lucky ones) is exactly why I as a non-com can understand the basic problem in this case. Even with diminishing returns, if everything is balanced around the most extreme outlier weapons, you're right, now forgers really do have to keep at it like madmen to produce a few "viable" weapons. Meanwhile, most of the game apparently has largely ineffectual weapons (even if we actually knew how to use them), and no one wants arties because they're an even shittier deal.
Ice should be sold in more than one location. Falaq?
Oh I agree that it's a legit concern, I just wanted to make you scowl for a moment, Snidely Whiplash style.
I suspect even if it were sold in more than one place, the situation would not change all that much during this war.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
No no no. I am completely on Antonius' "side" here. Not opposing him. Not at all. I don't understand why you're thinking that, but whatever the reason, no, I am agreeing with Antonius. But the whole forging, and especially forging vs. arties thing goes back *years* for me.
Here are a couple of very old threads (although it's clear from reading them that this isn't even quite the beginning). I don't even see you in them, and it's possible you and I never argued about this back then (yay!), but these sort of give an idea of just how long this has gone on. Over the years, there have been more iterations of this, basically. Please don't ask me to find them all though, heh.
Here's a fun one where people are actually accusing Jules of being "artied" because she spent 700 credits on those incredibly shitty Level 1 rapiers that no one should *ever* buy (or really, any artie rapiers). Caine and Tuerney are wonderful and helpful in this thread.
http://www.achaea.com/forum/artie-swords
Here's an interesting discussion where people simultaneously defend how "great" artie rapiers are while insisting that what is possible with forging shouldn't be changed, at all, and also basically calling Jules a sucker for buying those artie rapiers (that are so great). What?
http://drupal.achaea.com/forum/fix-for-artie-rapiers
Kinilan from that thread:
"NO! Don't nerf forging! It's bad enough as is! You only get suh crazy high stat weapons with alot of luck. Now if say the asp effect was lowered in price arti-weapons would look better. But normal weapons can be stolen and they only last 250 days. Arti-weapons last forever and can't be stolen. The only good thing about foring is that you CAN get such great arms and armour. If forging gets nerfed so that arti-weapons are the best ever then the skill itself will just die. Dropping 300 credits to make fullplate just isn't worth it. It would work out cheaper to never touch the skill and use gold to byuy credits and get some arti-weapons rather then spend the money to trans the skill and then even more money and time to forge something you know won't go beyond value X".
And here's one that starts with someone suggesting forged weapons should be repairable (heh). It goes from there. It's great that people at least get that this really would be taking things too far, but most still don't get that what matters is that these decaying uber weapons area constantly replenished by determined forgers, period.
http://drupal.achaea.com/forum/weapons-0
So yeah, for *years* after that, pretty much the same arguments whenever it came up.
And here is an example of Antonius dipping his toes in the waters of anti-probability (or at least far less variance in it) early on, although not the thread I was really looking for:
http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/13505/#Comment_13505
And one of the absolute worst things about all of this, as in the post above, is that when things get balanced around those "epic" outlier stats, you really do have to keep forging like a madman (or have an uber forger do it for you) to get what is now the de facto standard.
@Jules, make a different thread if you want to continue this diatribe.
Hey man, if you're going to call me out, call everyone out, not just me. I'd be fine with it being moved, either way.
Sorry for derailing this thread, but could someone who understands what Jules is arguing lay it out for me (ELI5 style), please? I clearly don't understand what she's meaning because the threads she posted only benefit the points I've been making (that people haven't argued that artefact weapons are better than forged ones - in the first thread she posted, she's the one arguing that forged weapons are better...).
Edit: After re-reading a few times I think I might understand. Will continue in PMs.
I will give you this, Level 1 artifact rapiers are, without a doubt, absolutely garbage - even to non-combatants.
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."
-Albert Einstein
While the price of elemental ice might be down to the bargain basement fee of 513 per, this issue still needs to be addressed. For enchanters, ice is required for Stasis bags, brooch of Thoth, fire resist, icewall, mushroom sigil, waterwalking, and worrystone (might have missed one).
There needs to be more than one location for sale in addition to restock being changed if it hasn't been already.
or we could have to live in a world where RP decisions still have economic, political, and military consequences. Deal with the ice shortage more creatively.
RP implications are one thing, but a commodity system from 1998 is another.
It's the war causing a temporary ice shortage and price spike. Such is the way of economics and politics, etc., and it means the system is working as intended. It has nothing to do with the inherent coding causing a shortage, such as in the case of obsidian (which was addressed).
"Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man."
I am still of the opinion that, despite the Eleusis/Mhaldor conflict, Ice should be available in more than one location. It is perfectly reasonable that prices rise during a war, but it is unreasonable that a commodity is sold in only one locale. People who are forest enemies are unable to get to Tsol'aa reasonably in addition to the manifestly unjust ruling that enchanters must suffer.
The war depleting commodities is fine, but Ice has been a problem since before the current conflict. As I have previously suggested, Falaq'tor may be an option if the Garden doesn't have a different suggestion.
Having been MinTrade for a while, I know that ice is still an issue worth discussion. I am not suggesting that the rate be increased to the same effect that Obsidian or Steel was, merely suggesting that a single supplier is redonk.
One supplier of ice is fine. You should probably look at the amount of ice you're trying to stockpile if you're having trouble sourcing it. Outside of wars, I've never seen ice priced above the minimum in the Aalen, and it's very rare that I've seen it below 250 stock.
Oh, you are -that- person. No surprise there.