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Commodities Acquisition

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  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Nim said:
    Sarapis said:
    Forging something with stats like that should be a once in a blue moon thing.

    No, see, it already is. What you think should be the case is the case, and that is also the problem, because Achaeans are crazy and will get that once in a blue moon thing, and then enough of them get it that you need to balance things around there being a lot of people with these really cool things.

    Well, it just means that those people are going to be better, which isn't different than having arties generally. We'll certainly be adjusting in any case during this process of working on knight changes. 

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,796 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Nim said:
    Sarapis said:
    Forging something with stats like that should be a once in a blue moon thing.

    No, see, it already is. What you think should be the case is the case, and that is also the problem, because Achaeans are crazy and will get that once in a blue moon thing, and then enough of them get it that you need to balance things around there being a lot of people with these really cool things.

    Well, it just means that those people are going to be better, which isn't different than having arties generally. We'll certainly be adjusting in any case during this process of working on knight changes. 

    In the meantime, if you wanted to, oh, I don't know, tweak artefact rapier speed up...


    BluefRispokHalosJules
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Yeah, will be looking at exactly that, @Trey.

    TreyHalosJulesAtalkez
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,796 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Yeah, will be looking at exactly that, @Trey.

    Wow. I actually did not expect that response. It's a warranted change, I think. Back in the day artefact rapiers meant you were godly. Now that curing has evolved to the point that it has, high weapon stats, specifically speed, have become entirely more demanded as a result to keep up.

    Trilliana
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,295 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Sarapis, I legit can't tell if you are trolling or not.


    It's not "high tier" or "top end" knights that need those weapons, it is any knight that wants to compete with server side curing, SVO, or use vivisect/disembowel/damnation. Those abilities are literally (in the literal sense of the word) not possible to use without higher than artefact speed weapons.


    Your point on "why don't you buy from those people then" really, really feels like a troll. You've sent a minimum price cap and quantity on steel that cannot be avoided or worked around. And I quite obviously meant the end goods - forged weapons, herbs, elixirs, etc. and not bulk steel or other comms.


    You're also ignoring the hundreds of hours of player time (again, literally) that people must spend to get these weapons. And no, it's really not optional. Knights -have- to have these high end weapons to even stand a chance fighting.


    PraxidesTrilliana
  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,935 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014

    @Sarapis damnation requires at the very least a pair of 231s with decent to-hit to even have a chance, 235s-239s up your chances (I used 239s), and a pair of 243-247s are ideal. I wouldn't say top tier is accessible without, bare minimum, 231s with good to-hit, preferably 235+, for any knight. Runewardens have a lot more leeway obviously but that's the current situation, and it's not only for damnation.

    For disembowel, you need to be able to dsl at a certain speed in order to doublebreak legs and impale before they finish curing one. If you're too slow, one of two things will happen: possibility 1: they'll just finish curing one leg before you impale, or possibility 2: you'll need to break an arm first with epteth, but then they can just walk away. Even if you manage to impale with double broken legs, it's not going to do much without broken torso, which you definitely won't get unless you're fighting against someone who doesn't know what they're doing. 


    Hope this doesn't come across as snarky or anything, please don't take it that way! Just giving you my perspective as a former paladin that used damnation as a primary kill strat. :)

     i'm a rebel

    PraxidesRakon
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Cooper said:

    Your point on "why don't you buy from those people then" really, really feels like a troll. You've sent a minimum price cap and quantity on steel that cannot be avoided or worked around. And I quite obviously meant the end goods - forged weapons, herbs, elixirs, etc. and not bulk steel or other comms.


    You're also ignoring the hundreds of hours of player time (again, literally) that people must spend to get these weapons. And no, it's really not optional. Knights -have- to have these high end weapons to even stand a chance fighting.

    I don't know what a minimum price cap means to be honest. Price caps refer to capping an otherwise free-floating price at an artificially low price relative to market demand. I did do that with the village comm system, but I don't think any comm has ever come close to hitting its cap, due to the oversupply in the system. Also not sure why you'd have an issue with price caps in that situation if your general complaint is that <x> is too expensive, and we definitely don't mandate price caps for player to player sales, so I'm not sure what you mean. Clarify?

    As for time, let's keep this on topic please. The time that goes into forging itself isn't related to acquiring commodities and isn't related to this thread. Valid topic for another thread, though we're also already aware of the time sinkiness of forging. 




  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Tesha said:


    Hope this doesn't come across as snarky or anything, please don't take it that way! Just giving you my perspective as a former paladin that used damnation as a primary kill strat. :)

    Not at all!

  • LisbethaeLisbethae ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 176 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    @Sarapis I have skimmed the thread, and you keep mentioning hundreds (at one point 500, at another 300 and some) of steel being in the villages. Steel is sold by 5 village commodity shops, if we keep the minimum in there so that they don't raise the price, that's 250 left in the shops. Cyrene goes through thousands of steel each IC year, the most sold while I've been Minister was in the tens of thousands. I had computer problems and was gone for about 3 years and came back to over 30k less steel. This was at the beginning of the improvements eating comms change, but still!

    I know that 300 seems like a lot, but not when 250 should remain there and we need thousands. When the shops are full up and I have no competition for it, I can get 800 steel every 2 hours without sailing, but try to fill up six city shops as well as enterprising forgers and casual commodity purchasers and the math gets more complex.

    High village prices make hoarders less likely to sell their hoarded commodities, for fear they will need some and it will be sky high. It was rumored that a now defunct House had over 20k obsidian, and yet no one from that House has any to enchant with, it leaves me to wonder if the lion's share of the hoarded commodities aren't in the rifts of the dormant.

    Anyway, I'd love for more comms to be available. 

    Just a few random thoughts that might add to the discussion. Thanks to @Siduri for starting the thread.

    SarapisSiduriTrillianaValaria
  • RispokRispok ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean Member Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Sarapis said:

    Yeah, I agree that's pretty ridiculous, and going to going to check with our dev team combat experts. If you guys are only talking about the very high end combatants, well, such is life- got no problem with the very high end people needing rare kick ass equipment to compete with other high-end combatants with rare kick ass equipment.

    If you're talking about your average midbie actually needing that to compete against another average midbie though, or to hunt effectively, that's a different story. 

    Speed is the most important factor in pve, as it determines your criticals per hour. Damage is nice, and that's why I got artefacts, but speed is still better than anything else. I forget whom it was that said they heard axes are nice... They are mistaken. Even a pair of lv3 axes suck horribly for hunting, it's just too slow.

    To get back on the topic of steel, however, a city (Hashan) needs around 876 steel per in game year. This year, through rather diligent collection, I have gotten 914. The average price was 160.37855579869g. This means that I have a surplus of 38 steel. In order to break even with my coffers, I need to sell that 38 remaining for 3881.578blahblahblah gold per. Yes, I do make some profits from other commodities that lower this slightly, but I think you see the issue I am getting at with some real numbers.

    Oh wait. I run a shop too, because I'm a Runewarden in the Merchants? Haha. Too bad, no forged goods for the city.

    Trilliana
  • TohranTohran ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Everywhere you don't want to be. I'm the anti-Visa!Member Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Lisbethae said:

    @Sarapis I have skimmed the thread, and you keep mentioning hundreds (at one point 500, at another 300 and some) of steel being in the villages. Steel is sold by 5 village commodity shops, if we keep the minimum in there so that they don't raise the price, that's 250 left in the shops. Cyrene goes through thousands of steel each IC year, the most sold while I've been Minister was in the tens of thousands. I had computer problems and was gone for about 3 years and came back to over 30k less steel. This was at the beginning of the improvements eating comms change, but still!

    I know that 300 seems like a lot, but not when 250 should remain there and we need thousands. When the shops are full up and I have no competition for it, I can get 800 steel every 2 hours without sailing, but try to fill up six city shops as well as enterprising forgers and casual commodity purchasers and the math gets more complex.

    High village prices make hoarders less likely to sell their hoarded commodities, for fear they will need some and it will be sky high. It was rumored that a now defunct House had over 20k obsidian, and yet no one from that House has any to enchant with, it leaves me to wonder if the lion's share of the hoarded commodities aren't in the rifts of the dormant.

    Anyway, I'd love for more comms to be available. 

    Just a few random thoughts that might add to the discussion. Thanks to @Siduri for starting the thread.

    The bolded is what I was thinking as well. 190k Obsidian, and 228k Steel seems like quite a lot, considering just how desperate a lot of people are for steel right now. I have a couple hundred in my rift, that Amanu is trying to get me to sell, but I forge armor and weapons for the new cubs free of charge. Which explains why I have no money, even though the shop I help run is doing rather well.

    @Sarapis, is there a way for you to filter out the dormant rifts and see a more accurate depiction of the stock currently in the game?


  • CheirCheir ✭✭ - Stalwart Member Posts: 21 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Tohran said:
    Lisbethae said:



    High village prices make hoarders less likely to sell their hoarded commodities, for fear they will need some and it will be sky high. It was rumored that a now defunct House had over 20k obsidian, and yet no one from that House has any to enchant with, it leaves me to wonder if the lion's share of the hoarded commodities aren't in the rifts of the dormant.


    The bolded is what I was thinking as well. 190k Obsidian, and 228k Steel seems like quite a lot, considering just how desperate a lot of people are for steel right now. I have a couple hundred in my rift, that Amanu is trying to get me to sell, but I forge armor and weapons for the new cubs free of charge. Which explains why I have no money, even though the shop I help run is doing rather well.

    @Sarapis, is there a way for you to filter out the dormant rifts and see a more accurate depiction of the stock currently in the game?


    Sarapis said:



    I'm not quite sure what you mean about things getting out of hand though. The only comm that was regularly running low was obsidian, and even then, there's over 190,000 obsidian in the game right now, between cities and active players. 228,000+ steel. 




    I think he has filtered out dormant rifts, from his earlier post.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the bulk of it comes from the city stockpiles, though - it wouldn't surprise me if they (particularly the old ones, more so than Targossas) have in the tens of thousands of steel in their reserve piles.  That's entirely speculation, though - rather than being based on any actual facts.

    JhaeliTrilliana
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,592 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Targossas has between 2k to 4k steel in reserves, usually.


    image
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff

    Yeah, that was filtering out dormant players. Only two cities actually have big stockpiles of steel, which account in total for maybe 25% of the 'active' steel out there.

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You should make commodity generation a player-activity affair. A mining skill or something that lets people prospect for high-carbon iron ore and process it into steel bars or something, or any of the other major commodities. Kind of like what Gathering should be, but isn't.
    Halos
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff

    Please read the thread before commenting. ;)

  • LisbethaeLisbethae ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 176 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2014

    Our (Cyrene's) minimum that we keep of everything is the 4 times the maximum we've sold in any one year. Being that that is in the low teens of thousands, it still is a lot. When I had computer problems for 3 IG years, I left 60k steel in the commodity stores. When I came back, even with aides buying and depositing steel continually, we had 30k. So, good thing we had the reserve, right?

    As Trade Minister, I was trying to get it to more than that (so that we'd have commodities for when the world is flooded, which is an integral part of Lis' planning RP), but I can't even keep steel at 2 times the max ever sold very well. I am, at present lower than half what I'd like to have.

    I just counted things up and it looks like the Scimitar takes 492 obsidian per year (it looks like 41 a month). I can't even buy in the double digits of obsidian a month lately. Did I do that math right? Why can't we decide the framework for the Scimitar is made of bone? We have over 4 times the max on bone, we buy it for 1 gold to dissuade people selling it to us, but the amount goes up and up and up.

    Maybe I don't get the reason why we need to bleed the game of comms. Do you have time to explain that, @sarapis?

    That and coal and rope, but rope is already used so :D.


  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff

    @Lisbethae So that when the comm production system goes in, people have to buy from the players producing comms and can't rely on existing stores of comms for the most part. Might be approaching that point with a couple of the comms though it sounds like, insofar as hoarders gonna hoard.

  • LisbethaeLisbethae ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 176 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Things that are hoarded. 

    Gold
    Obsidian
    Steel

    Silver and Ice to a lesser extent.

    Cloth and Leather under those.

    Only ever had problems with Wood and Iron after the change over to commodity usage by the improvements.

  • MorthifMorthif Member Posts: 1,685 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    231 is honestly still to slow. I have 2 235's and I still need to be like .1 secs faster as Human Paladin

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,796 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Morthif said:
    231 is honestly still to slow. I have 2 235's and I still need to be like .1 secs faster as Human Paladin

    Really? Are you not nimble, or what?

  • MorthifMorthif Member Posts: 1,685 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I am. But i still go above 2 secs for most dsl's

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,796 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Morthif said:

    I am. But i still go above 2 secs for most dsl's

    Should still be able to do 'ok' with that, there's just practically no room for error.

  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    You should make commodity generation a player-activity affair. A mining skill or something that lets people prospect for high-carbon iron ore and process it into steel bars or something, or any of the other major commodities. Kind of like what Gathering should be, but isn't.

    This seems like a no-brainer - at first. But after thinking about it for a little while I don't see why it's such a good idea.

    You're removing a goldsink, creating a grind activity, and opening up the door for players to devalue comms because they place no gold value on their labour and charge rock-bottom prices out of 'niceness'.

    Gathering is a great argument for why comm acquisition should remain how it is. There is next to no scarcity build into Gathering, and no other economic balancing factors.

    Remember that with Concoctions and herb harvesting - the system on which Gathering was based - supply was actively controlled to match demand, with herb growth rates being monitored and periodically tweaked upwards or downwards for individual herbs. The economy didn't magically balance itself out and make itself work, it was carefully managed.

    You can solve the problems and make player comm generation work, but I don't think that there's anything inherently better about removing comm shops and making it a player-controlled system. It creates possibilities, like tying resource nodes into an area control/war system, but those same possibilities exist with an NPC comm shop system, like ships buying in bulk from overseas harbours and being looted by pirates. It's also worth being wary because if implementation is flawed and there is an oversupply, and it takes 6 months to recognise that, it's difficult to fix that problem and get uncirculated comms out of people's rifts; the damage to the comm economy could be irreperable.

    PS when are you gonna delete trader's satchels
    image
    Lisbethae
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff

    Don't worry, player comm generation will have both scarcity and gold sinks built into the system from the get-go.

  • LisbethaeLisbethae ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 176 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2014

    Sarapis said:

    Don't worry, player comm generation will have both scarcity and gold sinks built into the system from the get-go.

      :'(   :s



    JosoulBluef
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