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Commodities Acquisition

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  • PainePaine Member Posts: 39 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    I think it's great that Sarapis is responding so well to this thread, and it's making such a difference, but this thread is super borderline to me. My character doesn't all of a sudden know there is more commodity production, but as a player, I'm not going to pretend I didn't just read this thread. I suspect that someone is now trying to game the forums, by buying out ice, at a huge loss, to try to get more ice added in other villages. The whole commodity economy goes through ebbs and flows, where prices spike and settle down, for various reasons. Stability is nice, but it's not going to be stable 100% of the time. Let's not take advantage of Sarapis' willingness to listen to our feedback and make real changes, because I don't think ice is going to stay that high for more than a few days unless someone really likes sinking gold for no good reason.


  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,592 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Paine: Yes and no. It's the Mhaldor-Eleusis war. Eleusis needs ice to rejuvenate the massive exterms, and Mhaldor is overbuying to make sure that Eleusis does not get any.


    image
    AlrenaMelodieTrilliana
  • PainePaine Member Posts: 39 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Yes, I was wrong about someone trying to game the forums. I suspected that ice was being bought out due to rejuvenating exterminated groves, but didn't want to bring that up here, since it's happening in real time, and commenting about it on the forums seems to take away from what's happening in the game.

    I still believe that the beauty of Achaea is conflict. Whether that conflict is hand to hand combat, political conflict, religious conflict, or ECONOMIC conflict, there are lots of ways to compete and create meaningful experiences for everyone involved. You shouldn't go crying to daddy at the first hint of conflict. I got into the commodity side of thing for precisely this reason. Economic warfare. There are very few avenues for this, and it's usually over as soon as it starts, but like any battle, you don't want to be caught unprepared.

    I'll admit though, sometimes conflict is heavily one-sided, and the ways to participate are rather tedious, time-consuming, and flat out annoying. I wish every player involved could come away feeling like they gained something from the conflict and interactions, even if their character lost, but unfortunately there is so much investment in our characters, and certain players use the cheapest tactics to win, that the admins have to step in and make sure that things aren't getting out of hand. 


    Blujixapug
  • AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Sarapis said:

    Yeah, I agree that's pretty ridiculous, and going to going to check with our dev team combat experts. If you guys are only talking about the very high end combatants, well, such is life- got no problem with the very high end people needing rare kick ass equipment to compete with other high-end combatants with rare kick ass equipment.

    If you're talking about your average midbie actually needing that to compete against another average midbie though, or to hunt effectively, that's a different story. 

    @Sarapis - Forgive me for diving a little bit into forging, but it really helps explain the problem we're facing here.

    I run one of the most active forging shops (I think) in Achaea. I spend a pretty retarded amount of time forging - that being said - I can't even give away 219 speed rapiers to anyone who's over level 60 and interested in combat. In order to disembowel someone by breaking legs alone, you need a minimum of 227 speed. (That's assuming you're using queue'd attacks). I can BARELY sell 223 speed rapiers, and (currently) I can't keep any 227's in stock. In order to fight to any effective degree, you need that balance in order to survive on even a midbie level. 


    Now, let's take a look at what (loosely) it takes me to forge out a 227 speed rapier. The highest I've ever seen someone purchase a 227 for is 50k.

    From my estimates, I think that a 227 speed rapier comes along maybe once every 250-300 or so forged rapiers. For the sake of easy conversion, let's presume you get a single 227 every 200 rapiers forged. 


    That's 1000 steel needed to forge. In order to reach that, you need to purchase a minimum of 600 steel. (600 steel will, after 5 total smelt throughs of 'garbage rapiers', yield 995 steel's worth of forgeable commodity):

    Base Steel Bought 600
    Smelt through 1 240
    Smelt through 2 96
    Smelt through 3 38
    Smelt through 4 15
    Smelt through 5 6
    Total usable Steel:    995

    So, assuming that you need 600 steel, purchasing it at 150 gold per (which is honestly cheaper than I can find on a regular basis) - that comes out to 90,000 gold. 

    90,000 gold plus around 9 hours of forging to make a weapon that you can't sell for more than 50k (assuming it's got above average stats).

    Even if you get lucky and make it in half the effort (1 in 100, HA!) - It's still 45,750 gold in steel + 4.5 hours forging non-stop to make a weapon that will, arguably, not even sell for more than 30k. 

    The fun part of all of it is that it's truly supply versus demand, and with the unforeseeable change overnight (to the majority of the player base) in steel prices, its put a strain on the economy in Achaea to where it's began to reach a point of critical exhaustion. Players are now forced to spend upwards of 75k - 100k for a weapon that is, at best, a mid-tier weapon. We're not talking the 82 damage, 239 speed epic rapiers I use personally, we're talking a 70/154/227 rapier. 

    ...and that weapon barely survives the constraints of Knight combat as it sits. To put it in alternative perspective, in order to disembowel (common Knight killing method), both legs need to be prepared. This takes, on average, 12 hits on each leg to prep. That's 6 DSL's per leg, 12 total, at 2 second dsl's (for easy math), that's 24 seconds. Awesome, right? 

    Well... Anyone who static parries changes that 24 seconds to a very wildcard number, depending on how you bypass parry (Which is something virtually every other limb-damage class out there can do). If you do it off of venoms, you can get one hit in every 4 strikes if you use the proper venoms and have decent (227+) rapiers. That changes prep time alone from 24 seconds, to now 60 seconds - pretending everything works flawlessly including your timing, you not facing rebounding or shield, and not being hindered.

    That's just to prep for the attack. You still need to break torso before your disembowel (which is another prep within itself) in order to have any chance at actually killing the target.

    All of that prep work, made barely possible by 227 speed rapiers alone, can be completely ignored if the target tumbles on the first leg break.



    It's with all of this in mind that I say that Forging (and with it, Commodity prices) are broken. The only reason I continue to do it is (very simply) because if I didn't, nobody in Targossas would. It's no longer a profitable profession at all, over the long-term, unless you're one of the luckiest forgers out there. The cost for commodities to yield what the community as a whole considers 'fair / good / excellent' is far more than what the community is willing to pay. 

    Sure, we could give everyone the rhetorical finger and charge a ton, but that doesn't make the problem better. All that does is alienate the average player who simply can't afford to save up 50k for an average set of armour when they're hunting gnolls.

    Right now what you can find are mostly individual item prices in shops that reflect the market of old : the market that every average player can relatively afford. New stock isn't cheap, and the old stuff is drying up very quickly. What I fear is that with things as they are, people will start running their own math and figuring out that the prices things are being sold for aren't sustainable. They have to go up. They can't not... and with that, Achaea's supply of commodities has to as well in order to meet demand. 

    I thank you tenfold @Sarapis for upping production in the villages, hopefully that will infuse a little air into the mix and allow problems to settle a bit. 

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

     -Albert Einstein

    TraelorExelethrilPraxides
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,352 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Syntax:            FORGE FOR DIRK

                       FORGE

                       

    Extra Information: Commodities: 2 Steel


    Details:

    A weapon made for stabbing.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Alternate solution : Go serpent and backstab people while they're bashing.


    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Syntax:            FORGE FOR DIRK

                       FORGE

                       

    Extra Information: Commodities: 2 Steel


    Details:

    A weapon made for stabbing.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Alternate solution : Go serpent and backstab people while they're bashing.


    If the solution is to simply quit one of the three Knight classes as a whole, something's broken.

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

     -Albert Einstein

  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,301 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Exelethril forgot his /s tag.


    Also, @Aelios - not that it helps right this second, but Tecton/Admin have said that a forging rework has been on the books for some time now.


    AeliosBluef
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I'm superbly happy and supremely annoyed at the moment. In one of the commodity shops the price had fallen to 113, the lowest I've seen it since the city improvements started, and mostly within budget. Some asshat had already bought it down to zero though :/

    PaineSherazad
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,926 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    "In order to disembowel someone by breaking legs alone, you need a minimum of 227 speed. (That's assuming you're using queue'd attacks)"

    Only if they have crap latency and aren't using server-side curing, since restoration only takes four seconds to go through and 227 speed rapiers will give you ~4.4 seconds of balance recovery before you're able to impale.

    Aelios
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Grr.  No wonder the pro RNG crowd has been able to keep forged rapiers the way they are (superior to level 3 arties) for so long.  At least this thread seems to be another big nail in the RNG coffin, or at least RNG as we've known it.  

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:

    Grr.  No wonder the pro RNG crowd has been able to keep forged rapiers the way they are (superior to level 3 arties) for so long.  At least this thread seems to be another big nail in the RNG coffin, or at least RNG as we've known it.  

    Jules, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but please stop talking about RNG.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Trey, this jig is finally up.  It's taken since like, 2006, but it's up.  

    Like others though, I had no idea that Sarapis had no idea, although in his position, when I think about it, it's at least conceivable.  It's still kind of shocking and funny to see his reactions to the playerbase's expectations for forged weapons, made possible by a long line of incredibly determined forgers.  

    Trey
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I don't know how to explain this properly without making it seem like I'm calling you a fucking idiot, but the problem isn't with forging in and of itself, it's with the mechanics of knights in general requiring weapons of a caliber higher than people can reliably produce. I'm also pretty sure you don't know what 'the jig is up' means. There's no conspiracy or trick here.

    Pretty much the point I'm making is that you need to be a prevalent smith or competent fighter to understand the problem, and as far as I'm aware, you're neither.

    PraxidesMorthifAelios
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,926 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    It's a combination of the two. You can't balance around what forgers can reliably produce for everybody, and then keep the ridiculous outliers that will be produced - even if not reliably - because they will absolutely break combat the moment somebody has them. Then that either doesn't get balanced around and everybody's pissed off about it (except the one or two people who have them), or it does get balanced around and the people at the lower end of the spectrum take unnecessary hits.

    It's the same issue as artefacted versus non-artefacted, but with a much larger variation.

    JulesJhaeliNimBlujixapug
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Even though I am not a combatant, yes, non-combatant really doesn't mean "fucking idiot" in every single case, and this is one of those cases, because it's more of a global concept.  More and more people have finally come around on this issue as they've become adults with jobs who don't have time for this probability crap (and who just might have the money to splurge on artefact weapons if they were really worth it).

    If you're going to balance something around a certain set of numbers, what do you do when you allow occasional wild variations from those stats?  Especially if a segment of the playerbase is hellbent on getting those wild variations?  If we knights really require such fast weapons to be remotely competitive, then forging should produce them more reliably (but without any crazy outliers that are even more uber), and the artefacts should be superior to the forged weapons (not that I want to *have* to spend 3200 credits to be nicely equipped with weapons, mind you).  

  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Jules, please don't post when you're drunk.

    TreyMorthifAelios
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Sarapis is *finally* hearing directly from multiple posters what really happens with forging (and is sort of comically surprised about it).  Of course I'm going to comment on that, but I didn't even start this one.  What is the problem?  Let me enjoy this :)

  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Jules said:

    Like others though, I had no idea that Sarapis had no idea, although in his position, when I think about it, it's at least conceivable.

    Remember that I pretty much had nothing to do with Achaea from about mid-2006 until spring 2012, and basically nothing at all to do with it from 2008-2012 other than the backend accounting, legal, etc.

    I leave most of the combat stuff to Tecton and Makarios, both of whom are much more knowledgeable about it than I am. I know how combat works at a high level, which is good enough, most of the time, to work on systems that touch combat. 

    Jules
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    For a very, very long time the best combatants would have absolutely insisted that "forging is fine, arties have great to-hit" as a united front anyway, because frankly, the top tier combatants mostly liked it that way.  Even for a "fucking idiot", it's kind of telling when people say "arties have great to-hit" while doing massive batch orders in search of the next holy grail 240+ rapier.  Basically, you as admin would have had to be closely watching what happened with artie sales and forging and such (you know, with all your spare time), and said "wait, WTF"?  

    It's only when people like Antonius, Jarrod, and Rangor started to publicly shift their stance that you'd be hearing about this from anyone who has "PK cred", and of course it's always good to listen to those people, because they really do know more than us "fucking idiots", but as with all people, sometimes they're also self-serving.

    Praxides
  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:

    For a very, very long time the best combatants would have absolutely insisted that "forging is fine, arties have great to-hit" as a united front anyway, because frankly, the top tier combatants mostly liked it that way.  Even for a "fucking idiot", it's kind of telling when people say "arties have great to-hit" while doing massive batch orders in search of the next holy grail 240+ rapier.  Basically, you as admin would have had to be closely watching what happened with artie sales and forging and such (you know, with all your spare time), and said "wait, WTF"?  

    It's only when people like Antonius, Jarrod, and Rangor started to publicly shift their stance that you'd be hearing about this from anyone who has "PK cred", and of course it's always good to listen to those people, because they really do know more than us "fucking idiots", but as with all people, sometimes they're also self-serving.

    No, for "a very, very long time" people have been saying forging and knight weapons are broken and for "a very, very long time" the issue has been ignored. Ever since Clem nerfed rapier reults 6-7 years ago and in his usual fashion ignored all the evidence that showed his choice was short sighted and ignorant. This was an admin created state. Adjusted away from a setup where it was possible to get the rapiers with the stats you needed to fight as a knight.

    Every forging change submitted under the original classlead system was rejected, every classlead submited under the new system has been rejected with the exception of smelting. Even after changes to knight combat like the extra writhe time with two broken limbs the issue of dsl speed and the starts required to reach the speeds knights need to pull off their finishing moves was never addressed. You're so far off base with your accusations and so misinformed it is comical.

    There is no player conspiracy here to keep a system that is broken, that has been broken for years. Nobody has ever argued in favour of what we have now and your accusations that people WANT what we have now is why Trey pointed out how ignorant you sound.




    TreyMorthifAeliosTrilliana
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Oh jeez, the pro-probability folks have totally have argued *exactly* what I stated, like a broken record in fact... but whatever.  At least we seem to agree that workable weapons need to be more accessible, and if the only "workable" weapons really are the extreme outliers, that's a problem.  

    Aelios
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    I am completely fine with that.  Get on with it, by all means.  I just wanted to enjoy the moment of this issue *finally* getting the "wait, what?" response from admin, and no less than the Big S at that (although I have a feeling Tecton is in touch with it already).  I read the thread and couldn't believe my eyes.  Lots of big shifts in a variety of areas over the last few years, mostly good ones, and always with a certain contingent absolutely kicking and screaming.  

    Aelios
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rispok said:

    This is not a forging thread. Bitch about ice or gtfo.

    [ 2337] ice


    Austere
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,301 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Jules‌ You've been saying that people have said artefact weapons are fine and good for fighting.


    That's never, ever been the case by high end knights. We've always, always said that artie weapons are shit for high tier fighting (unless you want to just try for straight dsl damage).


    As for your other arguments, I can't really comprehend what you're saying and I haven't been able to get a point out of your posts.


    Trilliana
  • AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    So, about that steel...

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

     -Albert Einstein

  • AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited August 2014

    Cooper said:

    @Jules‌ You've been saying that people have said artefact weapons are fine and good for fighting.


    That's never, ever been the case by high end knights. We've always, always said that artie weapons are shit for high tier fighting (unless you want to just try for straight dsl damage).


    As for your other arguments, I can't really comprehend what you're saying and I haven't been able to get a point out of your posts.

    While true to an extent, I think it's a smidge important to clarify that the only benefit Artifact Rapiers have is the guaranteed to-hit (making venoms other than curare, on the regular, an option) and the insane damage for the speed you're getting. 

    Runed, they're epic rapiers. A little slow, but epic.

    Outside of that though, you'll never ever ever see a talented bard with a Soul Piercer. You'll never see a DSB or Affliction knight with a Soul Piercer (unless they're just arti'd up and dont want to worry about forge decay).


    While it might be a little off topic, it'd be really cool to see forging speed upped a ton. Keep commodity cost at what it is, but just make 'batches' available. (10 rapiers at once, for instance) - you can even keep the "awesome uber stat variances" that are involved. It would vastly increase revenue for IRE in terms of Credit Purchases, it'd increase a retarded amount of commodity use, and players could get the weapons and the sort they're after, pending they pay. 

    I'm not sure how it would tie in to the commodity systems, but... just an idea.

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

     -Albert Einstein

    Jules
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Steel seems to be petering down. I didn't see one village over 200 per today (although the quantities were hit). If we can start leaving the reserve 10 there so the price doesn't jack up so much we should be good! I bought 40 at 121 per earlier.

    AeliosSiduri
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Cooper, I've heard the "but artefact weapons have great to-hit, forging is fine (as I go make my bulk rapier order with Trey)" argument countless times over the years.  Only in the past year or two have people been backing off it a little, mainly thanks to Antonius and Rangor publicly discounting the old to-hit argument.  Still, arties vs forged is only one part it.  

    If 235-240+ rapiers are what a knight needs, fine, balance everything around that, but do it in a way that most people have access to something that works without heroic forging efforts, and where people who are willing to pay more get something better, both in terms of forged, and certainly artefact goods - within reason.  

    One "pretty good" rapier by current game standards shouldn't take hours and mountains of steel to create, but it does, exactly because determined forgers have been engaged in mutually assured probability madness for years now (which to be fair, they do because they *can*).  People *have* to have 240 rapiers because forgers continue to will them into existence, and they then become an in-game standard.  

    My fondest hope is that they'll get rid of probability entirely so that you buy weapons that have certain stats, based on quality tiers, perhaps with some allowance to move a few points around as you like, but you'd always know exactly what you're buying, no chance involved.  

    Trey
  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    Steel seems to be petering down. I didn't see one village over 200 per today (although the quantities were hit). If we can start leaving the reserve 10 there so the price doesn't jack up so much we should be good! I bought 40 at 121 per earlier.

    I bought 250 at 66 :P

    Sherazad
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